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    Canonfire :: View topic - Why was worship of Trithereon banned in Keoland?
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    Why was worship of Trithereon banned in Keoland?
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 05, 2003
    Posts: 57
    From: Gettysburg, PA

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    Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:04 pm  
    Why was worship of Trithereon banned in Keoland?

    Does anyone know why the worship of Trithereon is bannned in Keoland in the 580's and beyond? Keoland generally allows the worship of 13 deities, Trithereon being one, but then I see references to worship to him being banned. Anyone know why, when, the detaild, etc?

    Thanks in advance,

    Regards,
    Dave Guerrieri
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

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    Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:04 pm  

    Curious where you read that worshipping Trithereon was banned in Keoland. What is your source?

    -Lanthorn

    p.s. note the Rune of Pursuit is my Avatar (at least it has been) Wink
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    From: Michigan

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    Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:08 pm  

    I don't think any of that is accurate.

    Trithereon is mentioned in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, which is set in 591 CY, as one of Keoland's major gods.

    The Living Greyhawk Journal #1 says the following on Keoland's religious laws:

    Quote:
    Establishment of any faith [by the government] is forbidden in the founding charter of Keoland. This was an early exhortation by the Neheli and a recognition by the founders of the kingdom that religion often fosters division and conflict between disparate peoples. Given the diverse coalition of Suel, Oeridian, and demihuman clans that formed the early kingdom, it was decided early on to exclude this element from civic life. While this proscription has generally been observed, religion has by no means been suppressed in Keoland, and many faiths have flourished in the kingdom over the course of the last nine centuries. Almost all the gods in the Flanaess are represented there to one degree or another, although the political influence of any one is modest at best.


    It seems safe to say that there was never any establishment of a 13-god maximum.

    The only banned religions and organizations in the Living Greyhawk "Keoland crime and punishment" document are:

    Scarlet Brotherhood
    The Seekers
    Dustdiggers
    Cult of the Earth Dragon
    Cult of the Black Flame
    Lords of the Elder Elements
    Black Brotherhood
    Cult of Vecna
    House Malhel
    Acolytes of the Skin
    Alienists
    Blood Magi
    Master Transmogrifists
    Black Flame Zealots
    Blighters
    Entropomancers
    Ur-Priests
    Ravagers
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 05, 2003
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    From: Gettysburg, PA

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    Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:09 pm  

    It is from the Keoland Living Greyhawk sources. I know it is not canon, but just very curious as to what the church of Trithereon (or some followers) may have done.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:46 pm  

    Thyrnbryn wrote:
    It is from the Keoland Living Greyhawk sources.


    I don't think it is, since I just quoted from Keoland Living Greyhawk sources and they contradict what you said.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:42 pm  

    From LG Keoland 596 CY Meta Org book, under Religious Organizations - "One recent event that has had an impact was the Trithereon Riots in Niole Dra (and the subsequent banning of the proselytizing for Trithereon within Keoland)."

    From the Kingdom of Keoland 596 LG Guidebook:
    "Major Religions: Heironeous, Phaulkon, St.Cuthbert, Fharlanghn, Ehlonna, Lydia, Osprem, Zilchus, Kord, Xerbo, Norebo, Olidammara, Elf Pantheon and Tritheron (presently banned)."

    So I was hoping there may be further information hidden somewhere, and I know we have LG players/admins here. Heck, I was a Keoland LG Triad.

    Not optimistic about finding further info, but if it is to be found, it would be here.

    Thanks!
    DG
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 24, 2006
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    Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:59 pm  

    Riots. Boom, answer. Trithereon cultists are a bunch of malcontents and rabble rousers. I would not be surprised if cult activity faced official disapproval in a number of realms. LG regimes, too, not just neutral or evil places.

    YMMV
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 12, 2003
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    From: Boston

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    Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:27 am  

    Sounds like the result of a 595 CY interactive or adventure to me (since it had to be recent to be incorporated into the 596 CY documents). I'd try searching your mod archive (assuming you have one since you used to be a Triad member). If not, maybe someone is working on a Keoland version of my LG BK summary? Last, maybe ping the old regional Yahoo group, assuming one exists (the BK one still exists, is just locked except for major announcements).
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: May 12, 2005
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    Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:19 pm  

    The first reference I found is all the way back in KEO1-01 March through Keoland, so I suspect it was Triad backstory and not an adventure outcome.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:34 pm  

    Just speculation, but whoever wrote the Trithereon riots into the LG: Keoland timeline could have been working off of this from the adventure "Setting Sun" in DNG# 73, "In 5249 SD (-267 CY), Priests and followers of the god Trithereon, fleeing from oppressions in the then-young Kingdom of Keoland, left the Sheldomar Valley."
    No clue why there would have been oppression of Trithereonites in Keoland around -267. The only thing that stands out in that period was that it was the reign of the only non-Suloise Keoish king, Mandros of Sedenna. We could probably cook up a related reason.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:51 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:
    The first reference I found is all the way back in KEO1-01 March through Keoland, so I suspect it was Triad backstory and not an adventure outcome.


