With the Greyhawk Wars at an end, most countries are trying to stabilize and rebuild themselves. One of the interesting things I've come to appreciate is that there are a few kingdoms that really haven't had to bare the brunt of the wars, unlike the Shield Lands, Furyondy, Nyrond, etc. As most countires are, as stated earlier, trying to rebuild, what are the other countries doing?
What is the relationship between Keoland and its neighbors? The Yeomanry seems unscathed and should be making a tidy profit in trade. There is the refugee problem from the Hold of the Sea Princes, but just how bad is that? I'm sure that the Yeomanry can now use this exodus as a source of cheap labor. What is Ulek, Urnst and the Gran March doing? Nyrond lost 70,000 troops in the Greyhawk Wars, but what about the other kingdoms?
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm trying to get my PC's to realize that war has a terrible effect on trade, industry, knowledge, pride, law, etc. They are starting in the insulated Yeomanry, but once they cross over into Keoland or the Hold of the Sea Princes, they will experience inflation, disease, fear and general unpleasantness the Greyhawk Wars have to offer. If they go to the Hold of the Sea Princes, they will be faced whether or not they can/should help travelling strangers. Once they hit Keoland, prices will shoot up about 20%-40% of what is in the PHB (right now, silver is the common currency where they are at, so using gold should really shock them).
I leave the exact figures to the various triads or posters better equipped then me.
However perhaps I can give you my opinion on your foreign policy questions:
Keoland
Emerged from the war with an PR black eye, many nation in the west view Keoland responsible for the loss of Sterich and Geoff due to the Lion throne using the Giant invasion for politics. However due to its military and economic power retaliation is very unlikely but relations with its neighbors remain cold. The SB southern threat is of great concern as is the chaos of the Hold and the recent military operations.
Yeomanry
Although unconquered during the wars, the province was damaged and recalled most of its units however now that the Giant threat has receeded the Yeomanry seems poised to prosper due to its material and military resources.
Gran March
Emerged due to a large number of refugees (Keoland resentment), martial philosophy and weakened Bissel on the northern border as a local military powerhouse which seeks to influence bissel policy. Ignore the Gran March ambassador at your peril.
Ulek States (Principality still at war)
The County and Duchy have become the "ecomonic backers" of the west supplying funds and goods to rebuilding nations so they can recover, primarily the Principality and Furyondy. This role has increased their prestige and influence assuring they are carefully listened to in foreign courts.
Urnst States
The County and Duchy have become the "ecomonic backers" in the east supplying funds and goods to rebuilding nations so they can recover, primarily Nyrond. This role has increased their prestige and influence assuring they are carefully listened to in foreign courts.
The Yeomanry: Profit, profit, and more profit. The nations that suffered more damage during the Wars are likely to be desperate for Yeomanry goods, so the yeomen can line their pockets by squeezing the war refugees for whatever they're desperate enough to pay. The yeomen can also use this opportunity to improve their standing both politically and economically in the Sheldomar.
Raids on Keoland or the recovering Sterich might also be a possibility, or even an invasion of southern Keoland or the whole of Sterich. While this might not seem advisable given Keoland's military power, the Keoish record in war is pretty pathetic-Keoland hasn't won a war since it beat out the Flan for control of the Sheldomar Valley during the Great Migrations.
The Urnst States:Again, both nations will be concerned with using their newfound wealth and influence. However, the County will also be actively trying to help Nyrond get back on its feet. This not only has to do with compassion (though that is a very real part of it for the County's citizens), but a militarily powerful Nyrond is also needed to defend against any invasion by Iuz, the Pale, the Horned Empire, or whoever else. Were the situations reversed, Nyrond would be entertaining ideas of invasion; but the County citizens are more likely to simply get their neighbor back on its feet.
The Duchy, however, is a different story. The heavy debts owed by Nyrond are the perfect sword to hang over King Lynwerd's head, as are raids and even a possible annexation of western Nyrond by the duchy's forces. That can be used to "persuade" Nyrond to do what the duchy wants. The military and economic fortunes of both countries are now reversed; many Urnstmen of the Duchy would love to settle some old scores with their "allies" to the east. Slavery is illegal in the duchy, but that doesn't mean that the Urnstmen can't end up controlling a major part of Nyrond's economy...
