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    Canonfire :: View topic - A Song of Black Ice and Fire
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    A Song of Black Ice and Fire
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 14, 2008
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    From: Modena, Italy

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    Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:21 am  
    A Song of Black Ice and Fire

    Hi everyone, nice to be here after a long pause :) (but not from play, I have played a lot of Greyhawk in 2012!).
    I am building up a wiki of my personal Greyhawk campaign setting which is a mix of canon and events happened during play in various interconnected adventures and campaigns (in Italian, sorry!).

    One thing I was struggling a bit with lately was the political and administrative network of the Flanaess. Since I love the medieval feel of A Song of Ice and Fire and Expeditious Retreat0s A Magical Medieval Society, and I really like how all the tiles in GRRM world fit, I have been hacking a bit at the campaign setting as to fit that version of feudalism in our beloved Greyhawk.

    In my world, obviously, Flans had no real feudal system and they're mainly tribe-based like the ancient populations of north-Africa and western Asia (I have to decide exactly how to fit Sulm and the Empire of Vecna in this picture, but let's say they will not be like our Middle Ages at all, maybe more similar to Akkadia?).
    The feudal system as we know it is a Suel invention. Suel was an Imperium with some vassal Kingdoms underneath and noble houses like Rhola, Skotti, Frutcii, Cruskii etc. interconnected by a system of fealty and protection.
    Oeridians blatantly copied Suel's manoral/feudal system and made it their own (a little bit like the Romans absorbed customs and gods from other cultures like the Greeks), so we have strict similitudes between the two. The Baklunish west of course has his own tiered system strictly interconnected with religion so instead of houses they have dynasties and dynasties have some sort of religious background.
    I decided to simplify a bit on the various marches, duchies, counties, shires, earldoms, etc, by having only Kingdoms and Lordships. The Great Kingdom, Iuz and Kaoland are now Empires, and Nyrond, Ferrond, Veluna, Gran March, Geoff etc. all Kindoms of their own with major houses and so on leading them. House Kaszinkaia is a Major house in Veluna, as House Skotti is a powerful house in Keoland, for instance.

    Thillronian barbarians and Ratik have a slightly different clan-based social system instead of our system of major houses and cadet branches, but that I explained as being a system they copied from the dwarves and frost giants (that explains why kings/jarls and cultures seem to be similar between these groups).

    Working on this train of thought, Oeridians might have made Flan gods as we know them. Flan prayed to formless spirits of nature but Oeridians just absorbed them in our culture and made them similar to their gods (also coming from other minor and nameless subdued cultures). You still see "old school" Flan worship in the so called Old Faith in the mountains surrounding Perrenland, for instance. It would be like the Romans took Indian American spirits and gave them a shape and a book of rituals and priesthood etc.

    Coming to my aid is also the fact that Greyhawk onomastics is completely random, but we have a LOT of important NPCs with surnames :) hence we have House Jakartai, House Sallavarian, House Jalucian and so on. Some house names might also be completely bought with money or influence, like the brand new (and scoffed by real nobility) House Gasgal and House Nenshen.

    Here I need some help on Geoff however. Is there any official or semi official note on Duke Owen (renamed Lord Owen) name?

    (I don't have anything against leaving independent duchies as they are, but I find it clearer to tell my players Geoff is a Kingdom which swore (frail) fealty to the Empire of Keoland).

    Has someone collected official House names in Greyhawk? Is there some note on how these houses are interconnected?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:29 am  
    Re: A Song of Black Ice and Fire

    MToscan wrote:
    Here I need some help on Geoff however. Is there any official or semi official note on Duke Owen (renamed Lord Owen) name?


    Even in the Gyruff Gazetteer I couldn't find a house name, but then the LG Geoff is based on Wales and if you look at most of the independent Princes of Wales in the medieval period, you don't see house names applied to them, merely things like Dafydd ap Llywelyn -- 'ap' meaning 'son of.' Some English historians applied house names to some of the dynasties of the various Welsh kingdoms, but as far as we know that's more an application by foreigners to try and shoehorn the Welsh royalty into their own system than anything the Welsh used. Generally they seemed to apply geographic origin or the name of the dynasty's genitor as house names. Owen (presumably) is descended from Rohan IV, son of the Count of Pregmere, who won the title of Grand Duke at the conclusion of a civil war. So in that case you could go with Owen Rohan or Owen Pregmere. Or you could just say the Geoffi don't use house names and he's just known as Owen ap Lluth (Lluth being his father in the GG).

    MToscan wrote:
    (I don't have anything against leaving independent duchies as they are, but I find it clearer to tell my players Geoff is a Kingdom which swore (frail) fealty to the Empire of Keoland).

    Has someone collected official House names in Greyhawk? Is there some note on how these houses are interconnected?


    Do you mean the Domain of Greyhawk or just Greyhawk the world? If the latter, I don't think anyone has compiled a list yet, but if you search through the Encyclopedia Greyhawkia for [CLN], which is the designation of clan, family, or tribe, you could probably get a good list to start with.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:13 pm  
    Re: A Song of Black Ice and Fire

    This sounds like a wonderful project. The Song of Ice and Fire has very evocative, clear noble houses that help the reader feel invested in their politics, and it'd be nice if Greyhawk had something like that. Of course, Westeros only has seven kingdoms to deal with.

    In Greyhawk, seven houses of Aerdy are pretty well detailed, as are the houses of Rhola and Neheli in Keoland (which has been kicking the Black Lion Throne between them like a kickball for most of their kingdom's history, with Mandros and Kimbertos the only rulers not of one or the other royal house). Since between them Aerdy and Keoland have at one time or another ruled pretty much the entire Flanaess, it's a pretty good bet that most of the major noble families in Greyhawk are related somehow to the royal lines of Keoland and the Great Kingdom.

    MToscan wrote:
    In my world, obviously, Flans had no real feudal system and they're mainly tribe-based like the ancient populations of north-Africa and western Asia (I have to decide exactly how to fit Sulm and the Empire of Vecna in this picture, but let's say they will not be like our Middle Ages at all, maybe more similar to Akkadia?).


    There's also Queen Ehlissa's kingdom, Keraptis's tyranny, the Isles of Woe, Almadia, Veralos, Nuria, and Caerdiralor for you to ignore or explain. I personally like the idea that the Flan had many sophisticated civilizations in the ancient past before they were destroyed by one another, by plague, by monsters and demons and the Tarrasque and, eventually, the Great Migrations because it means more ancient ruins to explore and more ancient mysteries to solve, but of course your mileage may vary.

    Of course, that doesn't mean the Flan were feudal, or that they weren't tribe-based, just that I like them building cities, fortresses, temples, towers, labyrinths, and dungeons to delve. Without that, Greyhawk's history is too short for my tastes.

    Quote:
    Here I need some help on Geoff however. Is there any official or semi official note on Duke Owen (renamed Lord Owen) name?


    In the Living Greyhawk campaign he was known as Owen ap Lluth, which just meant he was the son of Lluth. He was said to have married the daughter of King Kimbertos (Calisse) in CY 592.

    When in doubt, I use the name of the capital, the name of the family lands, or the name of the nation as the name of the royal house (which is why I've assumed the name of King Belvor of Furyondy's house was Fairwain, though Belvor's ancestors were probably one of the noble houses of Aerdy - perhaps Darmen or Torquann), so perhaps Owen belongs to the House of Gorna.

    A Living Greyhawk document called "Rulers and Nobility of Gyruff [Geoff]" says this:

    Quote:
    As recently as CY 497, Llwyr Granus of Rhychdir Rhos, grown overly rich and powerful, tried to claim the Griffon Chair [the throne of Geoff] from Rohan III. After the deaths of both the Brenin [Grand Duke] and his challenger and four years of bloody civil war, Granus’ son became Rohan IV and finally brought peace again to Gyruff [Geoff]. I am sure Duke Owen has not forgotten how his family came to the Griffon Chair.


    So perhaps he belongs to the House of Granus? Your call.

    Quote:
    Has someone collected official House names in Greyhawk? Is there some note on how these houses are interconnected?


    You'll have to do most of the work yourself, I'm sure; there really isn't a lot of information to have, especially on the distaff lines. I'll poke around a bit and see what I can find, though.

    House of Lizhal. From Living Greyhawk Journal #1: a minor Suel house that migrated with the houses of Rhola and Neheli through the Passage of Slerotin. Heavily intermarried with both Oeridian and elven bloodlines. Currently controls the Barony of Grayhill in Keoland. Both King Kimbertos Skotti and his younger brother, Baron Markos Skotti of Grayhill, are of this house. Presumably "Skotti" is the name of the branch of the House of Lizhal they belong to; perhaps the name is of Oeridian origin? Whatever; the king's family is Skotti, but his house is Lizhal. Richart Jorgos, Viscount of Nume Eor, is also of the House of Lizhal and a cousin of the king.

    House of Linth. From Living Greyhawk Journal #1: a minor Suel house, generally considered to be in decline. This house rules the Earldom of Linth. The wizard Baltron was of this house.

    House of Neheli. One of the most powerful of the Keoish Suel houses, closely allied with the Silent Ones, founded Niole Dra, the house of many of the Keoish kings, has terrible secrets in its distant past related to its dealings with Vecna. Rules the Duchy of Dorlin. Prone to marrying elves. Haunted by rumors of madness. Currently headed by Duke Cedrian III, nephew of Keoland's previous king (Trevlyan III of the House of Neheli). Traditional rivals of the House of Rhola. The Baron of the Axewood, Anladon II, his half Neheli and half elf and kin to both Duke Cedrian III and the Duke of Ulek. The Baron of Dilwych, Malweig I, is a Neheli and quite mad. I'm still referencing Living Greyhawk Journal #1.

    House of Rhola. The other founding house of Keoland. Founded Gradsul. Many Keoish kings were of this house. Known for naval pursuits, love of exploration, and lust for conquest. Rules Duchy of Gradsul. Traditional reverence of Keoghtom. Headed by Luschan VIII, whose family (within the House of Luschan) is called Sellark. Traditional owners of the sword Vilharian, which was lost during the Siege of Westkeep in 453 CY (LGJ #4) and was known as the Sword of the Dragon in Treasures of Greyhawk. Jeon II in the Hold of the Sea Princes is secretly a descendant of King Tavish I of the House of Rhola (who Jeon II calls "Derik Drakkonheart" in WGR2 to disguise his identity). One of the brothers of Tavish III (in Samwise's timeline, this is Duke Luschan V, while in WGR2 he is unnamed) survived the Siege of Westkeep and founded the House of Monmurg under a false identity.

