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    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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    Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:07 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    In Sterich, probably adjacent to the Javan River.


    Thanks, Rasgon. The Paizo maps don't show it, however. They do show a Johann's End, which -- according to an article by Gary Holian -- is/was the first "town" liberated by the forces of Keoland and was used as a headquarters by Keolandish forces for the retaking of the rest of the Earldom.

    South of this, across the Davish River, lies the city of Fitela. Nothing else until the capital of Istivin. Sad

    Now I have to go and search Queen of the Spiders for every scrap of information! Laughing Laughing Laughing


    Edit: Okay, I've read it. As is to be expected, no "exact" location is given. For my work, I'm going to place it within Sterich, on the west bank of the Javan River, with Johann's End as the Viscount's city.

    Another Edit: Well . . . damn! Johann's End no doubt refers to "Big Johann," a Frost Giant the adventurers killed in the town, thus a renaming of the town. Buggar! Mad

    (We really need a "hand in face" emoticon!) Laughing
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    GreySage

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    Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:35 pm  

    I'd add that nobles don't, strictly speaking, need to rule cities. Cities were often free locations outside of the jurisdiction of feudal lords to which serfs fled to escape their bondage. Nobles just need manors where they can live while they collect taxes from the local farms.
    GreySage

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    Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:32 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    I'd add that nobles don't, strictly speaking, need to rule cities.


    An excellent point. I was just "running" with the notion/reality that towns and "cities" usually sprang up around the Lord's castle . . . for protective purposes.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:25 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    MToscan wrote:
    I just read/realized that Against The Gients is set in Sterich and not Geoff, UGH! So any notes you might want to share on noble families of Sterich? Especially noble families of Sterich "at the time ATG" is set? BTW who was the king of Keoland at the time?


    Kimbertos Skotti was Keoland's king in 576 CY. Queen of the Spiders mentions that the Viscount of Javan is subordinate to the Earl of Sterich. The Viscount isn't named because his son is supposed to be one of the PCs' henchmen. The supermodule says that the Viscount of Javan and his two sons have "the royal blood of Keoland in his veins," so they're probably related to Kimbertos Skotti (and House Lizhal), unless this refers to a different royal house.

    The Earl of Sterich at the time was Querchard. His wife, Resbin Dren Emondav, spends little time in Sterich, living in her distant homeland for most of the year. Dungeon #117 says that Sterich is "the hereditary seat of the House of Qualtaine, modest rulers largely content to enjoy the wealth of vast mining operations." The nobles of the House of Qualtaine are descended from Sterich's first earl, Qualtaine of Geoff. Sterich has a reputation for "low nobility" because Qualtaine and his successors avidly granted titles and land to anyone who donated enough money to the earldom's coffers.

    In Dungeon #117, Count Tavisham Barclay is a distant relative of the House of Rhola and heir to one of the noble estates of Sterich (and a werewolf). At the time of the GDQ series, he and his family are living in Keoland (and he is perhaps not yet a werewolf). Still, the Barclay family definitely has noble claims in Sterich.

    One of the first to be granted nobility by the Earl of Sterich were the House of Oester (mentioned in Dungeon #118), distant relatives of the House of Qualtaine. However, their name became synonymous with ill-luck when their manor fell into a sinkhole 350 years ago. They may have all died.


    Dungeon #118 notes Pelman Drudd, a powerful merchant lord of Istivin, who has managed to "reascend" to the Council of Barons. That is confusing because he then has petitioned the Marchioness for a "noble grant." But then this could refer to a grant of land directly from the Marchioness, instead of just the land he's managed to buy, which could possibly confer a higher social-status/more political power on him. The latter is just my theory. It also states that Drudd has been influential in Sterich for decades.

    The map of Istivin in DNG #118 shows an Oliphant House (vacant), as one of the houses on Brink's Hill, which is where the houses of nobles and the well-to-do are located. This could just be the name of the house or there could be an Oliphant family.

    In addition there's the western barony of Astarikan, and one of the richest tracts of farmland in Sterich. It was ruled by Lord Baron Harker Elvenac. Maybe it's referred to in a LG adventure or elsewhere, but by Spring, 591 the Lord Baron was thought to have been deceased (That seemed to be going around in Sterich) and the Marchioness dissolved Astarikan's charter, making it her sovereign property. For some time before that, the Lord Baron's cousins, Etrin Van-Malligan and Varrus Kline were in dispute over who would inherit it. This is all from p. 30 of LGJ #1.

    On p. 30 of LGJ #2 the western town of Ilaren, assumed by me to be in the County of Garinac, is named. I also presumed that the dwarven Prince Durrok Korend, who is intent on re-capturing the nearby dwarven citadel of Num-Theraz, is either the former ruler or heir to that citadel.

