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Bards in Battles

 
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jamesdglick
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:29 pm    Post subject: Bards in Battles Reply with quote

While doing the Battle of the Loftwood, I noticed that a single bard can be quite the force multiplier if serving as a drummer or bugler for a company of men who are close-arm interval, two or three ranks deep. If he is centrally placed behind the formation, the whole remainder of the 225 man company can benefit from his +1 to hit, +1 damage, and +1 morale checks bonuses.

Does any other D&D 3.5 class have the ability to use music in this way besides bards? I can't think of any spells that would allow it. Maybe a prestige class? But even then, it would probably be bard related. A cleric domain? (BTW, why wasn't there ever a "Music" domain?)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bard is very effective in mass combat. Not much else in the way of combat music in 3E/3.5E though. You might look at the 3E Warmaster (their Battle Standard ability is pretty good) for a thematic non-musical leader though.

The War Priest is another that can affect mass battles, and adds buffing cleric spells to the mix.

Speaking of which, we can't forget the class that is often maligned as being a "useless" and boring healing battery - the cleric. One cannot underestimate the value of bless (+1 morale bonus to hit and to fear saves to all allies in a 50' burst!Shocked) and prayer (+1 luck bonus to hit, to damage, to saves, and to skill checks to all allies in a 40' burst!Shocked). They are nothing to laugh at when applied en masse, and especially when applied together - they stack! And while your allies are being affected by those spells, you hit the enemy with spells like bane, doom, and curse to skew things in your favor even further. The more things these spells affect, the bigger the net payoff. The only other thing that can skew a battle as well as a cleric is a wizard loaded to the gills with area spells, but it takes higher class levels to get multiples of the most effective of those area spells. A 5th level cleric can deal out a lot of number modification with just one 1st level bless spell, and they can cast that spell many times. A 5th level cleric can also cast prayer at least once; twice if they have a 17 Wisdom. Magic circle vs. [insert most appropriate type here] is also very useful. Such applications can potentially deal out/prevent more damage than two fireballs ever will. Bless ranged units (1st level clerics can do this! Multiple times even! Suck it magic missile!), and use prayer+bless+magic circle vs. [insert most appropriate type here] on close quarter units to devastating effect.

You might also look at the Marshall class (which can be particularly brutal when the character has a very high Charisma score) and War Chief prestige class from the Miniatures Handbook.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cebrion wrote:
...You might look at the 3E Warmaster (their Battle Standard ability is pretty good) for a thematic non-musical leader though.

The War Priest is another that can affect mass battles, and adds buffing cleric spells to the mix.

Speaking of which, we can't forget the class that is often maligned as being a "useless" and boring healing battery - the cleric...

You might also look at the Marshall class (which can be particularly brutal when the character has a very high Charisma score) and War Chief prestige class from the Miniatures Handbook.


-I'm already tuned into those; I was specifically looking for someone who can double as a drummer or bugler AND a combat buffer.

Cebrion wrote:
...Speaking of which, we can't forget the class that is often maligned as being a "useless" and boring healing battery - the cleric...


-A single low level cleric (or healer, or whatever) with a relatively inexpensive Wand of Cure Minor Wounds can save the lives of 50 seriously wounded (i.e., in negative hit points) men by stabilizing them (i.e., keeping them from hitting -10). It's particularly handy if you allow recharging, which I do. A more expensive Wand of Cure Light Wounds could actually put them back into the fight, although I'm a little fussy with my morale rules on that: Maybe they'll fight hard, maybe not.

I also developed a Mass Cure Light Wounds for the same purpose.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is such a spell in the SRD: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mass_Cure_Light_Wounds

As to a drummer/bugler, bard is the only one. Not very fitting though, seeing as drummers/buglers are not inspiring presences, only conveyors of orders.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cebrion wrote:
There is such a spell in the SRD: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mass_Cure_Light_Wounds...


-Doh! I meant Cure Minor Wounds.

Cebrion wrote:
...As to a drummer/bugler, bard is the only one. Not very fitting though, seeing as drummers/buglers are not inspiring presences, only conveyors of orders.


-Inspiration isn't necessarily about WHAT is done, but HOW you do it.

