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    Canonfire :: View topic - Question #5
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Question #5

    What orc do you prefer?
    1st edtion orc
    45%
     45%  [ 10 ]
    3.5 edtion orc
    27%
     27%  [ 6 ]
    Your own type of orc
    27%
     27%  [ 6 ]
    Total Votes : 22

    Author Message
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 14, 2009
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    From: Laporte IN.

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    Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:38 pm  
    Question #5

    What orc do you use in your adventures?

    The 1st edtion pig faced orc from the monster manual.

    The 3.5 version where their big, bad and very mean.

    Or something you mix and match, your own version.

    I like using the 1st edtion version in all of my edtions.
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    From: LG Dyvers

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    Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:15 pm  

    I like the look of 3.5e, but slightly more pig-like.

    In addition, orcs in my campaign are neutral evil. They can be led by a powerful leader and obey orders fine from such a figure, but constantly fight amongst themselves without such leadership.

    SirXaris
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:23 pm  

    Soooo...the crossbow is pointing at my head...and I have to pick? Shocked

    I guess I have to choose the pig-faced 1e orc, but I can lean towards a more savage, bestial kind as well. However, in no way do I play stupid orcs...they are blood-thirsty and brutal, yes, but cunning and strategic. After all, how can you have a race born and bred to fight, dominate, and kill that are dumb, clumsy, and easily duped. Nope. Not in my game!

    I am a Lawful Evil orc supporter, through and through, too!

    -Lanthorn
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    From: Spinecastle

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    Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:43 pm  

    Pig-faced orcs all the way!

    I still have a bunch unpainted from Otherworld Minis.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
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    Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:27 pm  

    I have my own version or versions. Not that either of the editions did not have something to add to the race. It's just what I perceived orcs were for the most part IMC. Because one is savage does not mean they are stupid. Orcs are evil though I have the prominent alignment as Chaotic Evil, a large portion are Lawful and neutral evil as well. I think that's one of the reasons earlier editions went with a lawful approach as the base alignment. However, if they don't obey the rules of warfare or the rules and laws of other societies, how can they have a base alignment of Lawful?

    I made three species of green or hill orc usually chaotic evil, grey or mountain orc often lawful evil, and black or deep orc often neutral evil in alignment. Black orcs tend to play with the magical arts more often then the other orc races. Several other species of orc exist but are coupled into these groups as orcs are quite fecund as a race.

    Later

    Argon
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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    Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:56 pm  

    Since the only thing we're discussing is "art work," I chose the 3.5 Orcs. Sorry!

    But I'm a Tolkien fan since before many "newer" gamers heard of Tolkien . . . I read him before "they" were even born! Laughing

    I like the whole "Orcs came from Elves" thing. (Hurray for Melkor! a.k.a. Morgoth) So the pig-like look is a little too much of a stretch. The 3.5 art work gives a more realistic "We're related to elves!" look to them.

    Anyway, the art work of 3.5 suits my vision of the Orcs best. Never attempted to give them my own "vision."
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    GreySage

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    Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:39 pm  

    Argon, my understanding why orcs were considered LE in the original versions has little to do with their lack of honor on the battlefield and everything to do with orcish hierarchy and society. Although orcs are not above murder and a whole litany of other brutal actions, they have a rigid system of ranking, with the chieftain ruling with an iron, heavy-handed fist. They respect structure and their own chain of command based on brute force, cunning, and strength. All other rules, regulations, and societal norms are irrelevant to them unless it achieves their aims. However, you could have the above average orc that has some type of 'honor' that translates to other races, I suppose.

    -Lanthorn
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:51 am  

    I think I'm more in the 3.5 orc camp, as it were, than the 1st edition MM. Although I think the musclularity (is that a word) of the orc gets taken too far sometimes.

    Does anyone remember an old Dragon magazine cover, pre-3rd edition that had orcs attacking what looked like an elven outpost. There were three orcs left and the rest had been slain and the elven noble on a horse was about to challenge the remaining orcs?

    Why the long question? I think that artistic depiction of the orcs was my favourite. I'll see if I can find it. I can post pictures here right?
    GreySage

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:14 am  

    Phalastar wrote:
    I can post pictures here right?


    Yes, you can. And since I don't recall seeing that particular picture, I lood forward to it. Good hunting! Cool

    Phalastar wrote:
    Although I think the musclularity (is that a word)


    Actually, it's spelled "muscularity." Your spell checker would have corrected that for you. Yep! We have spell checker! Wink Laughing
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    GreySage

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    From: LG Dyvers

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:16 am  

    Phalastar wrote:
    I'll see if I can find it. I can post pictures here right?


    Yes, and please do, Phalastar.

