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    Canonfire :: View topic - Greyhawk City Military & Faithful Service
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    Greyhawk City Military & Faithful Service
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    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:19 am  
    Greyhawk City Military & Faithful Service

    This post deals with the "arrangement" of clerical service in the Greyhawk City military (but could be generalized to other regions, of course), specifically the faiths noted in The City of Greyhawk, From the Ashes, and The Adventure Begins sources: St Cuthbert, Pholtus, and Heironeous, with Mayaheine adding on only after the Greyhawk Wars.

    In my mind, military service in the local militia/guard and/or the Cairn Hills is a requirement for those who serve Heironeous in much the same way that some countries have compulsory military service from their male civilians. The length of service may vary, or perhaps it is an on-going service where clerics venerating the Archpaladin have a revolving term of duty with other members of the Sanctum so long as they are stationed in the free city.

    Service is also required of St Cuthbertine clerics, but this is not necessarily military in nature. The faithful of St Cuthbert have a huge influence in the Free City more than just its defense and protection (legal issues, aiding the poor and lowly with the aegis of the Pelorians, to name a few), but there are a few more militant members of this faith who perform their own mandatory public service by filling the ranks of the military. Others serve in the local branches of The Nightwatchmen, as it is their order which supports this group of protectors.

    Like their counterparts, those of Pholtus likewise perform compulsory service, but this is almost always about upholding the rigid laws and maintaining the status quo of the City. A few clerics serve in the militia but they are greatly eclipsed by the faiths of Heironeous and St Cuthbert.

    This service is not free, of course, and the City must pay for the addition of its clerics bolstering the guard and defense of the Cairn Hills and its mining communities. Clerics must tithe (at least 10%) of their incomes to their respective churches and maintain their own arms, armor, and equipment (includes spell components).

    However, I must admit that I have not found any source that clearly states the costs for maintaining clerics (or mages, for that matter) in any standing retinue. The closest I came to was mention of the cost of a clerical chaplain in the 2e sourceguide, Complete Book of Paladins and the basic cost given for hiring clerics (and wizards) to cast spells.

    Thusly, I am opening the forum to ideas and suggestions of a reasonable wage. Obviously, this is dependent upon the power (level) of the caster. I was thinking somewhere along the lines of 50 gp per spell level cast, but I am not sure (ex: a priest capable of 3rd lvl spells earns 150 gp monthly), and am open to discussion.

    Personally, comparing the monthly wages of even elite troops as per the DMG (1st and 2nd editions especially), even this seems exorbitant, but maybe it is justifiable given the benefits that spell-casters may grant their units.

    ideas welcome,

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:28 am  
    Re: Greyhawk City Military & Faithful Service

    Lanthorn wrote:


    In my mind, military service in the local militia/guard and/or the Cairn Hills is a requirement for those who serve Heironeous in much the same way that some countries have compulsory military service from their male civilians.


    Just in Greyhawk, or everywhere?
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:07 am  
    Re: Greyhawk City Military & Faithful Service

    rasgon wrote:
    Lanthorn wrote:


    In my mind, military service in the local militia/guard and/or the Cairn Hills is a requirement for those who serve Heironeous in much the same way that some countries have compulsory military service from their male civilians.


    Just in Greyhawk, or everywhere?


    I think it is entirely reasonable to assume this is a requirement everywhere.

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:41 pm  

    Even in evil nations where local militias might be expected to help oppress and terrorize the citizentry?
    GreySage

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    Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:12 pm  

    Offhand, I cannot think of any nation with an evil slant that has a standing army comprising Heironeans. In those nations (such as Aerdy), Hextor would reign...

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:55 am  

    What I mean is, if you're a cleric of Heironeous who lives in an evil land, are you required to join the local militia?
    GreySage

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    Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:44 am  

    I would think this would be an ethos violation that runs contradictory to the dogma of the religion. Even though Heironeans are lawful, and thus, inherently law-abiding in general, they do not support laws that oppress and/or harm people. In such a case, I think Heironeans would actively, and perhaps openly, refuse to serve in such a regime, just as we have had political activists do the same. Some may be imprisoned for their 'crimes,' or even worse, giving rise to a rebellion/revolt in which Heironeans would seek to overthrow such tyrants and despots, and establish a government that was not founded on precepts based on cruelty, oppression, and the like.

    -Lanthorn
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    Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:33 am  

    On the money side of things. I think it would depend on prevailing conditions. What does a peasant make as a common laborer in a day. Is it the same in City of Greyhawk as it is in some little out of the way hamlet? Also the differences in the various DnD editions is going to change that as well.

    You could get really into it and track the various rise and falls in prices due to factors of economy, war and peace, etc.
    Me personally I would set one whole thing for my entire venue and leave it, unless something out on the fringes of the gaming system really threw in a monkey wrench. Complete invasion of the entire mythos from another dimension or invention/discovery of an entirely new bizzare form of magic for example.

    Kit
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    Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:39 am  

    Just thought of this...Could it be that the government in each city does things differently. One city might pay the clerics. Another might make it voluntary for higher ranks but mandatory for lower ranks with a sliding scale of service versus pay in between.

    Maybe the clerical order gets a tax break depending on how many it sends or provides.

    Kit
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    Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:51 am  

    In the AD&D DMG, Gygax mentions clerics and magic-users being indentured to the city/town. I like to see it as each recognized temple within the city being obligated to provide one or more of its clergy for defense of the city. This is compulsory service, and the clerics are not paid.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:07 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:
    In the AD&D DMG, Gygax mentions clerics and magic-users being indentured to the city/town. I like to see it as each recognized temple within the city being obligated to provide one or more of its clergy for defense of the city. This is compulsory service, and the clerics are not paid.