    House of Elgarin. From LGJ #1. Allita Elgarin, a cleric of Xerbo, is Countess of Flen. Her son is Garson Elgarin. The Elgarins have ruled Flen for centuries. LGJ1.

    House of Manz. Ignas Manz, a fighter, a cultural "philistine," and a worshiper of Keoghtom, is Count of Cryllor. LGJ1.

    House of Secunforth. A distant relation of the Neheli. Rules Salinmoor. Headed by Cronin Secunforth III. LGJ1.

    House of Kharn. An Oeridian house. Rules March of Middlemead. Headed by Lord Kharn. LGJ1.

    House of Reyd. An Oeridian house. Rules County of Nimlee. Headed by Countess Lissen Reyd. LGJ1.

    House of Derwent. Erlich Derwent rules the March of Sedenna in Keoland (LGJ1). Luther Derwent rules the Viscounty of the March in Furyondy (WGR4).

    House of Ravannar. Rules March of Mandismoor? Speculation based on the fact that the "infamous Castle Ravannar" is there. LGJ1.

    House of Kalinstren. Headed by Baron Kalinstren of the Barony of Kalinstren in Furyondy. WGR4.

    House of Jakartai. Headed by Artur Jakartai. Rules County of the Reach in Furyondy. Replaces Paulus Halpern, who died without issue. WGR4.

    House of Jemian. Baron Jemian rules the Barony of Littleberg in Furyondy (WGR4).

    House of Tyneman. Duke Bennal Tyneman rules the Duchy of the Reach in Furyondy (WGR4).

    ...Maybe I'll come back to this later! Got other things to do. Good luck!
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:57 am  

    Thank you very much!!! I knew I couldn't go wrong here eheh!
    I also made a full immersion in heraldry recently as there's still nobility and interest in heraldry in my country - I even know 3 or 4 fanatics of blazons and heraldry (and actually 2 counts as well :)).

    I will simplify things a little since heraldry is a bit complicated and I don't want to lose my mind in details. Like i said, all nobles are Lords and as such I'll not use titles like baron, count, viscount, margrave etc. An Overking is an Emperor, and Duchies become Kingdoms.

    Houses (or "clans" among the barbarians/dwarves/thillronian and ratik) are groupings of families. The ruling family in the house can avoid using the family name and use the House name instead. All other families are so called "branches" (many beooks besides seem to use the term house and family interchangeably, which added a lot of confusion).
    Families have coat of arms like Houses but are variations with the same color combination.

    In tbe beginning only Houses and Families had coat of arms, but more recently also Religious and Knightly orders and cities got one. Free cities for example have mayors enrolled from noble houses which do NOT belong to the land (to ensure impartiality) and has its own coat of arms which is not related to any ruling family (or maybe Yragerne?)
    This brings me to consider House Granus, Skotti family, as maybe the ruling family is extinct? Or better House Lizhal, and both Skotti and Granus were families within Lizhal... hmmm.

    Agreed for the Flan and other ancient Empires. I just don't want to have any Sirs of noble families among the personalities of Flan history. They might have been satraps or whatever governor name we decide, on a culture by culture basis :)

    Besides I was meditating on Wilfrick and Verbobomc right now. Since there's a Castle Greyfist, it could be Wilfrick was WIlfrick of House Greyfist, and so his first son Fenward Greyfist. Since his other son was half-elven, I was considering using Westeros naming system for highborn bastards, maybe based on the regions of the old Aerdy Empire. Highborn bastards from ferrond could be, I dunno... Stone? Hence Langard Stone.
    Any ideas for bastard names in the Aerdy fedual/heraldic system?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:58 am  

    Thank you very much!!! I knew I couldn't go wrong here eheh!
    I also made a full immersion in heraldry recently as there's still nobility and interest in heraldry in my country - I even know 3 or 4 fanatics of blazons and heraldry (and actually 2 counts as well :)).

    I will simplify things a little since heraldry is a bit complicated and I don't want to lose my mind in details. Like i said, all nobles are Lords and as such I'll not use titles like baron, count, viscount, margrave etc. An Overking is an Emperor, and Duchies become Kingdoms.

    Houses (or "clans" among the barbarians/dwarves/thillronian and ratik) are groupings of families. The ruling family in the house can avoid using the family name and use the House name instead. All other families are so called "branches" (many beooks besides seem to use the term house and family interchangeably, which added a lot of confusion).
    Families have coat of arms like Houses but are variations with the same color combination.

    In tbe beginning only Houses and Families had coat of arms, but more recently also Religious and Knightly orders and cities got one. Free cities for example have mayors enrolled from noble houses which do NOT belong to the land (to ensure impartiality) and has its own coat of arms which is not related to any ruling family (or maybe Yragerne?)
    This brings me to consider House Granus, Skotti family, as maybe the ruling family is extinct? Or better House Lizhal, and both Skotti and Granus were families within Lizhal... hmmm.

    Agreed for the Flan and other ancient Empires. I just don't want to have any Sirs of noble families among the personalities of Flan history. They might have been satraps or whatever governor name we decide, on a culture by culture basis :)

    Besides I was meditating on Wilfrick and Verbobomc right now. Since there's a Castle Greyfist, it could be Wilfrick was WIlfrick of House Greyfist, and so his first son Fenward Greyfist. Since his other son was half-elven, I was considering using Westeros naming system for highborn bastards, maybe based on the regions of the old Aerdy Empire. Highborn bastards from ferrond could be, I dunno... Stone? Hence Langard Stone.
    Any ideas for bastard names in the Aerdy fedual/heraldic system?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:03 am  

    Regaridng Greyhawk, I recall only Mastryne right now, so might be that families of House Mastryne are the Lords of Greyhawk (but obviously with no direct political power)?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:11 am  

    I love this idea. It has certainly got me thinking, especially as I started looking at similar ideas for Sterich, particularly Mittleberg in the west (from Red Hand of Doom). The ruler of the city has the surname Jarmaath and could therefore head House Jarmaath etc.

    One of the SOIAF RPG rule books has an interesting noble house generation system which I played around with for a bit for western Sterich with some interesting results. For example, House Jarmaath turned out to be largely impoverished and owned next to nothing whereas House Kaal (another house in the city) owned a castle and other land. This led me to the interesting story conclusion that whilst the Jarmaaths were nominal rulers, they were largely beholden to the richer (and evil) Kaals who even owned the keep they lived in. It's worth looking out this rulebook, at least in PDF if you want to conjure up some interesting ideas like this.
    GreySage

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    Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:28 pm  

    MToscan wrote:
    Regaridng Greyhawk, I recall only Mastryne right now, so might be that families of House Mastryne are the Lords of Greyhawk (but obviously with no direct political power)?


    The first Lord of Greyhawk to be recognized by the Overking was Maret Nial, who (in 4 CY) was an ambitious former cavalry captain rather than (as far as we know) a member of an ancient noble house. If Maret Nial was secretly a scion of House Cranden or another Aerdi house, the official sources don't show it. In recognition of the tax money Nial sent the Great Kingdom he was named Landgraf of Selintan. Maret Nial's heir was Ganz, who married Maro Yragerne, the Gynarch of Hardby.

    Hardby had been founded in 366 OR by Ena Norbe. Ena Norbe married the captain of her guard and had six daughters, who each founded one of the Six Families of Hardby. These families were (according to Dungeon #109): Yragerne, Norbelos, Gerneskir, Jonnosh, Havelos, and Maynem. After the Yragernes went extinct (Zagig was the last heir), the family of Longland was elevated to take its place among the Six Families.

    The descendants of Ganz and Maro (I'll call it the Nial dynasty) ruled until 209 CY when the Landgraf of Selintan was assassinated, leaving no heirs. The commander of the Grand Citadel, Ponjes the Bull, took over and reorganized the government. The Overking eventually appointed Ponjes as the new Landgraf of Selintan. I don't see any indication that Ponjes had a family name, but I assume he took one once he gained a noble title. It's possible that it was Mastryne. Ponjes's son was Omt the Hairy, and as far as I know his dynasty continued until Zagig Yragerne bribed his way onto the Directing Oligarchy in 310 CY.

    Zagig Yragerne was rumored to have been born somewhere on the Wild Coast and he's definitely kin to Mordenkainen, who is a (secret) descendant of House Cranden. Zagig's mother was Eileme Yragerne, the Gynarch of Hardby. Upon the death of his mother he claimed the title of both Landgraf of Selintan and Despot of Hardby. As the son of an Yragerne he would have been a descendant of Ganz Nial, but I'm not sure what happened to the dynasty of Ponjes the Bull. Perhaps they died out, or perhaps Zagig was a scion of that dynasty as well - though if so, it's curious that Zagig went by the name of his mother's house rather than his father's even after renouncing his mother's title. It seems more likely that Zagig was of dubious paternity, though both of Zagig's parents were supposedly buried in the dungeons beneath Castle Greyhawk (Zagig's Crypt, Z600). He might have simply bought the title of Landgraf from its former holders. Slavers says Zagig "was born to a lesser member of the Gynarchy and a descendant of Lord Ganz of Greyhawk," though as Zagig's mother would have been a descendant of Lord Ganz it isn't clear if these were two different people. Zagig relinquished his title of Despot of Hardby in 351 CY, allowing Annarra Havelos to become Despotrix in his place. He abandoned the mortal world in 421 CY, leaving behind no official heirs (he has one adopted son, Yrag, but this was apparently a secret and Yrag has not sought to claim his adopted father's title - Yrag has a noble title of his own, earned along with Robilar's title for the capture of Bluto Sans Pite). The title of Landgraf of Selintan was abolished at that point. Since then, Greyhawk has been exclusively in the hands of the Directing Oligarchy.

    I don't know if there's anything official about the origins of Castle Mastryne. According to From the Ashes, Lord Mastryne claims the lands within 15 miles east of the Jewel River. Oerth Journal #11 presents a fan take on the history of Castle Mastryne, though. According to it, the castle was built almost 100 years ago by an elf from Celene named Elin Baridel and originally called Castle Baridel. Baridel died without heirs in 580 CY and his castle was inherited by his lieutenant, Brandon Stark. In 586 CY an adventurer named Cedric Mastryne, who had apparently been squatting in the castle without permission, thwarted an assault by Turrosh Mak. Stark got himself named an independent baron by Nerof Gasgal, but Mastryne seized the castle for himself. Stark, whose independence meant that Greyhawk felt no need to defend him, now roams the wood nearby as a bandit lord.

