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    Canonfire :: View topic - Alignment of states in Greyhawk nearest-non-evil to Ahlissa?
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    Alignment of states in Greyhawk nearest-non-evil to Ahlissa?
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: May 03, 2013
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    Fri May 03, 2013 6:43 pm  
    Alignment of states in Greyhawk nearest-non-evil to Ahlissa?

    Hi there, I am playing a character in Ahlissa who is getting... perturbed... by the rampant evilness and corruption around him, and he wants to start traveling to a place that is less absurdly evil than Ahlissa. What are some of the nearest nations / independent cities that aren't freaking lawful evil?

    What about something that never was under the thumb or social influence of the Scarlet Brotherhood?

    Does anyone have any suggestions?

    If it matters, this is a 3.5e game, EDIT: Post-Greyhawk wars.

    EDIT: Also, I have a secondary question for some long term strategic plans, see my replies later in this thread...


    Last edited by Gavinfoxx on Sun May 12, 2013 10:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri May 03, 2013 6:54 pm  

    Well, if your campaign isn't post-Wars, then Ahlissa is still the South Province of the Great Kingdom of Aerdy, and only the Tilvanot Peninsula is under the thumb of the Scarlet Brotherhood. You could cross Relmor Bay to Almor (NG) or Nyrond (LN), or travel south/southwest to any of the Iron League lands: Onnwal (LN), Irongate (LN), Idee (NG), or Sunndi (NG). In a post-Wars campaign, your only options in the immediate area are Nyrond, Irongate, or Sunndi.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri May 03, 2013 7:11 pm  

    Post-wars, Almor gets totally **** up, right? I think it might be some weird hybrid -- IE, Ahlissa is independent, but the Great Kingdom of Aerdy isn't really a great kingdom, it's just a bunch of independent civilizations?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri May 03, 2013 7:44 pm  

    Welcome to the site!

    I wouldn't get too hung up on what is "supposed" to happen, because what is supposed to happen is what the DM decides happens, not what some fans, or even Wizards of the Coast, decides happens (they have bad habit of telling people what happens in their campaigns rather than just telling them about their campaign worlds). Just enjoy the ride. Wink
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Mon May 13, 2013 3:08 am; edited 2 times in total
    GreySage

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    Fri May 03, 2013 8:05 pm  

    Hello Gavinfoxx. Please post in the Welcome to Greyhawk forum and introduce yourself to us all. Wink

    I second Cebrion's advice and agree that DMPrata has listed the nearest goodly-majority nations pre- and post-wars.

    One thing to keep in mind is that most commoners in any land in the Flanaess are True Neutral. The alignment of a nation is generally determined by the policies of the rulers, which are a result of those leaders' personal alignments. So, though Furyondy is listed as LG, that is because its king is a lawful good paladin who enforces laws in a manner that he deems good and just. The majority of the commoners are likely to have a goodly bent, but they are not all Dudley Do-Rights like their king. With a LE leader, like the one Ahlissa has, the laws are oppressive and discriminatory and the commoners, though mostly neutrally-aligned, are likely to have an evil bent and be much less pleasant to deal with than the commoners in a goodly nation like Furyondy.

    So, just because a nation is listed on some map as LG or LE, etc., doesn't mean that everyone (or even the majority) in that nation can be expected to behave as if they were of that alignment.

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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat May 04, 2013 10:20 am  

    Well, for the most part, he's annoyed at the behavior of the powerful folk -- nobility, powerful merchant types, etc. etc.
    GreySage

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    Sat May 04, 2013 12:15 pm  

    Gavinfoxx wrote:
    Well, for the most part, he's annoyed at the behavior of the powerful folk -- nobility, powerful merchant types, etc. etc.


    Sadly, that happens in OUR world called "reality" too! Confused

    -Lanthorn
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    Sat May 04, 2013 5:20 pm  

    Quote:
    One thing to keep in mind is that most commoners in any land in the Flanaess are True Neutral. The alignment of a nation is generally determined by the policies of the rulers, which are a result of those leaders' personal alignments. So, though Furyondy is listed as LG, that is because its king is a lawful good paladin who enforces laws in a manner that he deems good and just. The majority of the commoners are likely to have a goodly bent, but they are not all Dudley Do-Rights like their king. With a LE leader, like the one Ahlissa has, the laws are oppressive and discriminatory and the commoners, though mostly neutrally-aligned, are likely to have an evil bent and be much less pleasant to deal with than the commoners in a goodly nation like Furyondy.


    Carl Sergeant stated that the alignment of Great Kingdom peasants was NE -- Neutral Exhausted.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun May 12, 2013 12:05 am  

    I also generally consider that there are countless lordshios and baronies withing a province like Alhissa, each one of these might have Lords and Barons of alignment that strongly differs from that on the sovereign. I can definitely envision ancient noble families of the Great Kingdom still holding the standards of virtue and righteousness of true nobility.
    I don't have a map handly but I guess Ahlissa is fragmented in various domains each one of them having a smaller fief within and so on, in a typically feudal fashion.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun May 12, 2013 8:07 pm  

    To capture the feel of Great Kingdom and life in it ( or any big monarchy in Greyhawk for this ) - watch the Game of Thrones series / read Songs of Fire and Ice books. It's closest to "realism fantasy" that Greyhawk most times strike to.
    GreySage

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    Sun May 12, 2013 8:57 pm  

    wyrdhamster wrote:
    To capture the feel of Great Kingdom and life in it ( or any big monarchy in Greyhawk for this ) - watch the Game of Thrones series / read Songs of Fire and Ice books. It's closest to "realism fantasy" that Greyhawk most times strike to.