    -Organizations probably due it in lieu of taxes (classic "feudalism"), individuals have adebt to pay (fine, or paying off a domain-funded loan).

    For the Domain of Greyhawk, I've always had it that every man was required to serve in time of emergency (I think the boxed set mentions it). I also assumed that every man had to serve one day per quarter, although it's not normally enforced. I considered single women having the requirement, but decided it was too PC. If you see a woman on service, it through some sort of "deal."
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:52 pm  

    For clerics, I think the important thing to remember is that for both St. Cuthbert and Heironeous, they are engaged in their mission field, i.e. converting and ministering to the armed forces of Greyhawk. Their churches likely send them out and support them as necessary. The city may pay them a small stipend (maybe equal to a junior officer), but nothing luxurious (like 50 gp / level). I think of them somewhat like modern day chaplains in the military. They are paid as anyone else (as officers) but are sponsored in their position by the church which might underwrite some of their expenses. I think priests of Pholtus and Pelor would be likewise considered on mission when working with the Watch within Greyhawk. I doubt that the local church hierarchies would be too pleased to have rogue priests of their faith hiring out as mercenaries to the city and mucking up their missionary system and skewing the costs as well.

    As for wizards, I assume that the city would pay them well (as much as a captain, maybe with a small bonus per level of spell, say 5 or 10 gp), but they would also have some access to their posts' library and laboratory. I think the city would provide components to most common spells that are not easily harvested by an individual. I look at wizards as working either for the fringe benefits, or the fact that perhaps the city underwrites some of the scholarships to the University of Magical Arts... call it wizardly ROTC. They pay for your magical tuition, and you owe them some time at various intervals. In addition, some wizards may feel the need to test out their research and "adventure" a little, and work with the watch, while dangerous, is probably not as dangerous as going into Castle Greyhawk (unless your watchmen fill the role of red-shirted ensigns).

    Pay should never be too extravagant. If the regular troops know that the priest and wizard are making enough to buy and sell them, discipline would be severely eroded, and a lot of priests or wizards might end up robbed and or dead.
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:12 pm  

    These are ALL great ideas, so keep them coming!

    The main reason I am posing this question to everyone is b/c I have a player who has a cleric (crusader) of Heironeous who serves in the Greyhawk military (his main post is touring the Cairn Hills, but also had a post at one of the mining communities). Nowhere could I find what the wage of a priest (or mage, for that matter!) would be on the list of hirelings. Surely, mages and wizards get some type of wage when working for a government! And I would imagine this has something to do with that character's (power) level. I wanted ideas exactly what that was, so I really appreciate your input and ideas.

    eager to read more,

    Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:22 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:
    In the AD&D DMG, Gygax mentions clerics and magic-users being indentured to the city/town. I like to see it as each recognized temple within the city being obligated to provide one or more of its clergy for defense of the city. This is compulsory service, and the clerics are not paid.


    Is this 1e? What page? I'd like to peruse it myself.

    thanks,

    Lanthorn
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:28 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    DMPrata wrote:
    In the AD&D DMG, Gygax mentions clerics and magic-users being indentured to the city/town. I like to see it as each recognized temple within the city being obligated to provide one or more of its clergy for defense of the city. This is compulsory service, and the clerics are not paid.


    Is this 1e? What page? I'd like to peruse it myself.

    thanks,

    Lanthorn
    Can't quote page number right now, but it's in the city/town random encounters.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:40 pm  

    In a world where magic is real, I think most governments would have compulsory service of clerics and mages at least in times of war and/or potential conflict. In peacetime, they would likely be expected to keep their skills honed by serving a short stint of a few days to weeks, ala the national guard. High priests, guildmasters, and similarly-connected individuals would likely not be required to do so in peacetime.

    Other variables would be the laws of the nation and its ability to enforce them, and the type of priesthood. The government of Greyhawk, for instance, might accept coin in lieu of service (though they may still require a minimum number of clerics/mages to serve), while Furyondy may offer no such option, given the constant threat of Iuz. On the priesthood's end, the church of Zilchus may prefer to pay Greyhawk's tithe, while the church of Heironeous would consider buying one's way out of service akin to blasphemy.

    In order to encourage clerics & mages to serve, governments likely would not require such individuals to perform the same mundane tasks as your average infantryman--no digging ditches, cleaning latrines or stables, drilling with weapons, or the like.

    There is also the question of if the government knows whether someone is a spellcaster. It may even be something noted by census takers. Temples & mage guilds would be easy to track, of course, but what about "free range" spellcasters? In some places, some of these casters might wish to keep their powers secret for fear of conscription, especially good clerics in evil lands.
    GreySage

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    Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:38 pm  

    Good input so far, fellas! :)

    I agree that in a world of magic, spellcasters should be viewed by governments much as our real world governments view specialists like doctors, chaplains, computer technicians, etc. They would be encouraged to join (treated as officers rather than enlisted personnel, higher pay, better accommodations, etc.) at best and conscripted at worst. They would be considered a boon addition to most any squad by the squad members, the government, and every level of leadership in between.

    My Keep on the Borderlands campaign saw the PCs joining the Keep's guard and patrolling with them. They were very well-liked by the Keep's common soldiers and with the officers because they were first into any fray and free with their spellcasting. The morale of the guards was up while the PCs were part of their organization and the soldiers were volunteering to go out on patrols - as dangerous as they were - because they had so much success working with such skilled companions. That's the way I see most goodly nations and their military working with individuals that have such skills as spellcasters and other character classes.

    The morale of soldiers in evil nations would be similarly improved if they had like-minded spellcasters accompanying their raiding and plundering ventures.

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