    In a story by Gary Gygax and K.R. Bourgoine in Dragon #344, "The Return of Gord," Gord the Rogue often goes under the alias of "Sir Margus of the noble Velunese House of Leewes." Is the House of Leewes a real thing or did Gord invent it? The other relevant thing in that story is Lord Fradel, a member of the Directing Oligarchy. Lord Fradel had a son, Arnolf, who was "known to cheat at dice." Fradel has a palace somewhere in Greyhawk's High Quarter.

    Anyway, some nobles of Greyhawk include:
    Nerof Gasgal (surely)
    Lord Fradel
    Yrag
    Robilar (stripped after his betrayal)
    Ayelerach (a baron)
    Lord Mastryne (self-proclaimed baron)
    Here's a list of current Directing Oligarchs. Most of them have surnames.
    Huon (Baron Redfort), Delkart (Count Easmoor), Edward (Lord Yggs), and Edmund (Marquis Talworth) (from Gary Gygax's Yggsburgh, these were nobles with lands adjacent to Yggsburgh 300 years ago)
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:29 pm  

    Rip, I'm pretty sure Nerof Gasgal is from commoner stock, as tAB mentions that he "will never gain acceptance among the nobility of the city because of his lowly birth."

    Other nobles of Greyhawk include the Silverfoxes, Wainwrights, Wheatsmills, Lockswells, Blackfairs, and Henways.

    There's also Bluto Sans Pite of Greyhawk, & Count Reichart Petrides of Urnst.
    GreySage

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    Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:14 pm  

    Robbastard wrote:
    Rip, I'm pretty sure Nerof Gasgal is from commoner stock,


    Yeah, you're right. I had assumed that if Lord Yrag (and Robilar) could be granted nobility by the Directing Oligarchy, then Nerof Gasgal could too. He probably could be, but this has seemingly not happened. "He wants to be a member of the aristocracy but is snubbed for his vulgar birth, accent, and sources of wealth." [TAB, 63]

    Greyhawk does distinguish between "old nobles" and "new nobles." The "old nobles" trace their lineage to appointments from the Overking: they include the Gynarch of Hardby (maybe all of the noble Hardby families?), the Wainwrights (who have an estate outside the city's east wall), and the Wheatsmills of the High Quarter (perhaps Lord Fradel is a Wheatsmill). "New nobles" were mostly granted nobility by Zagig, though a few (mostly nobles from other lands) were given noble status by the Directing Oligarchy. They include the Lockswells of the Gnarley Forest, the Blackfairs of the Ery River, Lord Yrag, Otto, Tenser (though perhaps not officially, nobody's going to question Tenser's status to his face), and the Silverfoxes and Henways of the High Quarter (Lord Fradel could be one of these, too).

    Okay, interesting. That gives us an idea of where some of the various noble fiefs are located, too.

    Perhaps Ayelerach is a Blackfriar, since some sources (MMII) call him a cleric. I'm not sure if Lockswell is a perfectly ironic name for someone who helped accidentally free Fraz-Urb'luu or a terrible one.

    Most of the Oligarchs aren't nobles. "The Directors are seen as upper class, certainly, but not on the level of the old nobility and barely on a level with the new. Nerof Gasgal is on equal footing with the Magister of Dyvers."
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:07 am  

    Ouch I am still elaborating all this stuff. There's a lot to do.
    Expecially since Houses and Families tend to blend here and there. I suppose numbering after the name are exclusive of Royal Houses (hence Tavish I or Trevlyan III even if he is no King). Which brings me to King Kimbertos I Lizhal of the Skottis (hhhm?).
    As for the barbarians, what about
    Royal House Hartensen vassal of House Schnai
    Royal House Bearhear vassal of House Cruskii
    * King Lolgoff Bearhear
    Royal House Rälffson vassal of House Frutzii
    * King Hundgred Rälffson

    or maybe Hartensen, Bearhear, Rälffson are just Families? Obviously sen and son could just stand as "son of", that could bring us to
    King Hundgred Frutzii Son of Rälf or King Hundgred Rälffson of the Frutzii

    Bastards in this are are quite objously "Snow". Or could be nice if we called them "Snow" "Frost" and "Ice" therefore making the term Ice Barbarians for instance, just an Oeridian joke about those lands being ruled by barbarians (using the greek meaning of the term) that occupy the land where "ice bastards" are born.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:40 am  

    The barbarians seem to use some variation of the ancient Norse naming system, which is still used in Iceland by most people. Given name followed by name of father+suffix ending indicating sex of person; -sson for males, -sdottir for females. With the Barbarians it looks like they at least use -son or -sen, the latter possibly a dialectal variation used by the Schnai. Working with this I also assume that the current king of the Schnai, Ingemar Hartensen is the nephew or other close relation of the former king, Orvung, since he's not Ingemar Orvungsen. With Lolgoff, I'm assuming Bearhear is a byname or epithet, which was also common in Norse culture, with names like Erik Bloodaxe, Harald Bluetooth, or Sven Forkbeard. Maybe Lolgoff has the hearing of a bear, or 'hear' could be a Commonization of a word in the Cold Tongue. Here in Anglo-saxon meant 'army.' Maybe Lolgoff fights like an army of bears? If any of the Barbarians were to adopt Aerdian-style surnames I'd guess it would be the Fruztii, but I don't think they're there yet.

    If you want to use an ASOIF naming system for noble bastards in Aeridy, what about using the heraldry of the respective provinces and kingdoms? You could even extend this to former GK provinces like Furyondy. Velunan bastards could be Moon, South Province bastards could be Boar, North Province Dragonsun. You might spice it up by using Latin words for those (or Italian or French, or another language you would relate Old Oeridian to).
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    Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:43 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    If you want to use an ASOIF naming system for noble bastards in Aeridy, what about using the heraldry of the respective provinces and kingdoms? You could even extend this to former GK provinces like Furyondy. Velunan bastards could be Moon, South Province bastards could be Boar, North Province Dragonsun. You might spice it up by using Latin words for those (or Italian or French, or another language you would relate Old Oeridian to).

    Kudos for the barbarian stuff, I have something to think about.
    Regardingh the idea above, it is BRILLIANT! Even though I would probably wrap up some countries together (es. all Keoland/Gran March/Geoff/Yeomanry etc.). I am undecided on the Bandit Kingdoms since I assume they are a lot of independent lordships with a common Oeridian past. I guess Shieldlanders, hordedlanders, bandits and ex-Ferrondian could share the same bastard naming system.
    Now what about Iuz? Shall we keep the old Oeridian names since his was an oeridian independent lordship as well?
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    Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:17 am  

    You could say that Shield Lands, BK, and Iuz were all part of the Viceroyalty of Furyondy (At least I think they all were), so they could use the same name for bastards in them, although so was Veluna, and we talked about them using a different name. If you're making it a custom derived from the GK you could also say that people kept the custom but some started using a different name with independence. Shield Landers could use Axe, Iuzians could use Skull (I was working on an article about the heraldry of Iuz (the nation) and had one noble family that maintained power under Iuz's rule as having changed the roses on their shield to skulls). The BK would probably be a mix of things, different for each kingdom, given how chaotic they are -- Rook for Rookroost, Clover for Reyhu, Morningstar for Johrase, etc... Those are the easy ones. No one is quite sure about what the other shields represent.
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    Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:15 am  

    Slightly off-topic, but I'd been thinking about relating Aerdy royal houses to the Great Houses of ASoIaF, to better help my players relate to them. Here's what I've come up with so far. Feedback is welcome.

    Code:
    AERDY HOUSE      WESTEROS HOUSE
    Cranden          Stark
    Darmen           Lannister
    Garasteth        Arryn
    Naelax           Baratheon
    Rax              Targaryen
    Torquann         Greyjoy

    Obviously, none of these is a perfect fit (though Darmen=Lannister was an easy choice). Anyone have better suggestions?
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    Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:49 pm  

    MToscan wrote:
    Now what about Iuz? Shall we keep the old Oeridian names since his was an oeridian independent lordship as well?


    I think that depends on two things:

    1. Does Iuz still bother with the charade that he's the descendant of an Oeridian bandit-lord, or is he open about the fact that he is, by most definitions of the word, a bastard himself? I'm not sure he would dare call himself Graz'zt's heir because demon lords don't have heirs - Graz'zt intends to live forever, and if one of his by-blows declared his intention to succeed him that would be tantamount to a declaration of war. Yet does anyone still even pretend to believe that Iuz is the rightful son of Prince Hoegbotton of the Howling Hills (or whoever; I don't think the petty lord who supposedly sired Iuz is named in canon)?

    2. Are any descendants of the old Oeridian lords left in Iuz? Or all the local lords all replaced? Looking through Iuz the Evil and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer I don't see any local rulers who are likely to be of Oeridian noble descent.

    It could well be that none of the local rulers of Iuz's empire have reigned for long enough for questions of succession or paternity to be an issue among them. Most of his minions seem to have been installed by Iuz himself based on their loyalty, power, and wickedness. Most of them are members of his Boneheart or priesthood. Some of the local rulers in Iuz's empire are orcs or orogs. I wouldn't call Iuz's kingdom a meritocracy exactly, but it doesn't seem to be ruled along traditional feudal lines. It seems very unlikely that any descendant of Halga or Jumper will inherit their positions; as soon as any of Iuz's servants grow old or weak some ambitious underling will murder them, or Iuz himself will devour them, and that will be that.
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    Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:05 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:
    Slightly off-topic, but I'd been thinking about relating Aerdy royal houses to the Great Houses of ASoIaF, to better help my players relate to them. Here's what I've come up with so far. Feedback is welcome.

    Code:
    AERDY HOUSE      WESTEROS HOUSE
    Cranden          Stark
    Darmen           Lannister
    Garasteth        Arryn
    Naelax           Baratheon
    Rax              Targaryen
    Torquann         Greyjoy

    Obviously, none of these is a perfect fit (though Darmen=Lannister was an easy choice). Anyone have better suggestions?