    P.30 of LGJ #3 gives Num-Theraz as being inside the borders of the County of Garinac. IMC I made the various dwarven princedoms, semi-independent, owing fealty to the Marquess, but otherwise acting freely. But that's my own thing. It also mentions Lindus Mallaman, ranking priest of Heironeous in Istivin, so you could conflate a house of Mallaman as a family of Sterich nobles from that. I did.
    GreySage

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    Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:14 pm  

    I thought of mentionong him, but my reading was that Drudd is definitely not yet a noble, just a powerful merchant. Note that the council of barons considers him an outsider.; his money has bought him a voice there ( as it had before the invasion) but hasn't made him one of them. I'm pretty sure the noble grant he's looking for would be his first, for all that he has three levels in aristocrat.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:26 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    I thought of mentionong him, but my reading was that Drudd is definitely not yet a noble, just a powerful merchant. Note that the council of barons considers him an outsider.; his money has bought him a voice there ( as it had before the invasion) but hasn't made him one of them. I'm pretty sure the noble grant he's looking for would be his first, for all that he has three levels in aristocrat.


    I'd argue against this interpretation. It says he reestablished himself in Sterich's Council of Barons after the reclamation of Sterich. By my reading, given that he has a history of several decades as a powerful individual in Sterich, that means he was already on the Council, and I don't see non-nobles sitting on the Council of Barons. By his "outsider status" I assume that means he was elevated to the nobility through his financial wheeling and dealing, which would probably lead to the traditional nobility looking down on him as an upstart and outsider. But there's no right or wrong answer here.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:25 am  

    Is there an official take on the House of Belissica of Urnst?
    I know Karll is of House Lorinal, but I can't find info on Belissica.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:56 am  

    Gellor is the ruling house of the County.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:35 am  

    Where do you get the name of the Baronies and Counties of Sterich? I could not find anything on Google on Garinac etc.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:52 am  

    I tried a google search too, and interestingly, the only thing I came up with was some guy with a Wizard's Community site for his campaign. I was hoping he might link to more info, but then spotted a lot of NPC names that I had come up with for my campaign. So, looks like he must be using my Sterich page as source material! Pretty cool! My Sterich campaign lives on, at least in some form. Happy

    As far as canon material, most of what I have is from the Shadows of the Abyss adventures, and the accompanying background article on Istivin. The stuff on the Garinacs, Van Malligans, and Astarikan I got from some of the early Living Greyhawk Journals. I can pull together a brief on this material with quotes and citations if you give me a day or two. I'm pretty sure I still have your email address. If not I'll PM you.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:17 am  

    This topic is goldmine for guys playing in Sterich! Cool So I ask where to find more infro about March and it's nobility outside of Living Greyhawk Gazteer?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:12 pm  

    Lengthy reply, but most everything I have is from the linked adventures Touch of the Abyss (Dungeon # 117), Shadow of the Abyss (Dungeon # 118), and Wrath of the Abyss (Dungeon # 119), and the accompany article in Dungeon # 117, Istivin: City of Shadows. All these issues can be downloaded from Paizo.com, and issues # 117 and 119 are also available as print issues.

    I'll quote the bits from issues 1 and 2 of the Living GH Journal below, since they are kind of hard to find sources, and are just a few paragraphs --

    From Living Greyhawk Journal #1, Dispatches, p. 30 – Spring, 591 CY

    ‘The Marchioness, Resbin Dren Emondav, has declared the western barony of Astarikan her sovereign property, thus dissolving the original charter on the land, held by the thought-deceased Lord Baron Harker Elvenac. The move not only brings to an official end the struggle between the former baron’s antagonistic cousins, Etrin Van Malligan and Varrus Kline, but it also grants one of the richest tracts of farmland in the March of Sterich to the direct control of the Marchioness. Few believe that the feuding cousins will resolve their differences any time soon, but with the goal of their bickering hopelessly out of reach (and in the hands of the sovereign in Krelont Keep) it is hoped that the matter is all but resolved.’

    From Living Greyhawk Journal #2, Dispatches, p. 30 – Spring, 591 CY

    ‘It has been three years since the County of Garinac, on Sterich’s western fringe, was freed from the control of savage humanoids. Since then the dwarven citadel of Num-Theraz, fortified in a deep valley in the Crystalmists, has served as a rallying point for the remnants of the orcs, gnolls and kobolds who once held the entire nation. Prince Durrock Korend has mustered a small army of dwur in the western town of Ilaren for the final push into the mountains. For the first time (after much pressure from dwarves throughout Sterich) the Marchioness has pledged a company of halberdiers to the effort.’