Keoland: King Skotti has suffered a tremendous loss of face over his military and political blunders since 585 CY. Now, in 591, Skotti is in the unusual position of having both his nobles angry at him (for wanting to compromise with Geoff and Sterich) and his common citizens outraged (for failing to help Keoland's beleaguered brethren to the west). He's likely trying to rebuild the damage to his image, his economy, and his foreign relations, even as Lashton continues to be a thorn in the king's side. Any annexation of the Sea Princes or the western provinces (still advocated by many Keoish nobles) would probably cause a full-blown political crisis, not only because of Keoland's ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in the time of war, but because of King Skotti's own waffling. _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
Gran March is considered a local powerhouse. And considers itself as such. It is perceiving itself for maybe the first time as an independant nation, though it still has feudal oaths to the Keoish Throne. Keoland is likely to remember this if their fortunes get any worse, as Gran March is generally counted by the Keoish Throne (I believe, at least) as among their armies, and can be called to arms by the King.
Many would argue that of all the "Good" nations in the Flaness, Gran March was the one whose fortunes improved the most during the troubles. As their star rises, almost everyone around them is stagnated or declining. Bissell and Ket both are in Chaos, with Gran March troops holding ground beyond their borders. THe Gyri are in turmoil, and almost totally dependant upon Gran March (though I like the LG twist, where the Duke of Geoff has married one of the Daughters of the King Scotti )
Their only other borders are with particularly stable countries - Keoland and The Duchy of Ulek. The Lortmils were pacified 100 years ago. Their population has increased with the refugees, who have integrated well. The society is both Lawful and Martial, and the systems seem to work. Corruption is at a minimum. For the moment (at least IMC) Gran March is in many ways the Shining Star of the Flaness.
However, there is trouble beneath the pretty surface. The Armies of Gran March are distributed far and wide, from the Pomarj to the Hold of the Sea Princes, to Bissell and (I believe) to Furyondy. The Gyri are not happy about Hochoch and its de facto annexation, and their leader the duke is making alliances that may cause trouble in the future. The Dim Forest continues to be a menace, and that has only grown due to the loss of Geoff. And let us not forget the Giants, as they have definately not forgotten Gran March. Disturbingly (IMC, and in LG) they seem to be creating a somewhat organized state, and creating roads. Finally, the Baklunish are still a menace, even though there has been a reduction in tension.
Internally, there is concern that the Keoish will get involved more with Geoff, and through feudal oaths, push the March into a total committment toward retaking the Duchy. They also do not want to get drawn in against the SB, Turosh Mak, Ket, or Iuz. If all or several of these events were to occur, they could well find themselves a military power without a military.
Keoland has won several wars since its founding. And the first was not against the Flan for control of the Sheldomar Valley, but against other Suel Houses that had already beaten the Flan for control of the Sheldomar Valley. These additional wars include two against false Vecnas, multiple wars against Toli before it was finally conquered, the clearing of the Pomarj, and the liberation of Bissel from the Brazen Horde. They also include the initial campaigns that took Ket and half of Veluna. In Ket it was the peace that was lost. The conquered parts of Veluna were only lost after a subsequent war that should never have been provoked.
Also, Keoland doesn't technically have feudal oaths. They have oaths of acceptance of the Charter of Niole Dra, which the King receives as Regent for Life. But except for the people of his home province, no one is really a feudal vassal of the King. It just looks like they are.
Keoland has won several wars since its founding. And the first was not against the Flan for control of the Sheldomar Valley, but against other Suel Houses that had already beaten the Flan for control of the Sheldomar Valley. These additional wars include two against false Vecnas, multiple wars against Toli before it was finally conquered, the clearing of the Pomarj, and the liberation of Bissel from the Brazen Horde. They also include the initial campaigns that took Ket and half of Veluna. In Ket it was the peace that was lost. The conquered parts of Veluna were only lost after a subsequent war that should never have been provoked.