    Those sound like pretty good choices. Obviously there's nothing northernly about Cranden, but to some degree they're the "honorable" house. The Darmens are rich and always pay their debts. The Garasteths are isolationist and traditional. The Naelaxes recently ascended to the throne and their king is evil and despotic. The Raxes are extinct, as far as anyone knows, and their last kings were mad. The Torquanns are gray and severe and live on the coast.
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    Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:17 am  

    Lots of stuff to crunch eheh.
    BTW, since we're at it, the tricky part is binding families and houses to a specific territory. What are the domains (and headquarters) of these major houses?
    I also think basically every high religious figure is member of some noble house (like it was common in the middle ages). Spidasa of Medegia could be born Spidasa Naelax of maybe we have been Kahabros Naelax and become Spidasa I when he got the charge.
    I also assumed Hazen was from a noble family as well.
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    Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:03 am  

    MToscan wrote:
    What are the domains (and headquarters) of these major houses?


    The Garasteths are based in Rel Astra. When they ruled the Kingdom of Aerdy, Rel Astra was its capital.

    The Darmens are based in Kalstrand.

    The Naelaxes historically ruled North Province and continue to rule North Kingdom. Eastfair is their traditional place of power, but after the extermination of the House of Rax they ruled Rauxes as well.

    The House of Cranden was probably originally (and continues to be) associated with Rel Deven. Almor is named after a Cranden prince, and Almor has traditionally been under their control.

    The House of Nyrond ruled the ancient Oeridian kingdom of Nehron. When the Great Kingdom conquered it, members of the House of Rax were given control of the newly created province of Nyrond; they joined with House Nyrond and became the House of Rax-Nyrond, accepting Nyrond as the junior branch of their house. When Nyrond seceded from the Great Kingdom, its rulers went back to calling themselves House Nyrond. House Rax ultimately went more or less extinct, but their junior branch still survives. Its capital is, of course, Rel Mord.

    Torquann's lands were probably originally based around Mentrey. They dominate trade and commerce on the eastern coast, but are opposed by the Garasteths. They currently control Atirr. Rinloru, Bilebrine, and the southeast.

    House Atirr originally ruled Atirr, but they're thought to be extinct now.

    It's probable that the rulers of Ferrond Province once belonged to one of these houses. My guess is that it was the Darmens or the Crandens. But maybe not.
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    Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:21 am  

    I just read/realized that Against The Gients is set in Sterich and not Geoff, UGH! So any notes you might want to share on noble families of Sterich? Especially noble families of Sterich "at the time ATG" is set? BTW who was the king of Keoland at the time?
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    Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:04 am  

    MToscan wrote:
    I just read/realized that Against The Gients is set in Sterich and not Geoff, UGH! So any notes you might want to share on noble families of Sterich? Especially noble families of Sterich "at the time ATG" is set? BTW who was the king of Keoland at the time?


    Kimbertos Skotti was Keoland's king in 576 CY. Queen of the Spiders mentions that the Viscount of Javan is subordinate to the Earl of Sterich. The Viscount isn't named because his son is supposed to be one of the PCs' henchmen. The supermodule says that the Viscount of Javan and his two sons have "the royal blood of Keoland in his veins," so they're probably related to Kimbertos Skotti (and House Lizhal), unless this refers to a different royal house.

    The Earl of Sterich at the time was Querchard. His wife, Resbin Dren Emondav, spends little time in Sterich, living in her distant homeland for most of the year. Dungeon #117 says that Sterich is "the hereditary seat of the House of Qualtaine, modest rulers largely content to enjoy the wealth of vast mining operations." The nobles of the House of Qualtaine are descended from Sterich's first earl, Qualtaine of Geoff. Sterich has a reputation for "low nobility" because Qualtaine and his successors avidly granted titles and land to anyone who donated enough money to the earldom's coffers.

    In Dungeon #117, Count Tavisham Barclay is a distant relative of the House of Rhola and heir to one of the noble estates of Sterich (and a werewolf). At the time of the GDQ series, he and his family are living in Keoland (and he is perhaps not yet a werewolf). Still, the Barclay family definitely has noble claims in Sterich.

    One of the first to be granted nobility by the Earl of Sterich were the House of Oester (mentioned in Dungeon #118), distant relatives of the House of Qualtaine. However, their name became synonymous with ill-luck when their manor fell into a sinkhole 350 years ago. They may have all died.
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    Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:39 am  

    Here it is

    Ruling House: House Qualtaine, originates from the (should be of some Geoff noble house to tie in blood relations) Suel warlord Qualtaine of Geoff which is therefore patriarch of the Ruling House.
    Lord Querchard Qualtaine head of Hosue Qualtaine based in Istivin, married with Lady Resbin Dren Emondav, of House Dren Emoldav.

    Minor Houses (aka Families) are
    * House Dren Emondav, loyal to House (Qualtaine?)
    * House Javan, ruled by Lord Josef Javan, loyal to House Lizhal. Protectors of the East
    * House Barclay, ruled by Lord Tavisham Barclay, loyal to House Rhola of Keoland.
    * House Oester, scattered in various secondary manors in Sterich, loyal to House Qualtaine.
    * House Jarmaath, formal protectors of the West and owners of Castle Mittleberg, loyal to House Qualtaine.
    * House Kaal loyal to House Jarmaath (formally)
    GreySage

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    Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:25 am  

    MToscan wrote:
    * House Dren Emondav, loyal to House (Qualtaine?)


    Note that this is just one person, and she isn't native to Sterich. It's speculated that she might be from Zahind.

    Quote:
    * House Barclay, ruled by Lord Tavisham Barclay, loyal to House Rhola of Keoland.


    Tavisham Barclay doesn't live in Sterich at the time of the GDQ series (and he may be very young); the house would be headed by some relative of his who presumably dies in the interim.
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    Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:38 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Queen of the Spiders mentions that the Viscount of Javan is subordinate to the Earl of Sterich.


    I would be interested in knowing where this Viscountcy of "Javan" is? Shocked

    The only "Javan" I've ever "seen" is Javan Ferry which is part of the County of Flen and very near -- perhaps some 15 miles -- to the City of Flen, the "County Seat." (Paizo Map) Confused

    I'm doing a write-up on Javan Ferry at this time.
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    Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:29 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I would be interested in knowing where this Viscountcy of "Javan" is?


    In Sterich, probably adjacent to the Javan River.
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    Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:07 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    In Sterich, probably adjacent to the Javan River.


    Thanks, Rasgon. The Paizo maps don't show it, however. They do show a Johann's End, which -- according to an article by Gary Holian -- is/was the first "town" liberated by the forces of Keoland and was used as a headquarters by Keolandish forces for the retaking of the rest of the Earldom.

    South of this, across the Davish River, lies the city of Fitela. Nothing else until the capital of Istivin. Sad

    Now I have to go and search Queen of the Spiders for every scrap of information! Laughing Laughing Laughing


    Edit: Okay, I've read it. As is to be expected, no "exact" location is given. For my work, I'm going to place it within Sterich, on the west bank of the Javan River, with Johann's End as the Viscount's city.

    Another Edit: Well . . . damn! Johann's End no doubt refers to "Big Johann," a Frost Giant the adventurers killed in the town, thus a renaming of the town. Buggar! Mad

    (We really need a "hand in face" emoticon!) Laughing
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    Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:35 pm  

    I'd add that nobles don't, strictly speaking, need to rule cities. Cities were often free locations outside of the jurisdiction of feudal lords to which serfs fled to escape their bondage. Nobles just need manors where they can live while they collect taxes from the local farms.
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    Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:32 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    I'd add that nobles don't, strictly speaking, need to rule cities.


    An excellent point. I was just "running" with the notion/reality that towns and "cities" usually sprang up around the Lord's castle . . . for protective purposes.
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    Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:25 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    MToscan wrote:
    I just read/realized that Against The Gients is set in Sterich and not Geoff, UGH! So any notes you might want to share on noble families of Sterich? Especially noble families of Sterich "at the time ATG" is set? BTW who was the king of Keoland at the time?


    Kimbertos Skotti was Keoland's king in 576 CY. Queen of the Spiders mentions that the Viscount of Javan is subordinate to the Earl of Sterich. The Viscount isn't named because his son is supposed to be one of the PCs' henchmen. The supermodule says that the Viscount of Javan and his two sons have "the royal blood of Keoland in his veins," so they're probably related to Kimbertos Skotti (and House Lizhal), unless this refers to a different royal house.

    The Earl of Sterich at the time was Querchard. His wife, Resbin Dren Emondav, spends little time in Sterich, living in her distant homeland for most of the year. Dungeon #117 says that Sterich is "the hereditary seat of the House of Qualtaine, modest rulers largely content to enjoy the wealth of vast mining operations." The nobles of the House of Qualtaine are descended from Sterich's first earl, Qualtaine of Geoff. Sterich has a reputation for "low nobility" because Qualtaine and his successors avidly granted titles and land to anyone who donated enough money to the earldom's coffers.

    In Dungeon #117, Count Tavisham Barclay is a distant relative of the House of Rhola and heir to one of the noble estates of Sterich (and a werewolf). At the time of the GDQ series, he and his family are living in Keoland (and he is perhaps not yet a werewolf). Still, the Barclay family definitely has noble claims in Sterich.

    One of the first to be granted nobility by the Earl of Sterich were the House of Oester (mentioned in Dungeon #118), distant relatives of the House of Qualtaine. However, their name became synonymous with ill-luck when their manor fell into a sinkhole 350 years ago. They may have all died.


    Dungeon #118 notes Pelman Drudd, a powerful merchant lord of Istivin, who has managed to "reascend" to the Council of Barons. That is confusing because he then has petitioned the Marchioness for a "noble grant." But then this could refer to a grant of land directly from the Marchioness, instead of just the land he's managed to buy, which could possibly confer a higher social-status/more political power on him. The latter is just my theory. It also states that Drudd has been influential in Sterich for decades.

    The map of Istivin in DNG #118 shows an Oliphant House (vacant), as one of the houses on Brink's Hill, which is where the houses of nobles and the well-to-do are located. This could just be the name of the house or there could be an Oliphant family.

    In addition there's the western barony of Astarikan, and one of the richest tracts of farmland in Sterich. It was ruled by Lord Baron Harker Elvenac. Maybe it's referred to in a LG adventure or elsewhere, but by Spring, 591 the Lord Baron was thought to have been deceased (That seemed to be going around in Sterich) and the Marchioness dissolved Astarikan's charter, making it her sovereign property. For some time before that, the Lord Baron's cousins, Etrin Van-Malligan and Varrus Kline were in dispute over who would inherit it. This is all from p. 30 of LGJ #1.

    On p. 30 of LGJ #2 the western town of Ilaren, assumed by me to be in the County of Garinac, is named. I also presumed that the dwarven Prince Durrok Korend, who is intent on re-capturing the nearby dwarven citadel of Num-Theraz, is either the former ruler or heir to that citadel.

