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Vampires & Editions
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SirXaris
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Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DLG, I'm not sure I follow the last part of your post.

Are you saying that super-vampires, like Vlad or Drelnza, should have DR infinite/-? In other words, they are completely immune to weapon damage of any quality?

In that case, I would suggest maybe DR 20/epic (= +6 or better magical weapon) as a more reasonable approach.

SirXaris
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Dark_Lord_Galen
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Joined: Sep 07, 2011
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Location: Houston Texas

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirXaris wrote:
DLG, I'm not sure I follow the last part of your post.

Are you saying that super-vampires, like Vlad or Drelnza, should have DR infinite/-? In other words, they are completely immune to weapon damage of any quality?

In that case, I would suggest maybe DR 20/epic (= +6 or better magical weapon) as a more reasonable approach.

SirXaris

LOL my friend as Lanthorn would say, you have 3.5 on the brain.... lol
Laughing Wink
I was being a bit satiricly facetious suggesting that some creatures may return to their 1e/2e roots. (where they would, depending on the creature of course, have those possible immunities)
Though yours, is the more where the road meets the rubber, as to how to manage it in a 3.5e world.. and for that I give thanks my friend.
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SirXaris
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for setting me straight, there, DLG. Razz

SirXaris
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Cebrion
Black Hand of Oblivion
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regardless of whether the simple idea that vampires can be hurt by massive damage in 3.5E, vampires are so utterly more dangerous that ever before. They have Skills, access to Feats, better chances to hit due to the 3.5E Strength ratings, and have comparatively more hit points due to d12 HD and Charisma bonuses which act as Constitution bonuses for h.p., and they can regenerate 5 hit points per round. That more than mitigates the fact that anybody with the incorrect weapon teeing off on them will really only be scratching them, with any secondary attacks against the vampire being made at a cumulative -5 penalty (because that is how multiple attacks from level advancement works in 3.5E). So the vampire is less likely to even be hit by attacks beyond the first. The whole 3.5 system needs to be taken into account before judging just one aspect of it and "going off the deep end". Wink

Trust me. What you will have to be careful of in converting any special vampires over to 3.5E is keeping your vampires from the TPK. I ran Strahd using 3 .5E rules, and let's just say that Strahd 1E/2E is the kobold to Strahd 3.5E's ogre. The PCs got ripped a new one by him, and took him down only by using spells, getting lucky, and having a rare sun sword (which turned out to be a major factor). Even worse than Strahd would be Sekatha. Fortunately my players killed him off in 2E form (where he was very dangerous) before we switched to 3.5E rules (where he would be so powerful that I would have to bump up the PC levels by 2 or so before they could take him on and have a chance of surviving).
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Dark_Lord_Galen
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cebrion wrote:
with any secondary attacks against the vampire being made at a cumulative -5 penalty (because that is how multiple attacks from level advancement works in 3.5E).

Are you saying that the DR is cumulative or that there is an addition of -5 for the second attack? Meaning -10+-5=-15 I don't see this in the DR guidelines.

Cebrion wrote:
So the vampire is less likely to even be hit by attacks beyond the first. The whole 3.5 system needs to be taken into account before judging just one aspect of it and "going off the deep end". Wink

Point Taken, and that is true.

Lastly vamps was just the first monster class I actually noticed a change in the requirements to hit. Seems most creatures just got an add of the DR to their repore.
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SirXaris
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
Cebrion wrote:
with any secondary attacks against the vampire being made at a cumulative -5 penalty (because that is how multiple attacks from level advancement works in 3.5E).

Are you saying that the DR is cumulative or that there is an addition of -5 for the second attack? Meaning -10+-5=-15 I don't see this in the DR guidelines.


The cumulative -5 penalty applies to each Attack (To Hit) roll a PC makes in a round after the first. It has nothing to do with the creature's DR.

SirXaris
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Cebrion
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right. 1e and 2e are the era of multiple attacks hitting at the same chance. 3.5E is not. At least the initial attacks usually have a better chance to hit than they did before, but AC doesn't go up accordingly to help out. Now, exactly who does that benefit- the ones who are hitting for damage, or the ones who are doing damage and sucking life levels? Wink

Oh, I also wrote up a certain female vampire of the Greyhawk persuasion a while back. Throwing a 3.5 version of her at the suggested character numbers/levels would be, to put it bluntly, criminal. Her stats are Str: 22, Dex: 22, Int: 17, Wis: 16, Cha: 22, and she has 13d12 + 65 h.p. Her A.C. is also 8 better and she has 12 Feats (don't forget about those Monstrous "undead only" Feats in the Libris Mortis!). Shocked Of course most things in 3.5E are far nastier than they are in 1E/2E, including the PCs to some degree, but I still wouldn't recommend letting any character of less than 8th level go through the adventure featuring her (and things are looking pretty grim for even 8th level characters).

I do believe that is the hint of a smile forming on her lips as she drops down in the midst of the PCs with closed fist raised menacingly. Here comes the Whirlwind Attack at + AWESOME!!! to hit! Now, let's see how many characters lost hit points and levels from a single dice roll. Evil Grin Laughing

I simply urge caution. Before you throw a 3.5E Vampire at the PCs, let alone one like her, you'd best test play one just to see how nasty they really are in 3.5E. "DR/Magic and Silver" plus "Regeneration 5" is really, really good.
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Last edited by Cebrion on Fri May 03, 2013 3:21 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Dark_Lord_Galen
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirXaris wrote:

The cumulative -5 penalty applies to each Attack (To Hit) roll a PC makes in a round after the first. It has nothing to do with the creature's DR.

SirXaris

Right Right,,,, Had DR on the brain Embarassed as Big C was also reminding ... think whole big picture.
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Armitage
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Joined: May 30, 2004
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cebrion wrote:
I do believe that is the hint of a smile forming on her lips as she drops down in the midst of the PCs with closed fist raised menacingly. Here comes the Whirlwind Attack at + AWESOME!!! to hit! Now, let's see how many characters lost hit points and levels from a single dice roll.


Since the Whirlwind Attack wouldn't happen until the round after she dropped into their midst, they might get some hits in first.
Whirlwind Attack requires a full attack action, so the only movement you can make that round is a 5-foot step.
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Cebrion
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course. The first round she will "only" swat you once with her death blade and punch you once with her fist. Then things get much uglier.
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