What are the sources for some of these citations, namely the false Vecnas and Toli? All my citations come from the LGG:
-Geoff: Keoland gets humiliated at the Battle of Gorna, and Tavish III gets egg all over his face. Geoff gets a black mark for using dark magic in the battle. Perhaps this is a motivation for Count Granus of Pregmere's rebellion. Most Geoffites wouldn't tolerate that sort of dark magic being cast by their leaders. Too many bad memories of Ur-Flan magic. Of course, even a goodly place like Geoff has one or two skeletons in its closet relating to this incident...
The Sea Princes: Pirates are not known for their military skill. Despite this, they still managed to beat the Keoish for control of what would become the Hold of the Sea Princes. Tavish III's military incompetence is confirmed at the Siege of Westkeep. Keoland does get some credit for winning the Battle of Jetsom Island, but that only ended overt hostilities between the two countries.
Ket: Ket was originally dominated by the Brazen Horde. Keoland did manage to beat them, but the indigenous Kettites won their independence by clobbering the Keoish and kicking the infidels out of their homeland. Ket gains its true independence at Keoland's expense.
Furyondy: Keoland is not plagued with nearly as much political infighting as Furyondy, but Furyondy's king and nobles showed remarkable solidarity in pummeling Keoland in the Short War and rescuing Veluna. As a bonus, Furyondy acquires the March of Bissel.
The County and Duchy of Ulek: It's a sorry state of affairs when you lose to the County and Duchy of Ulek. The Duchy and County of Ulek (as opposed to the Principality) have two of the most pathetic military machines in the Flanaess. Celene and the Principality did most of the fighting in the Hateful Wars; the County and Duchy were the ones that kept the soldiers going with food, medical treatment, and so forth. For Keoland, this has to be the most humiliating defeat in its history.
The Greyhawk Wars (canon version): Geoff and Sterich are getting annihilated by giants without Keoish aid. With Keoish aid, they lose their lands entirely. A victory over the Scarlet Brotherhood invasion of Gradsul is staggering, and the re-taking of Sterich is at most a team effort, with the Sterish probably doing the heaviest fighting, just as the Principality of Ulek did a lot of the hard fighting in the Pomarj. _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
My sources for most are the LGG. Apparently you just didn't read it as well as you thought.
First, read the history of the settling of the Sheldomar. It is clear that the only people the Rhola and Neheli fought were either each other, the Oeridians, or Suel who were already there. The Flan had already been beaten.
Second, in order for the Pomarj to leave, it had to have been conquered at one time. Checking the LGG shows it ws taken by Keoland with the Principality of Ulek.
Third, the Hold of the Sea Princes was likewise taken at a certain point in time, after the Pomarj as it happens, by Tavish the Great. This was effectively the last war with Toli, who were more of what I've named Firstcomer Suel in the Sheldomar.
Fourth, the Brazen Horde had overrun the Fals Gap region. Once more, Tavish the Great drove them out of those lands.
Fifth, while you may wish to deny it was relevant, Ket was conquered. To have been lost subsequently, like the Pomarj, it must by necessity, have been conquered at one point.
Sixth, check the reference to the Treaty of Devarnish. Once again, a war was fought and land was taken, though again only to be subsequently lost.
So -
Pomarj 295-461 166 years
Hold of the Sea Prince 306-446 140 years
Bissel 304-438 134 years
Veluna (partial) 360-430 70 years
Ket 360-400 40 years
As to some other points, apparently you haven't cross-checked notes. At the time of the Short War, Keoland was also dealing with the County and Duchy of Ulek and Geoff refusing to send support, the Yeomanry was still trying to become indepedent, and the Sea Prince was building support and beginning his raids against Keoland. That sure seems like a heck of a lot of internal trouble to me.
Further checking reveals that the conflict with Geoff happened right after the Sea Prince took Toli and Monmurg.
