So, this is for my campaign and I'm just looking for opinions. IMC it's a given that churches of many lawful gods have hierarchies that span multiple nations, especially the more popular ones. I'm thinking specifically of Heironeous here. He's the most popular god in Bissel, County of Urnst, Furyondy, Gran March, Irongate, Keoland, Nyrond, Shield Lands, and Sterich. He's also pretty popular in Veluna and the Yeomanry. So my specific question is where should the church hierarchy, the sort of Vatican of Heironeous be located. Nyrond seems like a good choice to me. Anyone?
I would think that originally the vatican of Heironeous would have been in the Great Kingdom. So, can Vaticans be moved?
I guess in this case they would have to. Moving to Nyrond at some point seems logical given its position relative to the old GK. However, Nyrond is now in serious decline (depending on your campaign, of course) so would it have moved again. Furyondy seems a strong choice in that case.
I would choose Nyrond but have agitation from the church in Furyondy to have the centre of the religion and its official seat of power moved to Furyondy. The Knights of Holy Shielding would probably see advantages in this as they try and draw support to their banners. This makes the religion more about people than places and opens up some lovely adventure possibilities; intrigue between Nyrond/Furyondy, a raid on the lost original Vatican in the GK and tracking down of relics lost following the GK's descent into hell on Oerth.
If you have access to 2nd edition The Bastion of Faith, it is a supplement strictly for the Religion of Heironeous, and yes its located in Nyrond. In my opionion its an excellent book detailing out the entire Heironeous religion and also provides DMs with ideas on how to create similiar D&D religions using it as a guidline. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
If you have access to 2nd edition The Bastion of Faith, it is a supplement strictly for the Religion of Heironeous, and yes its located in Nyrond. In my opionion its an excellent book detailing out the entire Heironeous religion and also provides DMs with ideas on how to create similiar D&D religions using it as a guidline.
Good call and stole my thunder.... but who better to yield to than the lovely prophet of Istus
Good to see you still lurking in the shadows
In ancient times, the Aerdi subtribe most attuned to Heironeous settled in what became the Kingdom of Thalland, which possibly stretched between the Thelly and Harp rivers. While the kingdom is merely legend today, there may be sacred sites in the area (possibly in the form of lost, hidden dungeons overrun by monsters) of great import to Heironeous's faithful. This region, of course, intentionally overlaps the old Prelacy of Almor (though it extends far into South Province), and I think it was the Bastion of Faith designers intent for Almor to be the holy land of Heironeous just as Medegia ultimately became the holy land of Hextor. Bastion of Faith mentions only the Harp River for Thalland; the Thelly reference comes from the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.
When it comes to looking for "Vaticans" of multinational faiths in the Flanaess, I always look for the priestly states. Thus Medegia is the Vatican of the old, corrupted faith of the Great Kingdom (now dominated by Hextor's priests) and Almor is (before the Wars) the Vatican for everything that was once honorable and good about the Great Kingdom's faith, now fled to more hospitable lands as the Great Kingdom persecutes goodly clerics more and more.
Almor is defined canonically as a ecumenical state, ruled by a council of prelates of a variety of gods. Even so, as a priestly fief independent of other nations, it makes a logical base of operations for the high priests of a variety of good and neutral gods whose followers are no longer welcome in the Great Kingdom, including Heironeous, Pelor, and (until Xavener established the United Kingdom of Ahlissa) probably Zilchus as well.
After the Wars, with Almor sacked and desecrated, obviously the various church hierarchies would have to move their centers of operations, and I think Rel Mord would be the logical place for the Heironeans to go. The Shield Lands are in even worse state after the Wars, and I think Furyondy is too distant and too influenced by the faith of Veluna.
While Nyrond is of course polytheistic, I do think that Heironeous probably serves as the 'ruler of the gods' or celestial monarch in Nyrond's state-sponsored religion. Heironeous in Furyondy's religious view would be more like a great general of the gods, a mighty lord of hosts but ultimately deferential to the define patriarch, Rao.