A while ago, I played a bard for a homebrew D&D 3.5 campaign. I made him a cross between a herald and a gallant. Instead of strumming a lute, he'd play "to arms", "charge" or whatever was appropriate. One of the other players congratulated me on creating a concept for a bard that wasn't totally lame. Laughing Razz
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to read about some hideously destructive effectiveness in mass combat situations in 3.x rules, read about how a single high-level druid routed an entire army!: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?58227-Tales-of-Wyre&p=1029552&viewfull=1#post1029552

The entire story is well-worth reading, in particular if you're interested in more demonic ideas for Graz'zt and other princes of the Abyss, too.
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jamesdglick
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grodog wrote:
If you want to read about some hideously destructive effectiveness in mass combat situations in 3.x rules, read about how a single high-level druid routed an entire army!: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?58227-Tales-of-Wyre&p=1029552&viewfull=1#post1029552

The entire story is well-worth reading, in particular if you're interested in more demonic ideas for Graz'zt and other princes of the Abyss, too.


-Personally, 15th level is ridiculous for a PC. Shocked Laughing But so it goes. It would apply to an NPC, as well. FWIW, the DM's analysis was well done, but I don't like that he was too lazy to actually calculate the deaths. Go pack to being a player, you bum! Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamesdglick wrote:
-A single low level cleric (or healer, or whatever) with a relatively inexpensive Wand of Cure Minor Wounds can save the lives of 50 seriously wounded (i.e., in negative hit points) men by stabilizing them (i.e., keeping them from hitting -10). It's particularly handy if you allow recharging, which I do. A more expensive Wand of Cure Light Wounds could actually put them back into the fight, although I'm a little fussy with my morale rules on that: Maybe they'll fight hard, maybe not.


I am not sure why you think a cleric (of any level) would need a wand for this purpose. Even a 1st level cleric with the 0-level orison, Cure Minor Wounds (or, Stabilize, in Pf), could use it on an indefinite number of wounded soldiers since orisons may be used as often as desired, once per round. A wand couldn't be used more than once per round and would run out of charges after 50 uses. The only benefit would be for a cleric without access to that particular orison.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grodog wrote:
If you want to read about some hideously destructive effectiveness in mass combat situations in 3.x rules, read about how a single high-level druid routed an entire army!

Oh, druids have always been very effective on the battlefield, regardless of game edition. A simple entangle spell can ruin any unit's day, not to mention the nastier stuff they can do at higher levels (that muddy field the enemy's elite heavy infantry is slogging through just became rock! Evil Grin). It is just a bit too convenient that battlefields so happen to be outdoors in the midst of nature. Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamesdglick wrote:
-Personally, 15th level is ridiculous for a PC. Shocked Laughing But so it goes. It would apply to an NPC, as well.


I've played 1e campaigns with PCs up to 17th or so level, but my sense was that 3.x was supposed to scale up to high levels easily, including beyond 20th to Epic levels. I didn't play it long enough to rise above 6th or 7th level, though, so I don't have any personal experience with PCs that high a level in 3.x.

jamesdglick wrote:
FWIW, the DM's analysis was well done, but I don't like that he was too lazy to actually calculate the deaths. Go pack to being a player, you bum! Wink


LOL, I don't think I'd fault anyone for not wanting to roll 800 d20s each round for combat ;)

Cebrion wrote:
Oh, druids have always been very effective on the battlefield, regardless of game edition. A simple entangle spell can ruin any unit's day, not to mention the nastier stuff they can do at higher levels (that muddy field the enemy's elite heavy infantry is slogging through just became rock! Evil Grin). It is just a bit too convenient that battlefields so happen to be outdoors in the midst of nature. Laughing


Excellent points all-around, Brian!

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamesdglick wrote:
Cebrion wrote:
...As to a drummer/bugler, bard is the only one. Not very fitting though, seeing as drummers/buglers are not inspiring presences, only conveyors of orders.


-Inspiration isn't necessarily about WHAT is done, but HOW you do it.

I would say purpose is a big factor. Command musicians are not bards. The purpose of a drummer is to set movement pace within a unit. The purpose of the fife/bugle/horn player is to relay commands to the unit from the command musician, whose purpose is to relay commands to all units in the army from the overall commander.

It is in no way bad or any sort of a stretch to "confine" a bard to doing such things as when the leader gives the "big speech" to psyche up the troops, the bard is the one that replies with the smart comments at the most appropriate moments that makes the soldiers all laugh and/or further ramps up their ire, bravery, etc. (i.e. uses his vocal talents to inspire). Or, it is the bard that plays something like a national anthem (or similarly meaningful song to the soldiers) as the leader gives his speech, or as the soldiers charge into battle, or while they are locked in battle. Bardic inspiration also has a range of 10'/level, so that limits what can be done too.

I am not completely against the idea, but I think it would be better implemented just by way of having a bard join a key unit and use their musical/vocal skill set more directly, and leave the unit marching pace/orders to the drummer/fife youngsters who are not going to be ripping it up like Garth doing his drum solo in Wayne's World or like Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull. Every army musician learns one way of doing these things anyways, such that the soldiers don't become confused (i.e. the *purpose*). There is no room for "artistry" in this case. Now, if the musicians get killed, and the unit is effectively not able to operate withing the command structure properly anyways, sure, a bard might step in and instrumentally take control of the unit very directly, adding in their own bit of panache to the doing of it. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cebrion wrote:
...I would say purpose is a big factor...