Yet more checking reveals that the loss in Geoff was due to the actions of a single archmage unleashing a rather excessive and horrific curse.
And yet more checking will reveal that Keoland didn't actually fight a war with the Uleks. They simply didn't stop them from leaving.
Now granted, Keoland has for the most part expanded peacefully. Such peaceful expansion including Sterich, the Yeomanry, Geoff, and the Uleks, with the Gran March generally appearing peaceful to a casual reading of the LGG. And granted more, the military victories are generally confined to two Kings. But Keoland is by no means the whipping boy of the Flanaess as you might want to suggest.
And that is all with just a surface reading of the LGG. If you want to refer to certain intended sub-texts that I've discussed and developed with Gary Holian, then the reality of the war with the Sea Prince reveals something distinctly different, said revelation to appear in part 2 of the timeline I've been working on. Likewise the wars with the Toli and the Vecna incidents are already discussed in part 1. Further, the incorporation of the Yeomanry ws nearly through a war of conquest that Keoland would easily have won.
As form the Greyhawk Wars, Sterich, and Geoff, the absurdity of that contrived bit of background is so extreme as to be irrelevant. The retconning needed to make Sterich and Geoff not part of Keoland so that Kimbertos had to negotiate with them before sending aid shows just how contrived the scenario is. And it seems you wish to push that further, asserting that Keoland wasn't the dominant force in liberating Sterich. If you say so, but it is obvious the situation was otherwise.
Likewise with the Hateful Wars. All of the Uleks provided troops, according to their populations.
So Keoland is a very potent military force. It might appear otherwise if you want to selectively read the LGG, or if you fail to cross reference a number of the dates, but the reality is easily seen if you make the effort.
Cool, i didn't realize how the oaths apply to Keoish vassals. Am I correct in naming Gran March a vassal?
Also, I don't think anyone thinks that Keoland is anyones whipping boy, at least not without Keoish consent. However, their reluctance to enter various frays must have raised the question in the minds of several nations. Not seriously, but momentarily. I think most people selected as rulers and ambassadors would decide that Keoland just didnt want to be bothered.
However, as to military might, powerful as Keoland is (possibly the single most powerful kingdom in the Flaness?) it is/was more so when it could assuredly gather all it's commonwealth around it, wouldn't you say?
Again, the concept of vassalage to Keoland isn't really applicable. The King of Keoland isn't a feudal overlord but an elective one. It would be like offering an oath of allegiance to the President of the US. He might stand in to receive your oath of allegiance to the country, but he wouldn't be the subject of one himself.
The Gran March though has always been a bit weird. At first it was just a part of Dorlin, so it was a feudal vassal. Later, although a separate province, the ruler was always a person appointed by the King, so he always swore an oath of allegiance to Keoland, and might have also been a personal feudal vassal of the King from his home province. Finally after the Short War the Commandant became an elective position from among the Barons of the Gran March, making it almost Keoland in miniature. However (isn't there always a "however"?), the Knights of the Watch are still beholdern to the Kingdom of Keoland. And given their power in the Gran March, it often happens that the Commandant is also a Knight of the Watch, and so still has a sworn obligation to Keoland.
As for Keoland's power under Tavish the Great compared to Keoland's power now, indeed there is no real comparison. With all of the nations of the Sheldomar contributing, Keoland gains a huge power jump due to the combined arms forces they can put out. They have specialized heavy, medium, and light cavalry from different countries, as well as heavy, medium, light, pike, pole arm, archers, crossbowen, demi-human specialists, and the NAW (as conceived by Tavish the Great, not the current version under Lashton) all available, and all working together.
A united Sheldomar is a colossus. A divided Sheldomar may be strong individually, but it isn't a Flanaess superpower.
Samwise gave a great synopsis of it's history but I would like to put forward my take of Keoland's complex diplomancy and reasons during the war.
I view Keoland as the England of Greyhawk, stay with me, complex foreign policy.
(3 different status)
Core provinces : Ruled by King and aristocracy.
Vassals : These nations, promise an acknowledged amount of troops, goods and money be sent annually or upon request by the Lion throne.