    Ironic you should mention this novel and HBO series, wyrdhamster. Join us on the following, current, and growing thread: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5499&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

    -Lanthorn
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    Sun May 12, 2013 9:35 pm  

    Yea, that sort of medieval realism and all the attendant atrocities isn't really what my character is looking for, hahaha
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun May 12, 2013 10:04 pm  

    Actually, what I really want to know is, "what's the best place to go to get the financial, economic, military, cultural, and other appropriate sponsorship to kick off the magitech/dungeonpunk singularity?"

    IE:

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

    Especially places where good-aligned, radical, high-risk, high-reward, high-change ideas could take place... Ideally cosmopolitan places which attract ideological out there types, like bohemians or similar, who can get their crazy plans FUNDED if they talk to the right person...


    Last edited by Gavinfoxx on Sun May 12, 2013 10:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun May 12, 2013 10:26 pm  

    I may be late to reply, but, if I might add my two cents...

    Ahlissa is a pretty big place - while it may be largely Lawful Evil, governorship across the entire area isn't exactly uniform. Even within Ahlissa proper, the semi-autonomous cities in the northwest administered by the Cranden family tend much closer to neutral or even good alignments. One is even governed by a paladin of Rao. (This area is referred to as "the Western Lands" in Ivid the Undying.)

    The city of Innspa was once a part of Almor; due to defecting to Ahlissa some decades prior to the Greyhawk Wars, they were untouched by Almor's destruction. While Ivid the Undying doesn't exactly cast it as a happy place under Princess Karasin, the Living Greyhawk campaign has it becoming a largely autonomous region in 598 CY (Karasin's death), run by former members of Almor's ecumenical council. They're still nominally part of the Great Kingdom, but the only thing required of them is paying a tithe of "one nightingale" (gold piece?) to Prince Valeran of Garasteth.

    http://www.adri.hoellengeier.de/engmain.html

    Finally, there's also the folk of the Adri Forest, who are probably closer to Chaotic Good than anything else - but most people probably wouldn't count them as citizens of the Great Kingdom (to include the foresters themselves).
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun May 12, 2013 10:54 pm  

    Where might I find the sort of people to do my long term plan? IE, what's a good aligned place where some crazy counterculture type (anyone who has ideas that fit the milieu of 'Romantics, Bohemians, Beats and Hippies', historically) with Big Plans could get funding and support?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun May 12, 2013 11:31 pm  

    Innspa after CY 598 is probably your best bet for that. Many parts of the Great Kingdom already feature magical devices - cannons that fire lightning bolts, chairs that massage anyone sitting in them, dishes that carve your meat for you - but these are largely reserved for the rich and the highborn. Innspa has an extremely cosmopolitan feel (having been part of the Great Kingdom, Nyrond, Almor, and Ahlissa at different points in history), and the benevolent hands-off approach of Prince Valeran to the city would probably allow great leeway in your character's actions (as long as they weren't inciting violence or otherwise trying to completely upend things).

    Alternately, the Solnor Compact cities along the east coast are also flush with magic, and also have a very strong cosmopolitan feel, in no small part due to their proximity to the sea (though their populations also include foreigners from places nowhere near the coast). The administrators for these cities are Lawful Evil (one of them, Lord Drax, is an animus fighter/wizard who keeps a fiend sage in his employ), but I'd say these cities lean more towards lawful than evil.

    Attir (in the Northern Province) doesn't see quite as much sea traffic, but is more chaotic in flavor. (Procan's faith is strongest there.)

    If you want to go full Bohemian/cosmopolitan, Dyvers is pretty much Amsterdam set in Oerth. This would take you out of the Great Kingdom completely, but you'd still be in the heart of the civilized world - the cities of Greyhawk and Hardby are just down the river from them, and Furyondy is across the river. (Depending on what wild ideas your PCs want to advocate, I might even suggest Hardby, though that place is somewhat lawful in bent.)
    GreySage

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    Mon May 13, 2013 7:10 am  

    Gavinfoxx wrote:
    Actually, what I really want to know is, "what's the best place to go to get the financial, economic, military, cultural, and other appropriate sponsorship to kick off the magitech/dungeonpunk singularity?


    It's not good-aligned, but I'd nominate Hexpools, which seems to me to be the closest thing to Kobold Press's Zobeck. That may just be my interpretation.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon May 13, 2013 11:24 am  

    Azoriel wrote:
    ...Ahlissa is a pretty big place - while it may be largely Lawful Evil, governorship across the entire area isn't exactly uniform. Even within Ahlissa proper, the semi-autonomous cities in the northwest administered by the Cranden family tend much closer to neutral or even good alignments. One is even governed by a paladin of Rao...


    See the Goldbolt thread:

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4104&start=0
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