    From Living Greyhawk Journal #2, Dispatches, p. 30 – Spring, 591 CY

    ‘Tragedy has befallen Lindus Mallaman, Istivin’s ranking priest of Heironeous. Mallaman, a leading figure in the city’s religious community and perhaps the strongest proponent of the so-called Purifier faction (influential citizens who believe the city to have changed in some fundamentally evil way during the occupation) was discovered hanging by his feet from the basalt statue of the Valorous Knight, his hands missing and his body scarred by electrical burns, as if charred by several bolts of lightning. As if in mourning, the statue seeped blood from its wrists for three days thereafter.
    Dwur Prince Durrock Korend’s bid to oust the savage humanoids infesting the conquered dwarven citadel of Num-Theraz, on the Crystalmist border in County Garinac fares poorly. Though the dwarves under his banner fought bravely in the opening assault, the human halberdiers provided by the Marchioness folded quickly in battle against a nearly endless stream of orcs and gnolls. Korend has put out a call to his dwur brethren in nearby states, but has yet to appreciate sizeable reinforcements.’
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:52 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Lengthy reply, but most everything I have is from the linked adventures Touch of the Abyss (Dungeon # 117), Shadow of the Abyss (Dungeon # 118), and Wrath of the Abyss (Dungeon # 119), and the accompany article in Dungeon # 117, Istivin: City of Shadows. All these issues can be downloaded from Paizo.com, and issues # 117 and 119 are also available as print issues.


    Will see - good adventures are always in price. Wink

    smillan_31 wrote:
    From Living Greyhawk Journal #2, Dispatches, p. 30 – Spring, 591 CY

    ‘It has been three years since the County of Garinac, on Sterich’s western fringe, was freed from the control of savage humanoids. Since then the dwarven citadel of Num-Theraz, fortified in a deep valley in the Crystalmists, has served as a rallying point for the remnants of the orcs, gnolls and kobolds who once held the entire nation. Prince Durrock Korend has mustered a small army of dwur in the western town of Ilaren for the final push into the mountains. For the first time (after much pressure from dwarves throughout Sterich) the Marchioness has pledged a company of halberdiers to the effort.’


    Maybe use this in my campaign, as my player is playing the dwarf from Sterich that has lived the massacre of his clan and citadel. Evil Grin Bonus question: Num-Theraz was mountain dwarves, not hill dwarves citadel?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:20 am  

    Does anybody have the names of the olven houses of Celene? What's Yolande's house? I know she has two cousins but one is a Brightflame and the other (can't remember) could be of the same house?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue May 21, 2013 1:06 am  

    Any ideas for Ser Kargoth of Mansbridge's noble house?
    GreySage

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    Tue May 21, 2013 3:36 am  

    Kargoth belonged to House Torquann.

    Ren o' the Star's description in Greyhawk Adventures mentioned a noble house of Celene that his elven father belonged to.
    GreySage

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    Tue May 21, 2013 6:37 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Ren o' the Star's description in Greyhawk Adventures mentioned a noble house of Celene that his elven father belonged to.


    This is the House of Paraleen. Ren's last name is Fitzparaleen, because he's (being a half-elf) not recognized as a legitimate heir.

    Yolande may belong to the House of Bellmeadow.
    GreySage

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    Tue May 21, 2013 7:27 pm  

    The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer refers to Yolande as "Yolande of Bellmeadow." If that's not a place name, it might be her house.

    There's some thin evidence for the existence of a House of Koehlanna in Celene. The Complete Book of Elves tells of a legendary elven prince called Drawmij Koehlanna. Living Greyhawk Journal #0 says that the Drawmij we know, Drawmij of the Circle of Eight, has connections to Celene. "The mage speaks of contacts within the realm of Celene... Whether for reasons of politics or something more sinister, however, few in Enstad admit to any sort of connection with the man." So perhaps our Drawmij was named for a legendary Celenese figure. That's not really firm ground for drawing conclusions, though. Even if Drawmij Koehlanna was Celenese, his house might not exist anymore.

    Paraleen sounds a bit like Peralay, the renamed Melf figure from the D&D toy line. Maybe Melf is Ren o' the Star's father? Or even his half-brother. But I think it's more likely that Melf belongs to a House of Brightflame.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat May 25, 2013 3:14 pm  

    I'm working my way though the LG stuff and there are tons of notes on noble houses both major and minor.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu May 30, 2013 8:58 am  

    I know it might be obvious but Belvor III's House was Rax-Nyrond or Just Nyrond? A friend of mine who is of noble descent told me minor houses sometimes ask to join by name houses of higher prestige therefore the subsequent name is Minorhouse-Majorhouse but that doesn't mean necessarily the houses become one and the same, for example we have several Savoias from secondary branches in Italian nobility, but Savoias are still the ruling house.
    Any thoughts?
    Maybe the nomeclature is inverted and the minor house of Nyrond joined House Rax?
    We could have
    House Rax (extincyt) and House Rax Nyrond or
    House Nyrond and House Rax-Nyrond (which is the extinct one)
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri May 31, 2013 6:43 am  

    The house of Nyrond was a junior branch of the house of Rax at the time of Nyrond's (the country) rebellion, and were "openly contempt(uous)" of their Rax cousins, although I don't know if it's ever stated what house Medven I, first King of Nyrond was from.