Commonwealth : These nations have a historic tie with Keoland and unlike the Great Kingdom, Keoland saw the value of friendly neighbors rather than revolt. In these cases the nations, pledged an oath of allegiance and promise of military support. The peaceful means of this greater freedom no doubt helped maintain friendly trade and relations toward the Lion Throne.
The Military Forces of Keoland can also follow the English model:
Keoland does have a small professional army and navy (Keoland standards) which is supplemented by provincial noble units and feudal militia troops but the King can also call on the "commonwealth countries" for support, here's the rub, the amount of troops isn't specified so the various nations send only as many as they want (local circumstances, relations, threat faced, Keoland diplomacy).
The navy is akin to "Elizabethan Navy"
A small royal navy (Keoland standards) and a large independent part time merchant/privateer force that can be "drafted into service in times of national crisis. Which helps explain the "pirate" activity in Jerlea Bay.
Why would Keoland pressure Geoff and Sterich
Keoland Point of View
Giant invasions were nothing new, rampages that did damage but were too chaotic to pose a serious threat, the devastation during the wars was due to the giants uncharacteristic strategy and discipline. Keoland never thought the lands would fall.
The economic markets were slowly shifting northward despite all the assurances of friendship, trade from the western duchies was flowing more and more into the northen markets not south into Keoland which the merchant faction was quick no doubt to point out.
Many of Keoland's "commonwealth" nations sent support and troops north to aid Furyondy but little help came south when Keoland was threatened.
Keoland wasn't trying to "reconnect Geoff and Sterich" they were simply using the giant threat to pressure the western duchies to accept vassal status and trade concessions, which would project Keoland power northward, assure greater trade southward plus guarrantee military support if hostilities broke out along the southern border (remember the murder of our emissary in Geoff).
Given what happened from their view, Keoland has a right to be angry, they play "good guy" to their commonwealth and what did they get in return:
1) Reduced trade
2) Support and troops go north
3) Reduced prestige in the north (no seat offered in thornward dispute)
4) Furyondy hailed as the "Bulwark of the North" but no commonwealth crusade offered to the "Bulwark of the South".
5) Given the troops needed to liberate the western duchies, would have left the south poorly defended, Remember Gradsul.
Core Provinces vs Vassal Provinces
The real problem is the use of terms that are simply obsolete given the development of Keoland. So really, vassal isn't accurate. So while you are correct that the Vassal Provinces are supposed to give certain things, so are the Core Provinces. This ties directly in to,
Military Model
Amount of troops is indeed not mandated. So as you suggest, the King only get the troops from the people who support his current policies. I touched on this in a short essay I wrote to explain it to people for LG that I called "Absolute Power and the Kings of Keoland". And it breaks down as you note, the King has as much power and troops as he can convince people to provide. Unite them like Tavish I, and you conquer three new provinces in 10 years. Offend them like Tavish III, and you lose seven provinces in wars lasting a decade or two.
The Navy
Here you are right, but you miss one critical factor. Because of the area of Keoland's provinces, the navy is pretty much a wholly owned subsidiary of the Rhola family. Sure the Sheldomar is navigable as far north as Niole Dra and the Javan up to Cryllor. None of the cities along the rivers have the docks for building ocean going vessels that Gradsul has, or the private docks at Sanduchar. So when it comes to converting merchant ships to military ships, most of it is the decision of one man, the Duke of Gradsul.
Geoff and Sterich
The main problem is, the '83 set made it clear they had close relations with Keoland, including family connections to Kimbertos. Those suddenly became irrelevant in the GH Wars. The results of their playing a pretty poor wargame were more important than past descriptions.
the economic shifts would be critical. Despite other issues, losing the mines in the mountains around Geoff and Sterich would put a serious crimp on the flow of precious metals into Keoland, and thus the rest of the Sheldomar nations. Everyone would want them recaptured, even if they were less than on the ball to prevent the loss in the first place.