    P.30 of LGJ #3 gives Num-Theraz as being inside the borders of the County of Garinac. IMC I made the various dwarven princedoms, semi-independent, owing fealty to the Marquess, but otherwise acting freely. But that's my own thing. It also mentions Lindus Mallaman, ranking priest of Heironeous in Istivin, so you could conflate a house of Mallaman as a family of Sterich nobles from that. I did.
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    Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:14 pm  

    I thought of mentionong him, but my reading was that Drudd is definitely not yet a noble, just a powerful merchant. Note that the council of barons considers him an outsider.; his money has bought him a voice there ( as it had before the invasion) but hasn't made him one of them. I'm pretty sure the noble grant he's looking for would be his first, for all that he has three levels in aristocrat.
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    Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:26 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    I thought of mentionong him, but my reading was that Drudd is definitely not yet a noble, just a powerful merchant. Note that the council of barons considers him an outsider.; his money has bought him a voice there ( as it had before the invasion) but hasn't made him one of them. I'm pretty sure the noble grant he's looking for would be his first, for all that he has three levels in aristocrat.


    I'd argue against this interpretation. It says he reestablished himself in Sterich's Council of Barons after the reclamation of Sterich. By my reading, given that he has a history of several decades as a powerful individual in Sterich, that means he was already on the Council, and I don't see non-nobles sitting on the Council of Barons. By his "outsider status" I assume that means he was elevated to the nobility through his financial wheeling and dealing, which would probably lead to the traditional nobility looking down on him as an upstart and outsider. But there's no right or wrong answer here.
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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:25 am  

    Is there an official take on the House of Belissica of Urnst?
    I know Karll is of House Lorinal, but I can't find info on Belissica.
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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:56 am  

    Gellor is the ruling house of the County.
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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:35 am  

    Where do you get the name of the Baronies and Counties of Sterich? I could not find anything on Google on Garinac etc.
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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:52 am  

    I tried a google search too, and interestingly, the only thing I came up with was some guy with a Wizard's Community site for his campaign. I was hoping he might link to more info, but then spotted a lot of NPC names that I had come up with for my campaign. So, looks like he must be using my Sterich page as source material! Pretty cool! My Sterich campaign lives on, at least in some form. Happy

    As far as canon material, most of what I have is from the Shadows of the Abyss adventures, and the accompanying background article on Istivin. The stuff on the Garinacs, Van Malligans, and Astarikan I got from some of the early Living Greyhawk Journals. I can pull together a brief on this material with quotes and citations if you give me a day or two. I'm pretty sure I still have your email address. If not I'll PM you.
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    Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:17 am  

    This topic is goldmine for guys playing in Sterich! Cool So I ask where to find more infro about March and it's nobility outside of Living Greyhawk Gazteer?
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    Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:12 pm  

    Lengthy reply, but most everything I have is from the linked adventures Touch of the Abyss (Dungeon # 117), Shadow of the Abyss (Dungeon # 118), and Wrath of the Abyss (Dungeon # 119), and the accompany article in Dungeon # 117, Istivin: City of Shadows. All these issues can be downloaded from Paizo.com, and issues # 117 and 119 are also available as print issues.

    I'll quote the bits from issues 1 and 2 of the Living GH Journal below, since they are kind of hard to find sources, and are just a few paragraphs --

    From Living Greyhawk Journal #1, Dispatches, p. 30 – Spring, 591 CY

    ‘The Marchioness, Resbin Dren Emondav, has declared the western barony of Astarikan her sovereign property, thus dissolving the original charter on the land, held by the thought-deceased Lord Baron Harker Elvenac. The move not only brings to an official end the struggle between the former baron’s antagonistic cousins, Etrin Van Malligan and Varrus Kline, but it also grants one of the richest tracts of farmland in the March of Sterich to the direct control of the Marchioness. Few believe that the feuding cousins will resolve their differences any time soon, but with the goal of their bickering hopelessly out of reach (and in the hands of the sovereign in Krelont Keep) it is hoped that the matter is all but resolved.’

    From Living Greyhawk Journal #2, Dispatches, p. 30 – Spring, 591 CY

    ‘It has been three years since the County of Garinac, on Sterich’s western fringe, was freed from the control of savage humanoids. Since then the dwarven citadel of Num-Theraz, fortified in a deep valley in the Crystalmists, has served as a rallying point for the remnants of the orcs, gnolls and kobolds who once held the entire nation. Prince Durrock Korend has mustered a small army of dwur in the western town of Ilaren for the final push into the mountains. For the first time (after much pressure from dwarves throughout Sterich) the Marchioness has pledged a company of halberdiers to the effort.’

    From Living Greyhawk Journal #2, Dispatches, p. 30 – Spring, 591 CY

    ‘Tragedy has befallen Lindus Mallaman, Istivin’s ranking priest of Heironeous. Mallaman, a leading figure in the city’s religious community and perhaps the strongest proponent of the so-called Purifier faction (influential citizens who believe the city to have changed in some fundamentally evil way during the occupation) was discovered hanging by his feet from the basalt statue of the Valorous Knight, his hands missing and his body scarred by electrical burns, as if charred by several bolts of lightning. As if in mourning, the statue seeped blood from its wrists for three days thereafter.
    Dwur Prince Durrock Korend’s bid to oust the savage humanoids infesting the conquered dwarven citadel of Num-Theraz, on the Crystalmist border in County Garinac fares poorly. Though the dwarves under his banner fought bravely in the opening assault, the human halberdiers provided by the Marchioness folded quickly in battle against a nearly endless stream of orcs and gnolls. Korend has put out a call to his dwur brethren in nearby states, but has yet to appreciate sizeable reinforcements.’
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    Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:52 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Lengthy reply, but most everything I have is from the linked adventures Touch of the Abyss (Dungeon # 117), Shadow of the Abyss (Dungeon # 118), and Wrath of the Abyss (Dungeon # 119), and the accompany article in Dungeon # 117, Istivin: City of Shadows. All these issues can be downloaded from Paizo.com, and issues # 117 and 119 are also available as print issues.


    Will see - good adventures are always in price. Wink

    smillan_31 wrote:
    From Living Greyhawk Journal #2, Dispatches, p. 30 – Spring, 591 CY

    ‘It has been three years since the County of Garinac, on Sterich’s western fringe, was freed from the control of savage humanoids. Since then the dwarven citadel of Num-Theraz, fortified in a deep valley in the Crystalmists, has served as a rallying point for the remnants of the orcs, gnolls and kobolds who once held the entire nation. Prince Durrock Korend has mustered a small army of dwur in the western town of Ilaren for the final push into the mountains. For the first time (after much pressure from dwarves throughout Sterich) the Marchioness has pledged a company of halberdiers to the effort.’


    Maybe use this in my campaign, as my player is playing the dwarf from Sterich that has lived the massacre of his clan and citadel. Evil Grin Bonus question: Num-Theraz was mountain dwarves, not hill dwarves citadel?
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    Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:20 am  

    Does anybody have the names of the olven houses of Celene? What's Yolande's house? I know she has two cousins but one is a Brightflame and the other (can't remember) could be of the same house?
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    Tue May 21, 2013 1:06 am  

    Any ideas for Ser Kargoth of Mansbridge's noble house?
    GreySage

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    Tue May 21, 2013 3:36 am  

    Kargoth belonged to House Torquann.

    Ren o' the Star's description in Greyhawk Adventures mentioned a noble house of Celene that his elven father belonged to.
    GreySage

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    Tue May 21, 2013 6:37 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Ren o' the Star's description in Greyhawk Adventures mentioned a noble house of Celene that his elven father belonged to.


    This is the House of Paraleen. Ren's last name is Fitzparaleen, because he's (being a half-elf) not recognized as a legitimate heir.

    Yolande may belong to the House of Bellmeadow.
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    Tue May 21, 2013 7:27 pm  

    The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer refers to Yolande as "Yolande of Bellmeadow." If that's not a place name, it might be her house.

    There's some thin evidence for the existence of a House of Koehlanna in Celene. The Complete Book of Elves tells of a legendary elven prince called Drawmij Koehlanna. Living Greyhawk Journal #0 says that the Drawmij we know, Drawmij of the Circle of Eight, has connections to Celene. "The mage speaks of contacts within the realm of Celene... Whether for reasons of politics or something more sinister, however, few in Enstad admit to any sort of connection with the man." So perhaps our Drawmij was named for a legendary Celenese figure. That's not really firm ground for drawing conclusions, though. Even if Drawmij Koehlanna was Celenese, his house might not exist anymore.

    Paraleen sounds a bit like Peralay, the renamed Melf figure from the D&D toy line. Maybe Melf is Ren o' the Star's father? Or even his half-brother. But I think it's more likely that Melf belongs to a House of Brightflame.
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    Sat May 25, 2013 3:14 pm  

    I'm working my way though the LG stuff and there are tons of notes on noble houses both major and minor.
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    Thu May 30, 2013 8:58 am  

    I know it might be obvious but Belvor III's House was Rax-Nyrond or Just Nyrond? A friend of mine who is of noble descent told me minor houses sometimes ask to join by name houses of higher prestige therefore the subsequent name is Minorhouse-Majorhouse but that doesn't mean necessarily the houses become one and the same, for example we have several Savoias from secondary branches in Italian nobility, but Savoias are still the ruling house.
    Any thoughts?
    Maybe the nomeclature is inverted and the minor house of Nyrond joined House Rax?
    We could have
    House Rax (extincyt) and House Rax Nyrond or
    House Nyrond and House Rax-Nyrond (which is the extinct one)
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    Fri May 31, 2013 6:43 am  

    The house of Nyrond was a junior branch of the house of Rax at the time of Nyrond's (the country) rebellion, and were "openly contempt(uous)" of their Rax cousins, although I don't know if it's ever stated what house Medven I, first King of Nyrond was from.

    EDIT: Sorry, just realized you said Belvor III. I don't believe anyone has ever determined if it was a branch of one of the Celestial Houses that spawned the royal house of Furyondy.
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    Fri May 31, 2013 12:47 pm  

    I've been calling Belvor III's house the House of Fairwain, but yeah, really we don't know. Since the House of Rax is supposed to be mostly extinct, though, he probably isn't part of it. Furyondy's royal family might be Darmen or Cranden, for all we know.
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    Fri May 31, 2013 1:01 pm  

    Another question on the Coat of Arms.
    Any idea on how to contempate the complete change of the coa of the Principality of Ulek over time?