    EDIT: Sorry, just realized you said Belvor III. I don't believe anyone has ever determined if it was a branch of one of the Celestial Houses that spawned the royal house of Furyondy.
    GreySage

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    Fri May 31, 2013 12:47 pm  

    I've been calling Belvor III's house the House of Fairwain, but yeah, really we don't know. Since the House of Rax is supposed to be mostly extinct, though, he probably isn't part of it. Furyondy's royal family might be Darmen or Cranden, for all we know.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri May 31, 2013 1:01 pm  

    Another question on the Coat of Arms.
    Any idea on how to contempate the complete change of the coa of the Principality of Ulek over time?

    After
    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/heraldry/images/Principality_Ulek.gif

    Before
    http://www.oocities.org/timessquare/lair/8572/pulek.gif

    I'd guess one of the two is the Coat of Arms of House Corond.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri May 31, 2013 1:16 pm  

    One thing we do know is that Viceroy of Ferrond was not at first a hereditary position, but then the same could have been true of Nyrond, which eventually came under a cadet branch of Rax. If Furyondy did come under the rulership of a Celestial House, it could have followed the same model as Nyrond and taken the name of the Viceroyalty as its house name, so it could have been Ferrond. But that wraps things up a little too neatly for me.
    GreySage

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    Fri May 31, 2013 2:27 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    One thing we do know is that Viceroy of Ferrond was not at first a hereditary position.


    Do we know that? The viceroys surely served at the Overking's pleasure, but I don't see anything that says that the office didn't normally pass from father to son (or daughter). I don't see any difference, from an administrative point of view, between the Viceroyalty of Ferrond and the three other Viceroyalties. Nyrond, South Province, and North Province were each awarded to Celestial Houses, so it makes sense that Ferrond would have been, too.

    Granted, there was an interruption in the case of North Province, which was initially given to House Naelax but which was given instead to House Atirr between 134-223 CY. And rule of Zelradton eventually passed to House Naelax-Selor (a junior branch of House Naelax) and then to House Naelax (Reydrich's house) just prior to the Great Kingdom's dissolution. But it seems to have been otherwise hereditary.

    Living Greyhawk Gazetteer wrote:
    The Great Kingdom was quickly becoming too vast to effectively control from Rauxes, so the overkings appointed viceroys to rule the major provinces. The viceroys had near total autonomy within their realms to efficiently deal with local problems, answering only to the Malachite Throne. By 100 CY, there were four such viceroys. One in Zelradton administered South Province (awarded to House Cranden), and a counterpart in Eastfair controlled North Province (awarded to House Naelax). The empire’s borders had by now reached all the way to the Fals Gap and the mountainous Quaglands. Manshen, the first Rax overking, divided these marklands in 100 CY, forming two vast provinces around the Nyr Dyv, one in the east and one in the west. The Viceroyalty of Nyrond, which eventually included Urnst, was ruled from Rel Mord by a junior branch of House Rax. A viceroy in Dyvers administered the Viceroyalty of Ferrond, including its Northern Reaches (now Perrenland and lands north and northeast of the Vesve Forest).


    Ferrond is, strangely, the only viceroyalty that isn't explicitly given to a house. Perhaps it should be Darmen or Torquann by process of elimination, though there may well have been another minor Aerdi house, otherwise unattested to, that won Ferrond.

    Regardless, it seems that some of Furyondy's noble families are Aerdi in origin, while some, oddly given Furyondy's low Flan population and the general disrespect the Oeridians seem to have given them, seem to have been originally Flan.

    Living Greyhawk Gazetteer wrote:
    The viceroy ruled fairly from Dyvers, where he was attended by scores of noble families culled from the Great Kingdom, as well as ennobled Flan who served Aerdy.


    Perhaps the Flan nobles were mostly from the Quaglands and the northern reaches. Of course, regard for the Flan was likely higher in Voll, where the Flannish faith of Rao had been adopted.

    Smillan_31 wrote:
    If Furyondy did come under the rulership of a Celestial House, it could have followed the same model as Nyrond and taken the name of the Viceroyalty as its house name


    Do you think that House Nyrond is simply named after the province? What, then, was the name of the ruling house of Nyrond before the Battle of a Fortnight's Length? My assumption was that the existing royal house was permitted to continue to exist after the Aerdi conquest in exchange for becoming a junior branch of the House of Rax, a Nyrond princess marrying a lesser Rax prince and their son designated heir to the viceroyalty.
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