I think of Nyrond's state religion as essentially the faith of the old Great Kingdom as it was in its glory days before the decline of the House of Rax and the desecration inflicted upon the land by the House of Naelax. While Nyrond as a political and economic entity may not be what it once was and its actions may fall short of true goodness, Heironeous is a big part of its ideals.
I do have trouble with the idea of each god being its own version of the Catholic Church. It seems more realistic to me for the majority of religions (with obvious exceptions like Pholtus's faith, which is intended to be monolatrist) to be polytheistic, bound together by a mixture of nationalism, moral beliefs, eschatology and theology. I suppose that's a matter of personal taste, though, as in a campaign where the gods are extremely proactive in the affairs of their mortal flocks, prone to micromanaging their hierarchies and convinced that mortal faith is a zero-sum game, it might well be reasonable for every god to be a religion to himself. That's not really relevant to Smillan's question, anyway.
My short answer is this: I think the historical center of Heironeous's mortal hierarchy was Almor, but after the Wars it moved to Rel Mord. Regardless of Nyrond's economic decline and relative political instability, I think it suits the Heironeans' purposes adequately.
The idea of them moving to Furyondy isn't bad, though, and I can see Belvor campaigning to bring them to Chendl specifically to emphasize his nation's sovereignty and independence from meddlesome Velunan clerics. I can also see the Furyondian and Nyrondel branches of Heironeous's faith as very different from each other, with only the distance between the two nations preventing their rivalry from degenerating too far. Regardless of which nation plays host to the largest Heironean temple, I can see a lot of bitterness among the flawed mortals on both sides.
I forgot about Almor, so thanks for the reminder, because my campaign is pre-Wars. For some reason I always thought Kevont was a priest of Pelor, but couldn't find a reference to that. It does make more sense that Heironeous would be very strong in pre-Wars Almor.
Thanks to everyone for your input, although I welcome much more.
If you have access to 2nd edition The Bastion of Faith, it is a supplement strictly for the Religion of Heironeous, and yes its located in Nyrond. In my opionion its an excellent book detailing out the entire Heironeous religion and also provides DMs with ideas on how to create similiar D&D religions using it as a guidline.
-It actually allows it to be set in several places (including the City of Greyhawk).
smillan_31 wrote:
I forgot about Almor, so thanks for the reminder, because my campaign is pre-Wars...
-Like you, I run a pre-GW campaign, so you might appreciate that I set it up in Nyrond, specifically Mithat, for the following reasons:
1) It's on the northern rim of Thalland, Ferante's old stomping grounds.
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2) It's safe in Nyrond. I don't want the Bastion getting whacked in CY 584, which would probably happen if you set it up in Almor, barring some serious defense of the place. I considered setting it in on the GK side to avoid that (a la Goldbolt), put I decided that a temple of Heironeous was a bit much. Perhaps you can come up with a rationale which fits, if you prefer.
3) It's at an "adventure crossroads" in my campaign, so PCs can be sent to and from the Bastion, particulalry the clash between the GK and the Iron and Golden Leagues in CY 578-579. This might be neither here nor there to you.
FWIW, I figured the book "as is" is what the Bastion is supposed to be like in CY 591, so to fit it into CY 578, I just back-dated everything 13 years (i.e, some of the NPCs haven't show up yet, the rest are younger, and there are others there which have moved/passed on. It specifically mentions an Abbot Lanark as the previous boss).
I don't have it on me, but you have to modify the background. I think it gives a date of something like CY 278 for the founding, which wouldn't make any sense, so I simply made it CY -278 (or whatever).
I agree that Bastion of Faith would be a great supplement for you to peruse on this issue. As was mentioned previously, several different locations were offered (Nyrond or Furyondy seem appropriate to me).