    After
    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/heraldry/images/Principality_Ulek.gif

    Before
    http://www.oocities.org/timessquare/lair/8572/pulek.gif

    I'd guess one of the two is the Coat of Arms of House Corond.
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    Fri May 31, 2013 1:16 pm  

    One thing we do know is that Viceroy of Ferrond was not at first a hereditary position, but then the same could have been true of Nyrond, which eventually came under a cadet branch of Rax. If Furyondy did come under the rulership of a Celestial House, it could have followed the same model as Nyrond and taken the name of the Viceroyalty as its house name, so it could have been Ferrond. But that wraps things up a little too neatly for me.
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    Fri May 31, 2013 2:27 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    One thing we do know is that Viceroy of Ferrond was not at first a hereditary position.


    Do we know that? The viceroys surely served at the Overking's pleasure, but I don't see anything that says that the office didn't normally pass from father to son (or daughter). I don't see any difference, from an administrative point of view, between the Viceroyalty of Ferrond and the three other Viceroyalties. Nyrond, South Province, and North Province were each awarded to Celestial Houses, so it makes sense that Ferrond would have been, too.

    Granted, there was an interruption in the case of North Province, which was initially given to House Naelax but which was given instead to House Atirr between 134-223 CY. And rule of Zelradton eventually passed to House Naelax-Selor (a junior branch of House Naelax) and then to House Naelax (Reydrich's house) just prior to the Great Kingdom's dissolution. But it seems to have been otherwise hereditary.

    Living Greyhawk Gazetteer wrote:
    The Great Kingdom was quickly becoming too vast to effectively control from Rauxes, so the overkings appointed viceroys to rule the major provinces. The viceroys had near total autonomy within their realms to efficiently deal with local problems, answering only to the Malachite Throne. By 100 CY, there were four such viceroys. One in Zelradton administered South Province (awarded to House Cranden), and a counterpart in Eastfair controlled North Province (awarded to House Naelax). The empire’s borders had by now reached all the way to the Fals Gap and the mountainous Quaglands. Manshen, the first Rax overking, divided these marklands in 100 CY, forming two vast provinces around the Nyr Dyv, one in the east and one in the west. The Viceroyalty of Nyrond, which eventually included Urnst, was ruled from Rel Mord by a junior branch of House Rax. A viceroy in Dyvers administered the Viceroyalty of Ferrond, including its Northern Reaches (now Perrenland and lands north and northeast of the Vesve Forest).


    Ferrond is, strangely, the only viceroyalty that isn't explicitly given to a house. Perhaps it should be Darmen or Torquann by process of elimination, though there may well have been another minor Aerdi house, otherwise unattested to, that won Ferrond.

    Regardless, it seems that some of Furyondy's noble families are Aerdi in origin, while some, oddly given Furyondy's low Flan population and the general disrespect the Oeridians seem to have given them, seem to have been originally Flan.

    Living Greyhawk Gazetteer wrote:
    The viceroy ruled fairly from Dyvers, where he was attended by scores of noble families culled from the Great Kingdom, as well as ennobled Flan who served Aerdy.


    Perhaps the Flan nobles were mostly from the Quaglands and the northern reaches. Of course, regard for the Flan was likely higher in Voll, where the Flannish faith of Rao had been adopted.

    Smillan_31 wrote:
    If Furyondy did come under the rulership of a Celestial House, it could have followed the same model as Nyrond and taken the name of the Viceroyalty as its house name


    Do you think that House Nyrond is simply named after the province? What, then, was the name of the ruling house of Nyrond before the Battle of a Fortnight's Length? My assumption was that the existing royal house was permitted to continue to exist after the Aerdi conquest in exchange for becoming a junior branch of the House of Rax, a Nyrond princess marrying a lesser Rax prince and their son designated heir to the viceroyalty.
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    Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:06 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    smillan_31 wrote:
    One thing we do know is that Viceroy of Ferrond was not at first a hereditary position.


    Do we know that?


    Yes. We do.

    "In 898 O.R. the heir to Viceroy Stinvri (The Viceroyalty had become hereditary some years previously) was crowned in Dyvers as Thrommel I, King of Furyondy..." WoGG, Folio Edition p. 10


    rasgon wrote:
    Smillan_31 wrote:
    If Furyondy did come under the rulership of a Celestial House, it could have followed the same model as Nyrond and taken the name of the Viceroyalty as its house name


    Do you think that House Nyrond is simply named after the province?


    Yes.

    rasgon wrote:
    What, then, was the name of the ruling house of Nyrond before the Battle of a Fortnight's Length?


    Don't know, but for all I know they didn't even have one. Maybe most post migration Oeridian noble families didn't have house names. Maybe it was just something weird that the Aerdi picked up from the Suel they conquered. In either case, most countries we have examples of in GH are named after tribal names, not the names of the family that rules them.

    rasgon wrote:
    My assumption was that the existing royal house was permitted to continue to exist after the Aerdi conquest in exchange for becoming a junior branch of the House of Rax, a Nyrond princess marrying a lesser Rax prince and their son designated heir to the viceroyalty.


    Could have been, but as far as I know either one of us could be right. I can see the dynastic union, but I doubt the Rax would have allowed the resulting heir to rule using the name of the previously-ruling native dynasty. To me it could be too much of a rallying point in the case of rebellion, and would just be asking for trouble.
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    Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:40 pm  

    Good points. I guess we can assume that none of the four viceroyalties were initially hereditary, but became so, unless you think Ferrond was unique in that respect and that's why it is alone in not having a named house.

    The tribal name of the founders of Nyrond was Nehron (The Adventure Begins, 57), and a House Nehron would be equivalent to a House Aerdi, which of course doesn't exist. "Nyrond" was a name coined by the Aerdi; The Adventure Begins suggests that this name was actually derived from the name of the Nyr Dyv and might not actually have an etymological connection to the name of the Nehron tribe. The House of Nyrond could have been a cadet branch of the House of Rax that named itself after the Aerdi name for the province they came to rule or they could have been the existing ruling family of Nyrond that was forced to join the House of Rax as a junior branch after the Aerdi conquest, changing their name to fit the Aerdi style. The former sounds more likely to me now, though I can't rule out intermarriage with the previous rulers.

    If the royal family of Nyrond changed their name in order to be less of a rallying point in case of rebellion, it had pretty much the opposite of the intended effect. Enough people rallied to the name 'House Nyrond' that the subsequent rebellion was entirely successful.

    If I read the chronology right, Rax-Nyrond was a junior branch of the House of Rax given control over the Viceroyalty of Nyrond in -109 CY. In 86 CY or so, Overking Manshen became a Rax-Nyrond by proclamation, probably after wedding a member of that house. Rax-Nyrond remained remained the name of the ruling dynasty until 356 CY, when the House of Nyrond dropped the 'Rax' from their name and the ruling dynasty of Aerdy dropped the 'Nyrond' part. Though only Ivid the Undying refers to the Overking's house as Rax-Nyrond; both the LGG and, now that I re-read it, the original history in the Folio/Guide seem to indicate that Aerdy was ruled by Rax, the senior branch, and the junior branch only ever ruled Nyrond. Which honestly makes more sense, so I guess I should assume an error on Sargent's part.

    In fact, the hyphenated form Rax-Nyrond only appears in Ivid the Undying. Elsewhere it's referred to as "the junior branch, then known as Nyrond" so perhaps it should be simply written as Nyrond or Nyrond-Rax. It wouldn't be Carl Sargent's only error in that book.

    The Book of Artifacts says that the House of Hyeric was once the ruling house of Nyrond until it was exterminated, at least in part due to the influence of the Eye of Vecna. I connected the House of Hyeric to the ruins of Star Haunt in the Celadon, but perhaps the house ruled in Rel Mord all the way up to -109 CY.

    It makes sense that the concept of royal houses was borrowed from the Suel, but there's some evidence that at least some Aerdi houses predated the Migrations (Johydee was a Cranden) and the words "house" and "tribe" were used interchangeably to describe the Migrations-era Suel political families.
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    Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:27 pm  

    Forgive me it was an error, as I was referring to Archbold's house, not Belvor's. I suppose it's House Nyrond then?
    Glad I mistakenly said Belvor, though, as this discussion about Nyrond is interesting!
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    Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:02 pm  

    MToscan wrote:
    I suppose it's House Nyrond then?


    Currently, yes.
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    Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:08 am  

    "Nyrond's strategic importance to the Great Kingdom did little to encourage just treatment at the hands of the Aerdi. The ruling house of the land was made subservient to the eastern House Rax, which ruled the territory..." LGG p. 77

    That, to me, definitely says that Nyrond's previous royal house, whatever its name, survived the conquest, though ranking beneath the Rax.

    "The Viceroyalty of Nyrond, which eventually included Urnst, was ruled from Rel Mord by a junior branch of House Rax." LGG p. 23

    "Though not as vile or ruthless as some of their counterparts to the east, the Rax nobles exhibited insufferable arrogance." LGG p. 77

    Again, pointing out that the Nyrond branch of the Rax were in charge.

    "His (Lynwerd's) younger brother, Sewardnt is the rare rotten apple in the Nyrondese lineage, a throwback to the most decadent of Rax's heritage." Marklands, p. 68

    So, yeah, this establishes that the current ruling house has descent from the Nyrondal branch of the Rax.

    TAB states that this branch was named Nyrond, "A second sundering of the empire came in 356 CY, when the ruling Aerdi dynasty (the House of Rax) was split by an internal feud. The junior branch, Nyrond, declared its lands free of the Overking's rule..." But that same work later says that, "During this time, the royal House of Rax-Nyrond rebelled and formed the Kingdom of Nyrond," seemingly leaving us with a contradiction. You could however interpret the first quote to mean that "Nyrond is the current name of this junior branch, so that's what we're going to call it, while referring to it's rebellion, even though technically, at the time it was called Rax-Nyrond." Regardless, I think it's safe to assume that the current name is, as Rasgon states, Nyrond.
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    Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:02 pm  

    It's a bit of a historical irony that as much talk as there was about characteristic Rax traits, the Rax Overkings were actually Crandens by patrilineal descent. Manshen's wife may have been a Rax, and his mother Yalranda might for all we know have been a Rax by birth (depending on whether or not you think the Children of Johydee, one of which which Yalranda was, are literally descendants of Johydee and therefore at least partly of Cranden blood). Yalranda was said to have a prophetic gift for forging alliances between houses, so Manshen's odd decision to change the name of his dynasty might have been her idea. I've suggested elsewhere that there might have been other reasons that Manshen avoided using the name of his father Tenmaris's house; perhaps he wasn't truly the disgusting Tenmaris's son at all, but the product of Yalranda's dalliance with a man of the Rax line. But if this wasn't the case, the Raxes of Nyrond might have had a truer (from a patrilineal standpoint) claim to the Rax name than the Raxes of Rauxes did.

