Having an interesting discussion with a fellow 'hawker about the lines of succession for families dwelling out of Veluna. I am curious what everyone thinks as I need to 'flesh out' how titles and inheritance may be passed from one generation to another among the nobles in Veluna since my player has a lesser noble (paladin of Heironeous) who hails from that sovereign nation.
It seems pretty clear to me that in the neighboring nation of Furyondy, the traditional lines of (medieval) succession are pretty well demarcated along male lineages wherein titles, property, and the like pass from father to eldest son.
However, Veluna is an altogether different sort of country and not the typical feudal society and seems to me, at least, to be more egalitarian, and may even allow eldest daughters to claim titles, lands, etc. instead of only sons. Or perhaps all children are given an equal share of such.
I invite and encourage discussion! Please offer me your thoughts and ideas.
One aspect of the proposed marriage of Thrommel of Furyondy to Jolene of Veluna was that Thrommel would rule both nations in matters secular, and Hazen would rule in matters spiritual. Jolene was...not considered so far as ruling was concerned, and so it would seem that Veluna is traditionally a feudal patriarchy as well, and very similar to Furyondy.
Now, there is no reason that the situation would have left Jolene uninvolved. Considering that Thrommel is/was a charismatic, hands-on war leader, he might often be away from the capitol, killing something evil no doubt, and so Jolene might have great influence, or outright power of rulership over, the nobles of both lands; especially considering that she would not be "just" the queen, but also the daughter of the Archcleric.
Or, Thrommel's *seneschal* (and Hazen) would take care of things while he was out of town, if you go with a more traditional feudal patrairachy set-up. Jolene may then have been cloistered most of her life not only because she is the daughter of the Archlcleric, but because she is one of the keys to uniting the two nations, which must be protected. Jolene could have very much been sheltered most of her life. That is a much more likely scenario than having a headstrong Jolene who does what she wants; with an indulgent father who just smiles and shakes his head at her "shenanigans."
You could really go either way though, but it also makes more sense for two nations interested in uniting to have very similar societies, as they would then be much more amenable to the idea of uniting. I mean, Canada and the U.S. are pretty good buddies, but you don't hear anybody saying, "Hey, you know what we should do?"
So, they are probably both traditional feudal patriarchies. There is no reason that Jolene must be an impotent figurehead/symbol though, even if the two nations are feudal patriarchies. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
...Jolene might have great influence, or outright power of rulership over, the nobles of both lands; especially considering that she would not be "just" the queen, but also the daughter of the Archcleric.
Or... Jolene may then have been cloistered most of her life not only because she is the daughter of the Archlcleric, but because she is one of the keys to uniting the two nations, which must be protected. Jolene could have very much been sheltered most of her life. That is a much more likely scenario than having a headstrong Jolene who does what she wants...
You could really go either way though...
-"Sheltered" and "Headstrong" are not neccesarily mutually exclusive.
Jolene of Samprastadar is the daughter of the Plar of Veluna (the ruler of the Archclericy's foremost noble house; a plar is equivalent to an earl in rank), not the Canon.
Jolene is also the Supreme Mistress of the Celestial Order of the Moons, a congress of Veluna's secular rulers. Each archdiocese in Veluna is co-ruled by a noble (such as a plar) and a bishop. As the appointed leader of Jolene's secular rulers, Jolene is powerful in her own right, though not as powerful as Hazen. Would a woman ordinarily get this role, though, or did she only get it because the Plar had no male heir? My assumption is the latter; that titles are inherited by the eldest son or, if no son exists, the eldest daughter.
The religious counterpart of the Celestial Order is the College of Bishops; Hazen is the head of state, and the Order and the College only have advisory roles, officially.
The Guide to the World of Greyhawk states that upon his marriage to Jolene, Thrommel would have become Provost of Veluna, becoming the secular ruler of that state, co-equal to Hazen, which seems to be a title that doesn't currently exist. In exchange, Hazen would have become the spiritual head of a united Furyondy and Veluna. I think Jolene would have retained her title of Supreme Mistress of the Celestial Order of the Moons, but this would still just be an advisory position, secondary to both Hazen and Thrommel.
So yes, it looks like there's some patriarchal bias in that it's assumed that in a united Furyondy and Veluna Jolene would have a lesser role. Of course, as the wife of the king, who knows how much influence over policy she'd actually have? But it would be "soft" influence, not codified in law.
Hehe. Sorry. I always do that. Fortunately I have you lot to correct me...yet again. Not the first time, not the second time, probably not the last time. Maybe I just like the idea of her being Hazen's daughter better.
My assumption is the latter; that titles are inherited by the eldest son or, if no son exists, the eldest daughter.
Yes, and she apparently never married. She likely has no surviving paternal uncles either.
"Sheltered" and "Headstrong" are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
I mean as in raised in a nunnery, then expediently married off to a suitable political match. Regarding her position, she could very well be a very strong personality, beloved and respected by the people, and taking on the duties of her aging or dead father. Later, she is described as a land-owning priestess, so a noblewoman of some influence. One can assume her parents are both dead by this time, and a popular (and influential) figure in the nation. If she is a priestess of Rao, headstrong doesn't seem very suitable. If one goes with St. Cuthbert, then by all means go with headstrong! _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I say do what fits the narrative best. Don't be afraid to mix it up, if that's what works for you. Don't forget that the UK has three different legal systems.
IMC the more Suloise-influenced provinces of Keoland practice absolute primogeniture, with the eldest, regardless of sex, inheriting; in the more Oeridian-influenced provinces, and the throne of the kingdom, it's by male primogeniture, with the latter succession provisional upon election. So, the NPC wife of the fighter IMC will inherit her father's land in the south of Keoland when he dies. But if her father's older brother, who rules the traditional family lands in one of the northern marches, died without issue, those lands would go to her cousin, the son of her father's younger brother. Maybe unnecessarily complicated, but I think details like this really make the campaign come to life.
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