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    Canonfire :: View topic - Cobb Darg, Man (?) of Mystery and Canon
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Cobb Darg, Man (?) of Mystery and Canon

    I think Cobb Darg is a:
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    Author Message
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
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    Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:41 am  
    Cobb Darg, Man (?) of Mystery and Canon

    This is long, but I modestly ( Laughing ) think it's worth it:

    For ages, there's been speculation on what Cobb Darg really is.

    A dragon?

    Fallon wrote:
    I actually have the article about Corb being a dragon dragon if you would like it. I thought it was a neat spin since Dragons don't really like to meddle directly in human affairs...


    vestcoat wrote:
    ...Third, use the GH specific dragons and NPCs: shadow dragons, cloud dragons, dust dragons, obsidian dragons, and greyhawk dragons (Aestrella, Cobb Darg and, of course, everyone's favorite Mizaab Zalen)...


    ...specifically, a gold dragon?

    mtg wrote:
    What a good thread. The idea of Cobb Darg being a gold dragon was articulated in "Dragons of Aerdy" by Joe Katzman (1998), which was once available on the Codex of Greyhawk.


    SirXaris wrote:
    ...What the PCs and their players don't know is that this zero-level commoner just happens to be Cobb Darg (ssshhhhh....... the gold dragon)...


    Mekorig wrote:
    ...And , if a recall correctly, Cobb Darg the leader of the city of Puertaferro(i dont know te original name in english, Irongate i think) and a Very Old Gold Dragon is disguse.


    Rhineglade wrote:
    ... I too heard the rumor that Cobb Darg was a polymorphed gold dragon. I seem to recall another article in Dragon that had a simple map of Irongate...


    Varthalon wrote:
    I've always been kind of liked the gold dragon idea myself.

    Both have small wiki's about them though...

    http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Elayne_Mystica
    http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Cobb_Darg


    ...a half-dragon?

    Taras wrote:
    ...As for Cobb Darg...I recall a discussion on him WAY back when the LGG was being written. It was the general consensus to leave his species indeterminate, because it was one of those interesting little mysteries that various DM's had used and abused in all sorts of ways (I distinctly recall one person mentioning they had Cobb Darg being a half-dragon...)...


    ...perhaps a half-gold dragon?

    Oh well.

    About ten years ago (?), I saw a site that had him as a red dragon who survived the Rain of Colorless Fire. And of course: Greyhawk Dragon!

    It would explain his age.

    How about a proto-komazar?

    rasgon wrote:
    ...My theory is that Cobb Darg is related to the komazar, who are human-dwarf hybrids magically created by the Scarlet Brotherhood for use as slaves (described in The Scarlet Brotherhood accessory by Sean K. Reynolds). Cobb is probably not a pureblooded komazar, since they're mute and have short, waddling legs, but he might be an earlier prototype or a hybrid of komazar and one or more of his ancestral races...


    Cebrion wrote:
    I like the komazar idea. It also fits opposite the Iron League's greatest enemy too- the Scarlet Brotherhood...


    ...that would explain why he had the Scarlet Brotherhood's number.

    Or...

    abysslin wrote:
    hmm, I seem to remember cobb Darg as being the very first Derro ever created or some such stuff..


    ...even if not the first, then a derro would give him a similar background to a komazar, only far older.

    For this:

    Wykthor wrote:
    ...Now THAT was unexpected. My craziest bet was Cobb darg be a kind of construct, as Philidor...


    rasgon wrote:
    Oh, I forgot the "Cobb Darg is a golem or other construct created by Elayne Mystica" theory. Also that one.


    ...I'm speechless. Confused

    rasgon wrote:
    ...Other possibilities:

    He's a doppleganger.

    He's an ogre mage.

    He's a dwarf.

    He's a unique being that Wastri has been trying to kill for as long as that demigod has existed. He's Wastri's antithesis: where Wastri is a hybrid of human and toad who hates demihumans, Cobb Darg is a hybrid of human and demihuman who hates toads, bred to be the one being who could slay the demigod.


    ...I've also seen that he's an avatar (St. Cuthbert? Zilchus?).

    Anyway, here's why there's no answer:

    PSmedger wrote:
    Erik Mona and I are to blame for any mystery surrounding Cobb Darg's "heritage". His true nature has never been revealed, so officially, you can feel free to go in any direction you wish.

    Just keep these few things in mind:

    For a man, he's unusually short (under 5 feet), but is legendarily wily and wise. No one knows his "class", he has never cast spells in public or revealed a religious affiliation.

    He's also lived a great deal of time, having been elected to the mayoralty of Irongate at least 4 successive 10 year terms (and has just started a fifth in 590 CY).