I am not completely against the idea, but I think it would be better implemented just by way of having a bard join a key unit and use their musical/vocal skill set more directly...


-My PC was part of the inspiration for using bards for signaling, but it popped up came when I began working on Ratik's army, which has universal conscription (well, as universal as a chaotic-tilting society is likely to get). It's simpler to just have one guy do both jobs, considering how strapped for manpower Ratik is. Why have two guys carrying musical instruments when one guy can do both? It also cuts down on training overhead, since bards already being trained musicians. FWIW, the bard would generally be happier doing that than being a private or trooper.

I should point out, that by my calculations, Ratik doesn't actually get enough conscripts to fill every drummer or bugler position anyway.

SirXaris wrote:
...

I am not sure why you think a cleric (of any level) would need a wand for this purpose. Even a 1st level cleric with the 0-level orison, Cure Minor Wounds (or, Stabilize, in Pf), could use it on an indefinite number of wounded soldiers since orisons may be used as often as desired, once per round...


-Uh, this is D&D 3.5, not D&D 5.0. A 1st level cleric only gets 3 orisons a day (table 3-6 on p. 31, D&D 3.5 PHB)...
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamesdglick wrote:
Cebrion wrote:
...I would say purpose is a big factor...

I am not completely against the idea, but I think it would be better implemented just by way of having a bard join a key unit and use their musical/vocal skill set more directly...


-My PC was part of the inspiration for using bards for signaling, but it popped up came when I began working on Ratik's army, which has universal conscription (well, as universal as a chaotic-tilting society is likely to get). It's simpler to just have one guy do both jobs, considering how strapped for manpower Ratik is. Why have two guys carrying musical instruments when one guy can do both? It also cuts down on training overhead, since bards already being trained musicians. FWIW, the bard would generally be happier doing that than being a private or trooper.

I should point out, that by my calculations, Ratik doesn't actually get enough conscripts to fill every drummer or bugler position anyway.

Ratik surely has the people to do these jobs, namely as the job of being such a musician would not usually be taken on by battle worthy adults who would be of better service as soldiers, but by youngsters who would not yet be of proper physical stature to make effective fighters. Every person in their place.

"But I can't be in the army sir- I'm only this many years old sir!"

"Stow it you little snot! You're in the Ratik army now, and you're playing a drum, because that's how it is! If you live long enough, maybe one day you'll be cleaving orc skulls instead, or even be a bard! Now get to practicing!"



Laughing Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cebrion wrote:
...Ratik surely has the people to do these jobs, namely as the job of being such a musician would not usually be taken on by battle worthy adults who would be of better service as soldiers, but by youngsters who would not yet be of proper physical stature to make effective fighters...


-This would vary from army to army and from time period to time period.

It might be possible to start as a drummer and "work your way up" to carrying a musket, but it wasn't normally done that way. Musicians normally had their own career path from (e.g.) drummer, to drum corporal, to drum major. Also, see the link, below, where the Continental Army took line soldiers and turned them into drummers (1782). The same article mentions a desire to use men with "natural geniuses for music". Bards would fit the bill perfectly.



Juvenile musicians certainly existed (e.g., Johnny Clem), and children could (and did) fill the position, but the preference for company-level drummers or trumpeters in most armies was for adults, not children, since we are talking about a position of responsibility (e.g., drummers in the British army were paid the same as a corporal and were the ones who actually applied the whip). A good modern analogy is the guy with the rather archaic sounding title of a modern radiotelegraph operator (RTO). If you're carrying a radio for platoon leader or company commander, you're generally junior enlisted, but you're also one of the more experienced and sharper ones (i.e., dopes and rookies not preferred).

A battalion- or higher-level band is a place where juveniles could function, but a bands function was almost entirely musical, rather than a signaling, function (even a company drummer's function as a signaler IN COMBAT is usually exaggerated, but that's another debate).

Cebrion wrote:
..."But I can't be in the army sir- I'm only this many years old sir!"

"Stow it you little snot! You're in the Ratik army now, and you're playing a drum, because that's how it is! If you live long enough, maybe one day you'll be cleaving orc skulls instead, or even be a bard! Now get to practicing!"...