    More detail on this: The ban was on the temple of Trithereon "practicing its religious rites" and only within the boundaries of Niole Dra. The ban was for 100 years, although I wonder if this could be a typo and meant 1 year, since there is a following sentence that seems to be incomplete, referring to the possibility of the temple doing anything else illegal within 5 years of the posted ban. I'd assume they'd be outlawed or some other stronger measure.
    The meta org book also mentions that Trithereon is not represented in Niole Dra, and that the chapel to Trithereon in the Temple in Niole Dra, which holds chapels to several gods, is closed. Given the emphasis on Niole Dra I'd disregard the line about the proselytizing of Trithereon's cult being outlawed in the entire Kingdom, although I guess you could specifically outlaw proselytizing in the Kingdom and then outlaw religious rites for existing Trithereonites within Niole Dra as a more restrictive measure.
    The only other mention in LG: Keoland I found was a reference to a Trithereonite anarchist group in Cryllor, in KEO7-05 Face of the Scourge, but I found the plot confusing so I'm not quite sure what their deal is.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:41 am  

    Quote:
    The only other mention in LG: Keoland I found was a reference to a Trithereonite anarchist group in Cryllor, in KEO7-05 Face of the Scourge, but I found the plot confusing so I'm not quite sure what their deal is.


    That's interesting, because an anarchist group doesn't really need any external event to pecipitate its actions, or really need to have done anything. Just existing and proselytizing is seditious enough.

    Normally, if I read about riots, I wonder what they're rioting about. The government's inaction during the giant invasions of Geoff and Sterich, for example. But if they're anarchists, they don't really need a reason apart from the inequities of the status quo.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
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    Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:05 pm  

    Thyrnbryn wrote:
    From LG Keoland 596 CY Meta Org book...

    -So this is something that happens in 595 or 596?
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 12, 2003
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    Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:13 pm  

    A 596 CY meta-org book would describe the organizations (and their game mechanic rules) which are expected to exist in 596 CY. As these books took a while to edit and compile (even when just updating from the previous year), they would likely only contain information up to the end of 595 CY UNLESS the Triad made revisions during the gaming calendar year. I think we did that in the BK once or twice to adjust for new rules allowed mid-year by the Circle, i.e. new access to items, feats, spells, p-classes, etc. I don't think we updated fluff at that time but we may have, I forget. No idea if Keoland did or not though.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:15 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Thyrnbryn wrote:
    From LG Keoland 596 CY Meta Org book...

    -So this is something that happens in 595 or 596?


    590. Here's what's written in KEO1-01 March Through Keoland. It's at the beginning of the adventure in a section on rumors and proclamations that might interest the players. Seemingly more for flavor than relevance to the adventure.

    Proclamation stamped with the official seal of the city posted in several market square:
    "Whereby the legally recognized temple, consecrated to the alleged divinity Trithereon, has, in direct violation of Niole Dra LAW, fomented and abetted a riot by Niole Dra citizens. Said temple shall be banned from practicing its religious rites within the limits of the Niole Dra legal jurisdiction for a period of time no less and no more than one hundred years. Should the aforementioned temple engage in further heinous, illegal acts which threaten the peace and security of Niole Dra, as judged by His Honor Lord Mayor Pugnace Dillip, within five years of the posting of this declaration. Posted this the thirtieth of Fireseek, 590 CY."
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:21 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Quote:
    The only other mention in LG: Keoland I found was a reference to a Trithereonite anarchist group in Cryllor, in KEO7-05 Face of the Scourge, but I found the plot confusing so I'm not quite sure what their deal is.


    That's interesting, because an anarchist group doesn't really need any external event to pecipitate its actions, or really need to have done anything. Just existing and proselytizing is seditious enough.

    Normally, if I read about riots, I wonder what they're rioting about. The government's inaction during the giant invasions of Geoff and Sterich, for example. But if they're anarchists, they don't really need a reason apart from the inequities of the status quo.


    They seem to be trying to worsen a refugee crisis to create chaos for the Count, although if I'm reading it right they are also capturing refugees and shipping them into slavery in the Tors. In some places it looks like they may be a front for a Hextoran group, but I can't really tell for sure.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    From: The Pomarj

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    Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:06 pm  

    [quote="smillan_31"]
    jamesdglick wrote:


    Proclamation stamped with the official seal of the city posted in several market square:
    "Whereby the legally recognized temple, consecrated to the alleged divinity Trithereon, has, in direct violation of Niole Dra LAW, fomented and abetted a riot by Niole Dra citizens. Said temple shall be banned from practicing its religious rites within the limits of the Niole Dra legal jurisdiction for a period of time no less and no more than one hundred years. Should the aforementioned temple engage in further heinous, illegal acts which threaten the peace and security of Niole Dra, as judged by His Honor Lord Mayor Pugnace Dillip, within five years of the posting of this declaration. Posted this the thirtieth of Fireseek, 590 CY."


    I hope it was just a typo. "Should the aforementioned temple engage in further heinous, illegal acts which threaten the peace and security of Niole Dra, as judged by His Honor Lord Mayor Pugnace Dillip, within five years of the posting of this declaration. " is a sentence fragment, not a complete sentence. This fragment should either be connected to the text before it, or there should be some text following, which would explain just WHAT the Keoish authorities will do, should the aforementioned temple continue with illegal activities, etc.

    So, I am going to act on the idea that it is a typo, and this is simply a fragment, which should have been separated from the preceding text by a comma rather than the period in the original post.
    Going with the assumption as stated in the paragraph above, the proclamation sounds to me like a warning to the Trithereon churches, saying effectively "F--- up just ONE MORE TIME, and we WILL enact this 100 year ban on you!"
    That is how the text, as shown in the original post, looks to me.
    GreySage

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    Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:50 pm  

    BlueWitch said it first. I agree with her interpretation.

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