    I wonder if that actually makes three major branches of the Rax family: the Rax-Nyronds, the previous House Rax, and then the descendants of Manshen. The previous head of the House wouldn't have been happy to have the Cranden Overking take his place; perhaps part of what was going on was that he fell into disfavor and Manshen had him executed.

    Smillan's quotes above do seem to indicate intermarriage with Nyrond's existing dynasty, to my mind. The Overking gives the office of Viceroy of Nyrond to a Rax prince (a younger son, not the heir to the eastern Rax lands, wherever they were; it seems like ruling Nyrond is a better deal than having a mere duchy or whatever in Aerdy, but Rel Mord was probably considered a backwater at the time and the Aerdy dukeship surely offered more direct access to the Overking and power in the imperial court). The viceroy of Nyrond marries a daughter of Nyrond's royal house in order to cement his position there among the natives. Because it seems silly to invent a new name for this, I'm going to assume that Nyrond's royal house was House Nehron. The viceroy's family becomes known as House Nyrond or House Rax-Nyrond in order to distinguish his line from the descendants of his older brother, House Rax. Other members of the old House Nehron still have positions as nobles and courtiers in order to make nice with the locals.

    In that way, members of House Nyrond definitely have Rax descent, but the preexisting royal family still exists, in subservient form.

    I'm going to say the fall of the House of Hyeric came prior to the Aerdi conquest, with its surviving members fleeing to Star Haunt after being overthrown by the House of Nehron. In an earlier survey of the history of the Hand and Eye of Vecna, I had this happening in -159 CY (it could easily have been much long before this) in order to place it chronologically between other mentions of the Eye's appearance in the order they were listed. I'd suggested before that House Hyeric was connected to a heretical cult of Celestian, but now I'm more inclined to connect them to the Cult of Starry Wisdom, a Nyarlathotep cult described in Cults of Freeport.
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    Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:49 pm  

    Very nicely put together, Rasgon, especially the three branches of Rax and the bit about Yalranda. One other thing I found in TAB that I forgot to mention was that the Aerdi pretty much immediately "corrupted" Nehron into Nehrond, which then presumably evolved into Nyrond. It's in that same section that decribes Nehr- and Nyr- as meaning "lake." So, it's safe to presume that the early Rax-Nyronds were Rax-Nehronds.
    From Ivid it seems safest to say that Manshen's wife was a Rax, although it could be interpreted to mean that Yalranda was a Rax, even though Ivid seems to be saying whichever one of them Manshen took the new house name from was a Rax-Nyrond. Could she (Yalrand or the unnamed wife) have been a Rax-Nyrond and then the Nyrond was dropped later?

    What's the source for Hyeric? Can't remember where it is, and it's not in the Encyclopedia.
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    Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:50 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    What's the source for Hyeric? Can't remember where it is, and it's not in the Encyclopedia.


    The Book of Artifacts, page 35. "The Eye [of Vecna] was instrumental in the extermination of the house of Hyeric, once the ruling dynasty of Nyrond." There doesn't seem to have been any break in the dynastic succession since Nyrond's independence, so I think it probably happened prior to the Battle of a Fortnight's Length.

    Star Haunt is from The Marklands. The connection with the House of Hyeric is entirely mine; the book only says that "The castle is said to have been built by an ancient Oeridian tribe overwhelmed by an inner madness." Possession of the Eye of Vecna would seem to qualify, though really this could be anything and "ancient Oeridian tribe" doesn't obviously mean the same thing as "former royal house." I'm thinking the castle was built back in the tribal days before their ascension to power.

    My interpretation is that Nehron is the word in the Nyrondese dialect of Old Oeridian and Nehrond is what the Aerdi called them; obviously, the people of Nehron wouldn't care much how the Aerdi pronounced their kingdom's name until the Aerdi actually conquered them. Nehron was the name of their tribe, which possibly was derived from living next to the Nyr Dyv for a time (either to the north of the lake before they were driven east by other migrants - possibly by the Aerdi - or in what is now the County of Urnst until the Urnstans kicked them out and drove them to the east).

    Whether the early Rax-Nyronds were Rax-Nehronds depends on whether the Aerdi word had evolved from Nehrond to Nyrond by that time.

    Quote:
    Could she (Yalrand or the unnamed wife) have been a Rax-Nyrond and then the Nyrond was dropped later?


    It's possible, and I think that's what Ivid the Undying implies, though if this was the case I can imagine the Overking stubbornly keeping the Nyrond in his house name regardless of what a rebellious province chooses to do. The Guide/Folio history doesn't suggest this, though, and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer seems to actively avoid calling the house anything but Rax.

    It mostly doesn't much matter what house Yalranda was born into; she married into the Crandens, prophesied to the Crandens, and reigned as a Cranden. She may have been the one who prompted Manshen to change his own House to Rax or Rax-Nyrond, but I think the implication is that Manshen's wife was a Rax (or Rax-Nyrond) regardless of what Yalranda originally was. It could have been that both his wife and mother were born into the Rax family, or it might have just been his wife. Perhaps his wife and mother belonged to two different branches of the Rax family.
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    Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:24 pm  

    Thanks for the source. I'll check it out. I finally just got the Book of Artifacts not too long ago and haven't really had a chance to digest it yet.

    The way it's stated in Ivid seems to indicate to me also that Manshen adopted his wife's name.

    Man, this thread has been fun!
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    Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:08 pm  

    What is the name of House of margraves Rollo and Walgar of Bissel?
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    Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:02 pm  

    MToscan wrote:
    What is the name of House of margraves Rollo and Walgar of Bissel?


    Mick, I asked the same question last year in this thread. The best guess was Skogend, because the Margrave was the Baron of Skogend. The source is LG Bissel. That's what I used IMC. I had the Skogends intermarried with the Qualtaines of Sterich; Querchard's aunt was married to Margrave Walgar. But that was so one of my players, who was the bastard grand-daughter of Margrave Walgar, would be related to the Qualtaine's also, since my campaign was taking place in Sterich. They were also intermarried with the Elgarins of the County of Flen through another of Querchard's aunts.
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    Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:10 am  

    That's good enough for me then. Thank you very much :)
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    Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:56 pm  

    MToscan wrote:
    That's good enough for me then. Thank you very much :)


    Prego! How is the wiki going?
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    Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:48 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    MToscan wrote:
    That's good enough for me then. Thank you very much :)


    Prego! How is the wiki going?

    Slow and steady. It's in Italian and quite chaotic in some parts, otherwise I'd gladly show it :) I am waiting for Anna to release the coat of arms for the major houses, so I could start working on family trees and so on (I'll probably grab the templates from Wikipedia, although they're a bit complex.
    I am going through all the WoG Folio right now, as it will be the basis for everything else.
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    Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:20 am  

    MToscan wrote:
    smillan_31 wrote:
    MToscan wrote:
    That's good enough for me then. Thank you very much :)


    Prego! How is the wiki going?

    Slow and steady. It's in Italian and quite chaotic in some parts, otherwise I'd gladly show it :) I am waiting for Anna to release the coat of arms for the major houses, so I could start working on family trees and so on (I'll probably grab the templates from Wikipedia, although they're a bit complex.
    I am going through all the WoG Folio right now, as it will be the basis for everything else.


    Cool! Is this pre-Wars? I got the impression that is the time-period for your campaign. Even in Italian, if you feel like sharing when it's done, I'd like a look at it. I've puzzled some good info out of some GH sites that are in French and German. Or at least I think I did. Wink
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    Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:32 am  

    Will certainly do once I have put some order in that mess, sometimes I had to translate names and I am not sure I had them identical sitewise :)
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    Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:36 am  

    Here I am again!
    Any ideas on possible houses/clans in Sunndi? What about Hazendel and the royal houses?

    Besides: "The County of Sunndi was once a fief within a fief, being granted to a loyal peer of the Overking's Herzog of the [[South Province]] of the Great Kingdom". Any idea who this peer was and the name of the Overking at the time?
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    Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:55 am  

    I admit I colpetely forgot this line from the original Folio, under Wild Coast: "Legendary natives of the Wild Coast include such persons as Mordenkainen, Robilar, and Tenser, to name but a few.".
    Just thought I could share.
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    Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:46 am  

    MToscan wrote:
    Here I am again!
    Any ideas on possible houses/clans in Sunndi? What about Hazendel and the royal houses?

    Besides: "The County of Sunndi was once a fief within a fief, being granted to a loyal peer of the Overking's Herzog of the [[South Province]] of the Great Kingdom". Any idea who this peer was and the name of the Overking at the time?


    Mick, there was a LG Sunndi group and their website is still available on the Wayback Machine. The Kingdom of Sunndi and Downloads pages look like they have much of the info you may want. As far as the identity of the peer, it might have been Azharadian, who conquered Sunndi for the Kingdom of Aerdy in -72 CY according to the Sunndi LG Triad.
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    Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:48 am  

    Thank you very much!
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    Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:19 am  

    Just a question about Woolly bay - does the term refer to "wool" or "uncertainty"? I need to know for a correct translation.
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    Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:34 am  

    MToscan wrote:
    Just a question about Woolly bay - does the term refer to "wool" or "uncertainty"? I need to know for a correct translation.


    I thought I had seen references to it partially being due to there being a lot of fog on the Bay, but I'm not seeing anything now. The mention in WoG as to its naming refers to how the ships moving on it are likely to be pirates as merchants, so I'd go with the second definition, although in english the meaning in the sense of being hazy or uncertain is derived from wool.
    GreySage

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    Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:47 am  

    It's based on the idiomatic expression "Wild and Woolly," meaning "marked by boisterous and untamed ways of living and by a lack of refinement." The Wild Coast is next to Woolly Bay because they're both exciting and uncivilized places to be.

    The best translation would use an equivalent idiom in your language, if there is one, rather than worrying about what meaning of "woolly" is being referenced. Really, the answer is that it isn't actually referring to the word "woolly" at all. Think of a word meaning "unrefined," perhaps, in the sense of wool that hasn't been spun into yarn yet or in some other sense more fitting for a body of water.