    He has been a member of the inner sanctum of the Iron League for as long as any man in that secret society can remember....only the elves of Sunndi or the Dwarflords of the Iron Hills can remember a time before him....

    Here are the prevalent theories, whispered by various circles in the city and its environs:

    1) Darg is a human with dwarven heritage (extremely unusual) and that helps explain his appearance and long-livedness. This would also explain his great affinity with the dwarven enclaves bordering Irongate who regard him as a strong ally. His wisdom comes from having lived before the Turmoil Between Crowns, having secretly been a member of the Iron League since its inception, indeed perhaps its founder!

    2) Darg is a dragon, one of the last inhabitants of the Dragonshead Peninsula, who lives polymorhped as a man. He cherishes this region so much, that he is willing to engage in this charade to protect its mysteries. Only in secret is his true form ever revealed (which is known only to a handful of people, including perhaps Elayne Mystica, a close confidant.) This would explain why he inhabitants the Lord Mayor's Tower virtually alone, suffering few visitors, even among the lords of the city.

    3) Darg is in fact a human, and is either secretly a wizard, scholar, or sage who has learned some great secret. This has afforded him unnaturally long life and the foresight to protect Irongate and defeat its enemies in ways others could not. This would explain his secret forays into the old caverns in the hills near Irongate and his prohibition against exploring the ruins beneath Dwurtown.

    One of these might be the truth, none of them, or some combination. Use whatever works best in your campaign.


    Personally, I'd double down on this:

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...besides, at least once, something "mysterious" should just be an exaggerated story. Not every oddball character needs to be a dragon or other planar being. Never hurts to make your enemies think otherwise though. Wink


    ...and say that he's human, and not even unusually high level at that (3rd level Expert/ 4th Rogue in CY 591?).

    Anyway, I was thinking that if a final canonical decision were made, that a lot of people would be disappointed regardless of the choice, and it might actually screw things up for anyone who had made a final decision and actually used the old boy in a campaign. But if the Powers That Be ever focus on GH ever again, I think that there would be pressure to decide, one way or the other, particularly as a plot device (when they "BLOW IT UP!").

    So, how to square the circle of leaving it up to the DM versus the urge for standardization?

    How about a Cobb Darg of Irongate supplement which includes two dozen options (or more) for the DM to use?

    The accessory would include the following:

    1) Description of Irongate: A brief description of Irongate City, Anchorgate/Bronzegate, and the rest (including Maldin's stuff);

    2) History of Irongate (particularly CY 445-591);

    3) NPCs of Irongate (some people associated with Cobb Darg, sort of like the "Beautiful People" and "Ambassador" sections of Greyhawk: Gem of the Flanaess and From The Ashes);

    4) Staff and Servants (Cobb Darg's team, from Elayne Mystica down to his shoe-shine boy);

    5) Cidereal Citadel (Cobb Darg's residence, I assume);

    6) Cobb Darg, Basic Background (all the stuff which every version agrees with. This would include the 1980 and 1983 WOGGs, Draon # 57, Greyhawk Wars, From the Ashes, The Adventure Begins, Dragon # 351, the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, and Maldin stuff);

    7) Cobb Darg, the "Truth" (at least 24 versions of Cobb Darg, including stats, personal belongings, items of office, specific personal history, and an explanation as to why no one has been able to figure him out until now!).

    The DM could take one version he likes, or merge two or three, or even just use it for inspiration without taking too much from any.

    One advantage of this approach is that even if the players get their hands on it, they still don't know which way the DM went. Evil Grin Razz

    You could probably do this with other mysterious types e.g., the Egg of Coot.

    FWIW

    Related threads and sites:

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=53403#53403 (species poll)

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=53404#53404 (alignment poll)

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=34450&highlight=darg#34450

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2775&highlight=cobb

    http://melkot.com/locations/irongate.html


    Last edited by jamesdglick on Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:23 am; edited 18 times in total
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:29 pm  

    Jamesdglick,

    The speculation behind Cobb Darg, was likely supported by him and his cabinet. His enemies would or could be obsessed with whom he really is. I prefer him as a dwarf or dwarf born.

    Later

    Argon
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    Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:46 am  

    Ah a topic very close to my heart. My campaign is set in and around Irongate so this has bothered me for years. It hasn't really impacted the game however. I like the Dragon idea, though I was more inclined to go with Greyhawk Dragon rather than Gold Dragon. So of the other options seem okay to but might require further explanation.

    I'm throwing around ideas for a slightly advanced timeline - cy600. One of the options is having Darg assassinated by the SB, but I probably like him to much for that.