    SirXaris
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:14 am  

    I use a hybrid of the the 3.5 orc mixed with the orks from Warhammer 40k. When I was a kid, I picked up the book "Waaagh da orks" from a book store, and it forever warped my perception of orcs. It doesn't help that my current DM is an avid 40K player and ran a warhammer/greyhawk crossover adventure. B:
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:34 am  
    Re: Question #5

    Phalastar wrote:
    ...Does anyone remember an old Dragon magazine cover, pre-3rd edition that had orcs attacking what looked like an elven outpost. There were three orcs left and the rest had been slain and the elven noble on a horse was about to challenge the remaining orcs? Why the long question? I think that artistic depiction of the orcs was my favourite. I'll see if I can find it. I can post pictures here right?


    -I think I know what you mean. I think it was the issue which dealt with war (or WAR! Evil Grin ).

    The one I remember had what looked like a chief, a bodyguard, and the standard bearer? It had a sort of a defiant "The Guard dies, but never surrenders!" feel. It one of the few times you see orcs in a heroic light. If I own it (different state, though), then it would probably be pre-AD&D2.

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Argon, my understanding why orcs were considered LE in the original versions has little to do with their lack of honor on the battlefield and everything to do with orcish hierarchy and society...


    -I've mentioned this before, but I'm pretty certain that the real original OD&D orcs were CE, not LE. I remember noticing it when I first got the AD&D Monster Manual, but it didn't make a huge difference to me at that time (I think I bought it ca. late 1981 or early 1982). I definitely noticed the change later. One of the reasons I went with it was that was the way they "originally" were. Plus, all the supporting materials make them CE, and it also explains why so many serve and worship Iuz.

    baronzemo wrote:
    What orc do you use in your adventures?

    The 1st edtion pig faced orc from the monster manual.

    The 3.5 version where their big, bad and very mean...


    -The official AD&D line of 1/72 scale figures from the 1980s (company?) used the non-cutsey green "mean" orcs, and they were current for AD&D1.
    GreySage

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:42 am  

    I am looking at my copy of the original Monster Manual (in shockingly decent condition despite the over 30 yrs I've had it!), and it clearly has orcs as Lawful Evil.

    Bear in mind that LE orcs could still follow, even ally with, Iuz and his priests in spite of the alignment difference for a variety of logical reasons:

    1) They can butcher, rape, and pillage serving the Old One with wild orcish abandon, and still serve Gruumsh and the Orcish pantheon.

    2) They are AFRAID of the terrible powers the Old One and his priests and mages can muster. I don't blame them on this score! If you can't beat them, join them.

    3) Their leaders are Charmed.

    Orcs can be 'tamed' with any, or all, of these reasons. Besides, if you are a CE priest of Iuz, what better foot soldiers to have in your army than disciplined, warlike orcs whom YOU will betray at any cost, any reason, to serve YOUR goals.

    -Lanthorn
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:46 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    I am looking at my copy of the original Monster Manual (in shockingly decent condition despite the over 30 yrs I've had it!), and it clearly has orcs as Lawful Evil.

    Bear in mind that LE orcs could still follow, even ally with, Iuz and his priests in spite of the alignment difference for a variety of logical reasons:

    1) They can butcher, rape, and pillage serving the Old One with wild orcish abandon, and still serve Gruumsh and the Orcish pantheon.

    2) They are AFRAID of the terrible powers the Old One and his priests and mages can muster. I don't blame them on this score! If you can't beat them, join them.

    3) Their leaders are Charmed.

    Orcs can be 'tamed' with any, or all, of these reasons. Besides, if you are a CE priest of Iuz, what better foot soldiers to have in your army than disciplined, warlike orcs whom YOU will betray at any cost, any reason, to serve YOUR goals.

    -Lanthorn


    -I mentioned that the AD&D1 made them LE. I'm talking about the blue book and the old beige books (Greyhawk, Blackmoor, the military wargames one- Spells & Swords?, etc).
    GreySage

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:09 am  

    "I mentioned that the AD&D1 made them LE. I'm talking about the blue book and the old beige books (Greyhawk, Blackmoor, the military wargames one- Spells & Swords?, etc)."

    My confusion and apology.

    -Lanthorn
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:24 am  

    I justed voted for the 3.5 version (appearance-wise), even though I'd say that the "mean" look actually took over during the AD&D1 era (e.g., the Larry Elmore cover on Dragon #62 or 63 (?); the aforementioned figures).

    It's sort of hard to take Porky Pig with a glaive guirsame seriously...
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:19 pm  

    Others have probably seen this before, but I just noticed the resemblance between the orcs in the 1e MM and an orc in a Brothers Hildebrandt painting.