-I'm not aware of any army in the western world (a reasonable basis for the Flanaess) that CONSCRIPTED full-fledged children (say, under the age of 16) for military service. In the Middle Ages to Early-Modern period, the age limit for mandatory militia service was 16-60 in England, and pretty much the same for Scotland, France, and Spain. Not that "mistakes" didn't occur, of course. 😉

A few links from folks who have tried to study the subject:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=159770

http://www.revwar75.com/library/rees/musician1.htm

While we're at, I've actually done quite a bit of work on Ratik's armed forces ca. 578 CY. It wouldn't be too hard to put stuff in paragraph form, then add endnotes and a bibliography. The "submit an article" tab states that there are some sort of problems, though? I'm sure it can wait.;)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can submit an article, but don't use fonts other than Times New Roman, and no formatting of any kind whatsoever. Many times, that stuff just needs to be added afterwards to avoid issues. That being said, most submitted articles have no issues at all, but I have people e-mail them to me as well, just to be sure I can retrieve the article and be able to put it in a format that works properly. An article on the Ratikan (or other nation's) army would be pretty interesting I think, so submit away! Happy

My perspective is no doubt unduly influenced by the American Civil War, during which time it was fairly common to have boys and young teens take on the role of musicians playing the fife/drum/bugle. A bard's role just doesn't translate well to filling standard musician roles in an army is all I am saying. A unit musician is just a person with few ranks of music skill. A bard is something so far beyond that it isn't even comparable.

Also, I operate on the the assumption that bards are not very common. That doesn't mean that you would never find one doing this sort of thing, but I think it would be linked to something more exceptional. An example would be one of the musicians of The Bronze Band being a bard, while the other might be a lesser bard apprentice (I've totally NOT done that! Nope! Not at all! Laughing). What I am highlighting here though is a not persons for units from a national army with problems getting even basic soldiers, let alone individuals of one of the less common adventurer classes, but a "mercenary" company renowned for having a large number of skilled adventurer class individuals. I can imagine the best representation of involving a bard directly in such a military application would be as part of a more rag-tag mercenary company filled with all manner of "questionable characters" where a more ribald bard would fit the bill oh so well, bolstering friends to laughter/bravery and inciting foes to rage. I could totally see Gellor doing this among a force of Bandit Kingdom scum. Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cebrion wrote:
...A unit musician is just a person with few ranks of music skill. A bard is something so far beyond that it isn't even comparable...

...ah! In our mundane world, there's no alternative...​

Cebrion wrote:
...Also, I operate on the the assumption that bards are not very common...


-I calculated that there wouldn't be quite enough bards to go around, too. Some would have to be mundane musicians. Based on the D&D 3.5 DMG and my guesstimates, about 0.393% of the male population would be bards, so about 1 out of every 250 male humans (voluntary or otherwise) would be bards every year. I assume that 1,373 males "come of age" every year, and that at least 1,135 of them end up in Archbaron Lexnol's army every year. That doesn't count foreigners, although relatively few bards would enlist, other than Bone March exiles (who do make up a large percentage of foreign recruits). It also doesn't count half-elves.

Cebrion wrote:
You can submit an article, but don't use fonts other than Times New Roman, and no formatting of any kind whatsoever...


-Not sure what you mean by formatting. I've just discovered that Word graphs don't work when I tried to add one to my discussion of bard percentages, above. Laughing Ouch. I'll put it in the Ratik thread as a test. Anyway, I thought I had a lot written, but what I really have are a lot of charts which will require explanation. I'm working on that. I might have to do a lot of converting. Double Ouch!
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While looking for endnoting stuff, I bumped into this quote (all CAPS mine for emphasis, ed. Chris NcNab, The Roman Army, p. 96.):

"Closely associated with the standards was the cornicen, a junior officer {more like an NCO, I think] who blew the cornu... When the troops charged into contact and raised their war cry (clamor), the cornicines blew their instruments so as to ENCOURGAE their commands and DISCOURAGE the enemy."

Hmmm. Maybe when a legionnaire became a cornicen, he was supposed to take a level in bard? Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamesdglick wrote:
Not sure what you mean by formatting. I've just discovered that Word graphs don't work when I tried to add one to my discussion of bard percentages, above. Laughing Ouch. I'll put it in the Ratik thread as a test. Anyway, I thought I had a lot written, but what I really have are a lot of charts which will require explanation. I'm working on that. I might have to do a lot of converting. Double Ouch!

Charts are some of the formatting that I mean, though so are fonts not supported by Canonfire! Many things just don't translate over well, if at all, and doing charts in html is not something i want to do. A simple workaround is to make a chart using a template, printscreen it, save the image as a jpeg/png, *CROP IT TO AN APPROPRIATE SIZE*, host that image on a site of your own, and then include a direct image link to it in your forum post/article in the right place. Easy peasy. Happy
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