    Would love to see more detail on Irongate. I'd be happy to contribute to such an enterprise.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:51 am  

    Piffle....dwarf...ridiculous Exclamation

    He is a dragon, a gold one...
    Lord mayor; how nice of you to visit, I see...
    He is a merely a merchant; knew his mom and dad, fine people
    Enough said..

    Perhaps a poll
    Team Dragon
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:04 am  

    Crag wrote:
    Piffle....dwarf...ridiculous Exclamation

    He is a dragon, a gold one...
    Lord mayor; how nice of you to visit, I see...
    He is a merely a merchant; knew his mom and dad, fine people
    Enough said..

    Perhaps a poll
    Team Dragon


    Arrggghh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Confused Embarassed

    How do you edit this stupid poll? Laughing Confused

    And it keeps saying I've already voted. I can't vote in my own poll. Confused Laughing

    Oh well. Just click on the topmost one of each choice.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
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    Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:32 am  

    Argon wrote:
    ...The speculation behind Cobb Darg, was likely supported by him and his cabinet. His enemies would or could be obsessed with whom he really is. I prefer him as a dwarf or dwarf born...


    -If you're going to know who your enemy (or even ally) is, you'd want to want he is. Can't do a psych' profile on him if you don't even know what species he is.

    Odd that no one has figured it out, particularly if you consider magical means. Or maybe someone has figured it out, but are keeping it close to their vest because:

    1) They're friendly (e.g., would the Nyrondese spill the beans?);

    2) They know, but they don't want Cobb Darg to know they know (so they can play head games without Cobb knowing they're playing head games);

    3) to conceal their source e.g. they want to use that guy who shines Darg's golden scales again. Laughing

    Phalastar wrote:
    ...It hasn't really impacted the game however...


    -Yeah, I haven't DM'ed there, but I doubt it would matter much unless one was involved in high level diplomacy or espionage, or if one of the PC's becomes his dietitian.

    Phalastar wrote:
    ...I'm throwing around ideas for a slightly advanced timeline - cy600. One of the options is having Darg assassinated by the SB...


    -Oh no. Not "Blow it up!" Surprised Laughing

    I've considered the possibility, too. But that's why I'd like there to be options as to what he is. He might get assassinated, but the means of assassination might depend on his species, which in turn should be up to the DM:

    jamesdglick wrote:

    ...How about a Cobb Darg of Irongate supplement which includes two dozen options (or more) for the DM to use?

    ...Cobb Darg, Basic Background (all the stuff which every version agrees with. This would include the 1980 and 1983 WOGGs, Draon # 57, Greyhawk Wars, From the Ashes, The Adventure Begins, Dragon # 351, the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, and Maldin stuff);

    ...Cobb Darg, the "Truth" (at least 24 versions of Cobb Darg, including stats, personal belongings, items of office, specific personal history, and an explanation as to why no one has been able to figure him out until now!).

    The DM could take one version he likes, or merge two or three, or even just use it for inspiration without taking too much from any...


    ...essentially, World of Greyhawk CY 600might state "Cobb Darg was assassinated", but the details should be to the DM.

    Phalastar wrote:
    ...Would love to see more detail on Irongate. I'd be happy to contribute to such an enterprise.


    -Agree part one. Part two might take me a while, but that, too. Someone would have to convert it to D&D 5.0 or whatever. I know Maldin has a ton on Irongate, too.

    One other issue: Cobb Darg's alignment. I really don't see him as Evil, and I don't see him as Chaotic, either. Nothing about his running of Irongate shows Evil, and Chaoticwould have shown up in his diplomacy, I think. That leaves LG, LN, NG or N. It might sound unimaginative, but i'd make him LN (LG). That way, he can brutally ruthless "if neccessary", but rarely is. Failing that, LG (LN).
    GreySage

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    Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:39 pm  

    Hmm. Confused

    It's saying that I've already voted in the poll and I haven't!

    <Mystic Scholar cast "Summon Cebrion!">

    *Poof!*


    Hmm. Confused
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    GreySage

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    Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:46 pm  

    The poll says that I have already voted in it, too. So, it's all messed up.

    The Oerth Journal #13 article that outed Cobb Darg as a Gold Dragon was my first exposure to the issue, so it is still my prefered explanation for his success.