Fascinating reading and speculation. I say speculation only because we have to assume certain points of view. No one was there to actually hear what the nobles thought or listened to them explain what they wanted or hoped for (yes, I know, this is all fantasy and there is no one to listen to). Anyway, I think Samwise hit upon a very interesting point; losing mines. The Yeomanry has mines that are safely under human control. Now granted the gems aren't diamonds or red sapphires,* but they do have gemstones and I believe Keoland is relatively poor in that area. I'm mildly surprised that someone hasn't come up with the idea to invade the Yeomanry, excuse me, secure the Yeomanry
Red Sapphires- Rubies and Sapphires are the same gem, even if they are a different color. They both come from the same gem family of corundum. Rubies have chromium in them which gives them their red color and is a growth inhibitor (it's rare to find a large ruby, but not impossible). I simply thought that was a neat fact and maybe somebody could use it as the basis for an adventure hook.
Dwarf from Nyrond
PS- I find the reading to be an excellent source of mental stimulation. It's interesting to read the different points of view. I love civility.
While the size of deposits isn't noted, checking resources shows that Geoff and Sterich have
1 of 3 sources of copper
2 of 4 sources of silver
2 of 3 sources of electrum
2 of 4 sources of gold
in the Sheldomar.
They also have Type 1 (base 10 gp) gems in Geoff, and Type II and III (base 50 and base 100-500 gp) gems in Sterich.
That's a heck of a lot of wealth.
Oh, and I already knew about rubies being sapphires. I found out long ago when trying to look up all the gems listed in the DMG1 so I'd know what they are like.
No wonder Keoland wants more control over Geoff and Sterich
Problem solved on how to finance increased military costs on the southern border.
You are correct samwise, Keoland's relations with it's allies are very fluid, dependent on personality. It strikes me almost as a GH social experiment Monarchy/Anarchy.
Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown especially seated on the Lion Throne.
Btw since you take such an interest in Keoland, what were the reasons the sea princes broke with the navy if it is under one family.
Great Thread!!! Sorry I can't really contribute all that much to it, but I sure will be follwing it avidly!
Perhaps I'll skew the types/amounts of certian precious metals and gems in the treasure hordes of monsters in this area that the pc's in my campaign will soon be coming across they begin the G-D-Q series. I am really looking forward to the pc's interacting with the locals too. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Okay, this is a great topic, and one that I'll re-read numerous times.
But allow me to speak specifically about the Yeomanry. I'm currently running a campaign there, circa 586.
A surprisingly large number of Yeomanry militia (and even some of their professional Army) have volunteered to fight in (oh, pick a war). The attempted incursion by the Giants of the Jotens took hundreds of men and vast resources to defend against, and the threat of the Scarlet Brotherhood from the south (and the resettling of the countless refugees from their takover of the Hold of the Sea Princes) takes up even more of both the volunteer and professional resources of the Yeomanry.
While it is true that the Yeomanry fared better than most countries in the recent past, they haven't exactly had a great time, either. Their primary saving grace against the Giants was the isolationism that held the bulk of their soldiers at home instead of sending them abroad. Second is the fact that much of the population has served in the Militia, and is ready to defend their land.
However, I find no evidence that they seek to invade others' lands. Frankly, the Yeomanry left Keoland when the latter began to invade other countries, and their main fighting force is militia members who cannot stray too far from home. On the other hand, it is your campaign....
My Yeomanry doesn't have any one large problem, but a number of smaller ones: Cleaning up the Giants. Refugee problems from the Sea Princes. Missing Militia and Army soldiers who went off to help Sterich, Geoff, or even to bear arms against Iuz. It's gotten to the point where the new Freeholder has reduced the annual cost of adventuring parties from 1000 freegold to 500 freegold, in the hopes that adventurers would take up some of the slack. Like most government ideas, this sounded good at the time, but it has had mixed results.... Local adventuring groups can sometimes resemble a Grosspokesman's enforcers or may hire out to the highest bidder.
In addition, a certain village in the southwest corner of the country has seen unusual activities in the mountains south of town. Luckily, there is a young but dedicated home-grown group of adventurers willing to check it out.
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