    Not sure which came first, but artists do borrow from each other all the time, so no big deal to me. The painting is of Merry and Pippins capture by orcs, so I'm assuming it's meant to represent one of the smaller, snaga breed of orcs. The larger orcs have long snouts but are less pig-like.

    The battle of opinion her seems to be (if you want to get beyond just the pig-like features) orcs with longer, bestial snouts and orcs with flatter faces. Larry Elmore's orcs don't have necessarily pig-like faces, but they do have the long snouts. The earliest representations of flat-faced orcs I can find are those drawn by Jim Roslof and Jeff Dee for A1. I've always been pretty partial to them, and find myself going with the flat-faced orcs.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:27 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Others have probably seen this before, but I just noticed the resemblance between the orcs in the 1e MM and an orc in a Brothers Hildebrandt painting.

    Not sure which came first, but artists do borrow from each other all the time, so no big deal to me. The painting is of Merry and Pippins capture by orcs, so I'm assuming it's meant to represent one of the smaller, snaga breed of orcs. The larger orcs have long snouts but are less pig-like.

    The battle of opinion her seems to be (if you want to get beyond just the pig-like features) orcs with longer, bestial snouts and orcs with flatter faces. Larry Elmore's orcs don't have necessarily pig-like faces, but they do have the long snouts. The earliest representations of flat-faced orcs I can find are those drawn by Jim Roslof and Jeff Dee for A1. I've always been pretty partial to them, and find myself going with the flat-faced orcs.


    -"Th-th-th-that's all folks!" Laughing
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:02 pm  

    Anyone else remember Porky Orc from one of the April Dragon issues? Laughing
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:19 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Anyone else remember Porky Orc from one of the April Dragon issues? Laughing


    -Is that the one which had Bugs Bunny as a CG fighter and Daffy Duck as CN?

    Of all the things to remember... I should probably be ashamed of myself... Laughing Razz
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:38 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    "I mentioned that the AD&D1 made them LE. I'm talking about the blue book and the old beige books (Greyhawk, Blackmoor, the military wargames one- Spells & Swords?, etc)."

    My confusion and apology.

    -Lanthorn


    -Looking at the "below the fold" threads, maybe I should refer to OD&D as "Basic D&D".

    Or maybe not- no mention of the biege books AFAICT. Confused
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:26 pm  

    Don't forget Sleeping Beauty...

    GreySage

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:05 pm  

    Ashur, that's great! Even at an early age, we are indoctrinating our youth to be gamers. Wink My son (almost 5 yrs) and daughter (just over 2 yrs) have this film. Time for them to crack out the dice and roll up some characters! Happy We just gotta get mom on board now. Confused

    -Lanthorn
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    Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:28 pm  

    Orcs are chaotic evil in the blue book.

    I use both kinds of orcs. 3.5 orcs are high, or mountain, orcs. They are monstrous raiders that form great hordes and devastate the countryside. The see everything non-orc as food. 1e orcs, aka, hill, pig-faced, or common orcs, are less barbaric and more "civilized", and live in smaller groups intermingled with other races. Common orcs can be found in human society as mercenaries or common soldiers.

    common orc + human = half-orc
    high orc + human = orog
    orc (any) + ogre = ogrillon

    A more detailed post about orcs:
    http://secretsoftheshadowend.blogspot.com/2009/07/orcs.html
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:48 pm  

    Nellisir,

    Nice take it seems we both have common and mountain orcs in our game. Though you handle your interpretation differently from my own.

    Later

    Argon
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:47 pm  

    I am not such a fan of the pig-face orcs. I am partial to Roger Raupp's orcs, and some of Jim Holloway's orcs too.
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:02 am  

    Found the image. Dragon 127 cover. Not sure how to post it up. Looks like I have to load it online somewhere first?
    [/img]
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:49 pm  

    Yes. Use photobucket, flickr, etc. to host the pic, and use [img][/img] tags here.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:24 pm  
    Re: Question #5

    baronzemo wrote:
    What orc do you use in your adventures?

    The 1st edtion pig faced orc from the monster manual.

    The 3.5 version where their big, bad and very mean.

    Or something you mix and match, your own version.

    I like using the 1st edtion version in all of my edtions.


    Obviously I have plenty of time on hands right now:

    http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=19381&start=300

    "Kobolds: Greenish little humanoids with imp-like faces.
    Goblins: Orange-skinned little humanoids with bulbous heads and bodies.
    Orcs; Brutish, ape-man-like humanoids with small eyes and snout noses.
    Hobgoblins: Larger goblins, reddish of skin, also with skinny limbs.
    Gnolls: Hyena-men that smell and sound like hyenas when they cry out.
    Bugbears: Big, hairy hobgoblins with large, round heads.

    That cover it?

    Cheers,
    Gary"
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