    SirXaris
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    Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:22 pm  

    Now THATS a poll!!
    GreySage

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    Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:37 pm  

    James, you are in good (?) company, as my first, and thus far ONLY, attempt at fashioning a poll met with utter failure... Confused

    Maybe an Admin with DemiPowers can alter it appropriately. Razz

    'Zemo, we should rely on you for ALL our polls hitherforth. Happy

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:13 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    'Zemo, we should rely on you for ALL our polls hitherforth. Happy


    Baronzemo: 12th level Polemaster. Wink

    (Yes, I know how I spelled it. Evil Grin )

    SirXaris
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    Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:48 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Lanthorn wrote:
    'Zemo, we should rely on you for ALL our polls hitherforth. Happy


    Baronzemo: 12th level Polemaster. Wink

    (Yes, I know how I spelled it. Evil Grin )

    SirXaris


    So, now 'Zemo is an exotic dancer?! Happy
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:12 pm  

    LOL Shocked Laughing
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:22 pm  

    I had baronzemo pegged for an exotic dancer. Wink

    Funny, I never heard of this in the GenCon dinner at the Ram thread! Shocked Surprised

    Why were we not told about this sooner?

    On another note, why are there multiple entries for races in the poll? If he's human he's human or if he's a doppleganger he's a doppleganger. Confused

    Later

    Argon
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    Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:29 am  

    Interesting you raise the topic of his alignment. I certain is is either LN or LG, perhaps influenced by what kind of dragon he is (Gold of Greyhawk) - sorry to the rest of the heretics who believe something else Wink

    Yes I certain there is a ton of basic material on Irongate sitting out there. Shame we cant colaborate to build up a Gazetteer for Irongate through Canonfire...
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:13 am  

    I think he's a very astute, politically-capable, clever little man. But then, I'm boring. Wink
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:16 am  

    It says: I have already voted Confused

    Contact Mortellan; check his site - resident irongate expert.
    His site is an Irongate Gazetteer.

    Like SirXaris: the explaination that caught my imagination was The Oerth Journal #13 article. Revealed as a gold dragon, given his rulership style the alignment fits and I like the idea that a dragon has deceived an entire kingdom into protecting its hoard. Not every dragon has to be fast asleep until adventures stumble into its lair.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:53 am  

    Argon wrote:
    ...On another note, why are there multiple entries for races in the poll? If he's human he's human or if he's a doppleganger he's a doppleganger. ..


    -That's the other reason that the poll is "screwed up."

    Sometimes, if I click the "submit button" it doesn't work. So I usually click it a bunch of times to make sure it goes through. This time, I think, it simply took every click and put it in times four. Confused

    I'll try something else.

    SirXaris wrote:
    ...The Oerth Journal #13 article that outed Cobb Darg as a Gold Dragon was my first exposure to the issue, so it is still my prefered explanation for his success.



    ...and...

    Crag wrote:
    ...Like SirXaris: the explaination that caught my imagination was The Oerth Journal #13 article. Revealed as a gold dragon, given his rulership style the alignment fits and I like the idea that a dragon has deceived an entire kingdom into protecting its hoard. Not every dragon has to be fast asleep until adventures stumble into its lair.


    -That may be where I first saw the gold dragon option, but I think it's older than that. But OJ has a lot of stuff that turns out to be bogus, so I'm holding out.

    smillan_31 wrote:
    I think he's a very astute, politically-capable, clever little man. But then, I'm boring. Wink


    -That would be my vote!

    If I could vote... Confused

    Phalastar wrote:
    Interesting you raise the topic of his alignment. I certain is is either LN or LG, perhaps influenced by what kind of dragon he is (Gold of Greyhawk) - sorry to the rest of the heretics who believe something else...


    ...and...

    Crag wrote:
    ...given his rulership style the alignment fits and I like the idea that a dragon has deceived an entire kingdom into protecting its hoard...


    -I'll come up with an alignment poll, too. Exclamation

    Crag wrote:
    ...Contact Mortellan; check his site - resident irongate expert.
    His site is an Irongate Gazetteer...


    ...and...

    Phalastar wrote:
    ...Yes I certain there is a ton of basic material on Irongate sitting out there. Shame we cant colaborate to build up a Gazetteer for Irongate through Canonfire...


    -Hint, hint. Wink

    MY main point is really my "two dozen shades of Cobb Darg" idea. There would be some commonality, but the exact details will be left to the individual DM. Then, if a canonical change in the "history" of Irongate comes along, it should be something which accomadates the two dozen options.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:31 am  

    I tried to delete the poll monstrosity, but this came up:

    "Sorry, but only moderators can delete posts in this forum." Confused
    GreySage

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    Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:10 pm  

    Maybe he's an iron dragon. I mean, it's Irongate, not Goldgate or Greyhawkgate. They all have the innate ability to take on humanoid or animal forms of Medium size or smaller, so it totally works!
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:20 pm  

    I'd go with Cobb Darg being a "power" and a unique entity. Not a deity, and probably not even a quasi-deity, or hero-deity, but pretty darn close. Semi-quasi-deity? Originally human.
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