True that lawful religions are more structured than any others, but bear in mind that religious affiliations are also flavored by the nations and political structures in which they are founded. Thusly, a church of Heironeous in one nation may have a different outlook on a particular issue relating to national defense or the like than another church in a neighboring realm. Likewise, heads of churches may disagree based on personal interpretation or philosophy, much less their own personalities. These could give you all sorts of interesting nuances as a DM as PCs travel from one area to the next.
I do have Bastions of Faith, but it's been a few years since I read it, and at the time I got it I was mainly just mining it for GH history. Thanks for the recommendation, everyone. Not sure where I'm going with this in my campaign, but I'm picking up my Sterich campaign again, the players are heading into Keoland, and the political situation is a big part of the game for me.
Eileen, it's been good hearing from you. I, along with everyone else, have missed you.
If you decide to apply Ragr's suggestion of a conflict between power centers, you might look up the Avignon Papcy (otherwise known as the Babalonian Captivity). It is about a 75 year period in the late 14th and early 15th centuries when the Vatican was moved to Avignon France and only French Popes were chosen. It has an ending that is better than any fiction could ever be.
I think it would provide some great inspiration for such a conflict between the Heironean clergy in Furyondy and Nyrond.
Eileen, it's been good hearing from you. I, along with everyone else, have missed you.
Thank you very much smillian_31 thats really nice to hear. Greyhawk and its fans rule. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
If you decide to apply Ragr's suggestion of a conflict between power centers, you might look up the Avignon Papcy (otherwise known as the Babalonian Captivity). It is about a 75 year period in the late 14th and early 15th centuries when the Vatican was moved to Avignon France and only French Popes were chosen. It has an ending that is better than any fiction could ever be.
I think it would provide some great inspiration for such a conflict between the Heironean clergy in Furyondy and Nyrond.
SirXaris
That sounds like a great link, SX. I might have to check that out. You can't beat a little old-fashioned religious turmoil for game inspiration.
I forgot about Almor, so thanks for the reminder, because my campaign is pre-Wars. For some reason I always thought Kevont was a priest of Pelor, but couldn't find a reference to that. It does make more sense that Heironeous would be very strong in pre-Wars Almor.
Thanks to everyone for your input, although I welcome much more.
FWIW, I think LG canon established that Kevont was a priest of Pholtus. The short-tenured Prelate Anarkin was a priest of Heironeous.
I do have Bastions of Faith, but it's been a few years since I read it, and at the time I got it I was mainly just mining it for GH history. Thanks for the recommendation, everyone. Not sure where I'm going with this in my campaign, but I'm picking up my Sterich campaign again, the players are heading into Keoland, and the political situation is a big part of the game for me...
-If you're playing in the west, and you want to start from scatch, then I guess Heironeous' "vatican" would be in Veluna or Furyondy, but who knows. But I think it would take some work to get Bastion of Faith to fit there, since Thalland was obviously centered around Almor thus my choice of Mithat).
FWIW, in case you use Nyrond, a few "corrections" to Bastion of Faith:
(p. 8) The rise of Thalland and Medegia would have been around CY -303 (342 OP), not CY 303, since it is obvious that the events had to have occured soon after the wanderings, and long before the rise of the Great Kingdom;
(p. 36) Mother Fela would probably have come from the Adri, not the Vesve, due to proximity to Mithat;
(p. 15-16) Mother Annan would have been captured by Orcs in the Bone March as a child, not by Barbarians.
(p. 35) St. Ferrante's Day is the 28th of Patchwall, not the 31st, since there is no such thing in a 28-day calandar.
I'd also recommend toning done the levels of most of the NPCs. In my campaign, it's not the "vatican", so I cut their XP anywhere from 1/2 to 1/5 of stated. You might want to keep many of them "as is", if you're looking for a "vatican", but most of them still don't need to be 4th-8th level, since the important thing is their sage abilities. IMC, after knocking down their levels, I made most of them 1st to 3rd level clerics with additional levels (if needed) in Expert or Adept (D&D 3.5). I think you do AD&D 1, so you might just make them Cleric/Sages.
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