    Honestly, just give it any name that sounds cool to you because the name Woolly is only ever going to make sense in English and doesn't even make much sense in English. It can't be translated directly without losing the original connotation.

    In Italian, "chiassossa," "bruta," "cruda," or "grezza" might work.
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    Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:10 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    In Italian, "chiassossa," "bruta," "cruda," or "grezza" might work.


    All I've got is Wiktionary to work with, but "confuse" seemed to be a good approximation; "Baia Confuso"? Baia Grezza sounds cooler, at least to an English-speaker who knows nothing about Italian other than a few lines from Dante. Wink
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    Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:04 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    rasgon wrote:
    In Italian, "chiassossa," "bruta," "cruda," or "grezza" might work.


    All I've got is Wiktionary to work with, but "confuse" seemed to be a good approximation..."


    -How about using Crazy Bay or Wild Bay? The later would give the bay the same name as the region, which might or might not be a problem.
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    Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:25 pm  

    Forgive (or not) the thread necro here but my thoughts have returned to this topic (mostly due to rewatching GOT before the new season comes out) and another issue I would want to address in GH is the position of the church.

    Obviously, there is the Old Faith as has been mentioned above but the Oeridians, for example, have 27 gods in all. How could that be incorporated into a single faith (assuming you wanted to as I would).

    What about the Nine (or Seven to mirror the Aerdy Houses) Great Houses of the gods. Could each Aerdy House have a patron god / house of gods?

    Just some initial thoughts....
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:37 pm  

    The Oeridian gods don't really work as a cohesive pantheon unless you add deities.

    At the very least, you need to add the common gods. They need a god of magic, they need a god of the sun, they need a god of death, they need an oerth mother, and so on. By now, whoever the Oeridian tribes worshiped 1,000 years ago, they're an integral part of the pantheon.

    The Oeridian gods in particular need at least another generation of elder gods to properly explain where they came from. Who were Celestian and Fharlanghn's parents? If Merikka is a cousin of the wind gods, who were her parents and grandparents? Who were Heironeous and Hextor's fathers? Who were Zilchus and Kurell's parents? The Oeridian gods are full of pairs of siblings, which implies that they have parents. If they don't, what makes them siblings? Did they hatch out of different sets of uncreated eggs at the beginning of time? Possible, but not very interesting.

    Remember that the Oeridians don't exist anymore. The Oeridians have been dead for a thousand years. Except for scholars, almost no one speaks the Old Oeridian tongue. Almost no one is of purely Oeridian blood. No one's going to worship "the Oeridian pantheon" as if that's a thing that anyone still cares about in the modern age. Since the Great Migrations new gods have arisen, old ones have faded into obscurity, and the old pantheons have both blended and split.

    So it's not going to be as simple as "each pantheon is a religion." Religions are going to be shaped by politics more than anything. People in the Great Kingdom believe what they believe because the Holy Censor of Medegia decreed it, and if they didn't they'd be burnt as heretics. The people in the Pale believe something else because the Pale was settled by people who fled the Great Kingdom after a religious schism. The people of Nyrond have different beliefs than the Great Kingdom because the two nations have a history of war and hatred which prevents ecumenical cooperation and encourages differentiation.

    That's not to say that people aren't influenced by the mix of peoples who settled their nation, just that there's a lot of room for theological change since then.

    Most churches are going to be state churches, or associated with cleric-led states like Veluna, Almor, Medegia, the Pale, and Ekbir. Keoland doesn't have a state church, so religion there is less homogeneous and more full of charismatic cults.

    Remember that religion is more than a list of gods; it's a set of beliefs about the origin of the world, the nature of the afterlife and the soul, the origin of evil and the nature of sin. It's about what responsibilities people have to one another and the gods. Can a mortal become a god or is that blasphemy? Can sins be pardoned by buying indulgences? Does free will exist? Do the gods prefer animal sacrifices or is that a savage practice the gods abhor? Is a god the same person as their avatar or are avatars separate, created beings with goals and personalities of their own? Can angels fall? Are devils descended from fallen angels or are they a separate creation? Are demons divine accidents or do they predate the gods? How many hollyphants can dance on the head of a pin?

    Broadly speaking, you can plug in any group of gods and the religion will be pretty much the same. I mean, obviously a pantheon of twelve evil gods will be different from a pantheon of twelve good gods, but a group of people who revere Wee Jas as the patron of magic isn't going to be terribly different from a group of people who revere Boccob as the patron of magic unless there are a lot of other things about them that are different.

    Probably almost everyone acknowledges as many gods as possible, just to be safe, but some gods are going to be more important than others and some may disagree on whether two gods (for example, Bleredd and Fortubo) are masks of the same god. For simplicity, I prefer giving a given church twelve or so major deities that they consider to be the most important. The LGG's lists of which deities are most popular in a given nation are a good start.

    Previous thread contrasting Suel and Oeridian religious traditions.
    A thread on religion that Flint started.
    An article on religion by me.

    Oh, to answer your question, yes, the Aerdi houses have patrons.

    Naelax: Hextor
    Cranden: Heironeous
    Garasteth: Pholtus
    Darmen: Zilchus

    I'm not sure about Rax or Torquann, honestly.
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    Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:18 pm  

    Thanks for the thoughts Rasgon.

    As the previous thread I started that you link to above suggests, I still have issues with a variety of competing religions in a more gritty GH. I can visualise a cohesive church that honours several gods but the place of each of the many religions in society is something I struggle with.
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    Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:36 am  

    Flint wrote:
    I can visualise a cohesive church that honours several gods but the place of each of the many religions in society is something I struggle with.


    A single church for the whole Flanaess?
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    Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:54 am  

    The biggest I can see (and kind of the way I visualize it for my campaign) is a single church that existed for the Great Kingdom, something like the a mash-up of the Catholic Church and the state religion of Rome, where as the Church developed and the Great Kingdom grew, more gods were added, some deleted, some promoted, some demoted. That would have covered a good deal of the Flanaess. In provinces of the imperial GK, some local gods were such a big part of the culture that they remained the focus and were co-opted with a wink and a nod, with the imperial cults tacked for official purposes, eventually making some inroads with some of the native upper classes. In other places, revelatory religious movements centered around one god caught fire with the local population and eclipsed the old cults and gods. As the GK's empire broke down, things began to change more drastically, with the imperial Church being torn by official schisms, and rebellious provinces no longer accepting the authority of the Holy Censor. In other places, though there was no longer political cohesion and sometimes actual hostility, the Holy Censor remained a revered figure, and had to perform a cautious balancing act between the Overking and his flock in the rebellious former provinces.
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    Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:42 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Flint wrote:
    I can visualise a cohesive church that honours several gods but the place of each of the many religions in society is something I struggle with.


    A single church for the whole Flanaess?


    Not necessarily but a relatively cohesive church in traditional feudal kingdoms, or at least the former Aerdy lands as Smillan sets out above. The Baklunish have their own religion as would the Flan (the Old Faith). Not sure what I would do with the Thillonrian barbarians but I think the three main traditions could be developed quite easily without overly damaging GH canon.
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    Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:24 pm  

    That's basically my take on it. The Great Kingdom once enforced a single state church, but when Nyrond became independent the faith split; Nyrond's church was then centered in the Prelacy of Almor before that land's desolation.

    If you wanted an exact parallel of Westeros's deities:

    The Old Gods = The Old Faith
    The Father = Zilchus
    The Mother = Sotillion
    The Virgin = Atroa
    The Crone = Wenta
    The Smith = Bleredd
    The Warrior = Hextor (Heironeous in Nyrond/Almor)
    The Stranger = Nerull (or Celestian?)
    The Red God = Pholtus
    The Drowned God = Procan
    The Storm God = Velnius

    Nerull's cult is important in Ivid the Undying and elsewhere, so it might make sense to make Nerull part of the Seven. On the other hand, you could lump him in with the Old Faith instead and just have some evil, subversive Old Faith cultists do all the things the Nerull cultists do. In the official Aerdi church, you could replace Nerull with Celestian as the mysterious god who escorts souls across the Astral Plane to their final destination. Or you could use Telchur, I suppose, if you wanted to emphasize the other wind gods' seasonal aspects. You could fuse Telchur and Nerull together as a single god of winter and death.

    The Flan gods could all be part of the Old Faith, and other important deities like Trithereon, St. Cuthbert, and Fharlanghn could be thought of as lesser gods, recognized but not major figures in the church pantheon.

    Scott Lynch's Gentlemen Bastards series (The Lies of Locke Lamora, Red Seas Under Red Skies, and The Republic of Thieves) includes a fantasy pantheon known as the Twelve. The interesting thing about it was there was also a god known as the Nameless Thirteenth worshiped only by thieves. To others, the idea of a thirteenth god in the pantheon was a heresy, but thieves believed him to be their special pantheon, equal to the others but existing in secret. I thought that'd be a good approach for the faithful of Kurell.
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    Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:35 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    They do show a Johann's End, which -- according to an article by Gary Holian -- is/was the first "town" liberated by the forces of Keoland and was used as a headquarters by Keolandish forces for the retaking of the rest of the Earldom.


    Which article is that?
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    Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:38 pm  

    Kirt wrote:
    Which article is that?


    The Kingdom of Keoland, by Gary Holian, in the Living Greyhawk Journal, back in 2000.

    You reference a project I was working on -- with Gary -- back in 2013. So I don't remember exactly which issue that was. I'd have to go looking for it. Sorry.

    Edit: I went looking . . . just for you. Living Greyhawk Journal #001. That's the second issue. The first issue was #000. What can I say? Holian and Mona. Laughing
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    Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:37 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Kirt wrote:
    Which article is that?


    The Kingdom of Keoland, by Gary Holian, in the Living Greyhawk Journal, back in 2000.


    That article was my initial guess - but I checked it, did a search for "Johann" and "End" and didn't find either, which is why I asked.

    Since you affirmed that it was this one, I just re-read the entirety of section (8) - The County of Flen - and still didn't find it. The map at the end shows Keoland's border as extending no further west than Godakin Keep - Johann's End would be off the map and not in Keoland. I did a text search on "retaking" and "liberate" and got nothing.

    I really can't find the reference about Johann's End in this article.
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    Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:50 pm  

    Kirt wrote:
    That article was my initial guess - but I checked it, did a search for "Johann" and "End" and didn't find either, which is why I asked.


    It's possible that I mixed up the articles. I'll go back a double check my notes.

    (Gary got involved with "life" and the project got "filed," if you know what I mean.)
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