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Greyhawk Calendar Project

 
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Windlass
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:57 pm    Post subject: Greyhawk Calendar Project Reply with quote

I have only been playing for about a year, however, it has become obvious that the calendars posted online (and even in the various books) are so full of errors as to be almost worthless.

I have begun compiling data in the form of medieval style illustrations for each day of the GH calendar, and here's my question ... given a holiday, what is the most important aspect of that holiday?

An example would be Readying 11, which is called "The Great Moon's Glory", but the descriptions say that is because Luna is full and Celene is new. But that is not correct. Luna is leaving the 3rd Quarter and is nearing New, while Celene is in the 1st Quarter.

The problem is that people appear to have been treating the Oerth system as if it was Liga-centric, rather than Oerth-centric. Unfortunately, the geometry and math of one system doesn't fit the other.

So, I'm left with moving holidays around. If I'm going to do that, then I'd like to do it properly.
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lamashtu
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saw your question in #greytalk earlier, glad you got your account here.

I don't have anything to contribute, other than to say that I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
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GreyMage
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also glad to happy to see a new 'face' here...

Your idea has real merit as years ago someone pointed out the discrepancy between being Liga- and Oerth-centric... cannot wait to see what you come up with.
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DMPrata
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to the Glossography, Luna is full and Celene is new on the 11th of Readying. I donít know where you see otherwise.
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Windlass
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The math doesnít work out. Thatís whatís wrong. After running a simulation of the system, it is clear that the Glossography is incorrect. No one apparently ever checked the math when writing the books.
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Windlass
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1923720840972813&set=a.101481479863434.3319.100000047481711&type=3

I hope this posts correctly. Itís meant to be the sample page for Readying 11, albeit without the text.


Last edited by Windlass on Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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grodog
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Windlass wrote:
The math doesnít work out. Thatís whatís wrong. After running a simulation of the system, it is clear that the Glossography is incorrect. No one apparently ever checked the math when writing the books.


IIRC the math changed between the Folio and the 1983 boxed set; we did discuss some aspects of these differences recently but I can't find it at the moment. Some of these may be the one I'm thinking of, but I'm off to bed to crash (still exhausted after GaryCon): https://www.google.com/search?q=moon+luna+celene+site%3Acanonfire.com&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

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Windlass
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of discussion of the moons and Liga as gods, but nothing I can see regarding the rotational mathematics of an OERTH centered system.
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Amesang
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This reminds me of my (small) attempt at making a Flanaess calendar:

http://dnd.schadenfreudestudios.com/books/greyhawk/calendar%20%28greyhawk%29.pdf

Öwhich also reminded me of the discrepancy of Celene's phases due to it appearing full at every holy week, giving it an inconsistent set of weeks between phasesó3/3/3/4.

Could it be possible that Luna has a somewhat oblong orbit? Circular for ĺ of the time, but shunted further away for the remaining ľ? (Wouldn't be the weirdest celestial phenomena is Greyspace; kind of got the urge to draw a "Spectre-chan.")

Speaking of such things, if I may askÖ when was the "Day of the Great Signing?" I know it was in Harvester, 584CY, but I don't recall ever hearing what day it was heldóif I had to choose I'd go with Godsday on the 4th of the month, since the waxing of Celene and the waning of Luna makes me think of two opposing forces coming together.
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Windlass
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked at the calendar pages you posted. Having done the math, and plotted out the orbits, the discrepancies come up not because either moon has an oblong orbit, but because Liga moves.

Think of each moon as racing along a track, and Liga is at the finish line. Liga keeps moving the finish line, slower than either moon is moving, but moving the line nonetheless.

It takes Luna less time than Celene to catch up to the line, but it still distorts the phases for each moon. So much so that the phases are not regular. By that I mean that a moon is not always full or new (or anything) on a Godsday.

In fact, on Coldeven 25, Luna is actually in its 1st Quarter, and Celene is in its 3rd Quarter.

Iím about 91 pages into the illustrations for the book at the moment. Posting pictures to this forum is a bit of a pain, but Iíll be posting pages on Facebook, if anyone is on there. Iím Ricky Maveety. Iíll post CE 25 if you want to see it.
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grodog
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Windlass wrote:
Iím about 91 pages into the illustrations for the book at the moment. Posting pictures to this forum is a bit of a pain, but Iíll be posting pages on Facebook, if anyone is on there. Iím Ricky Maveety. Iíll post CE 25 if you want to see it.


Shot you a PM on FB :D

Allan.
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Windlass
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got it!
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Kirt
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Windlass wrote:
It takes Luna less time than Celene to catch up to the line, but it still distorts the phases for each moon. So much so that the phases are not regular.


Nearly two decades ago I worked with Gary Holian to come up with a calendar of eclipses for Oerth (sun and both moons). My memory of it is appropriately weak, but I remember one of my first conclusions being that the phases of the moons could not be caused by light from Liga, so I had to invent a different assumption.

Your difficulty with the math may be because you are assuming that Liga is causing the phases of the moon the way our sun causes the phases of Earth's moon.
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Windlass
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirt wrote:
Windlass wrote:
It takes Luna less time than Celene to catch up to the line, but it still distorts the phases for each moon. So much so that the phases are not regular.


Nearly two decades ago I worked with Gary Holian to come up with a calendar of eclipses for Oerth (sun and both moons). My memory of it is appropriately weak, but I remember one of my first conclusions being that the phases of the moons could not be caused by light from Liga, so I had to invent a different assumption.

Your difficulty with the math may be because you are assuming that Liga is causing the phases of the moon the way our sun causes the phases of Earth's moon.


Interesting. Can you give me a citation as to where the light comes from? If Liga is not causing the phases of the moons, then it can't be causing day or night either, in which case, of what use is it? Not that it has to have a use, but I'm curious.

And, just so you know, I'm not having any problem at all with the math. It's sort of my thing. The problem I am having is that people haven't applied the math properly to the issue before. They basically took the geometry from the festival days and then tried to shoehorn it into a regular pattern in a non light emitting body centric system.
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Kirt
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Windlass wrote:

Interesting. Can you give me a citation as to where the light comes from? If Liga is not causing the phases of the moons, then it can't be causing day or night either...


No citation - as I said, the idea that the phases of the moons were not caused by Liga was my invention, not something I read. I'm not sure what I came up with (the original file is on a 3.5" floppy) but I think I might have said the moons are illuminated by proximity to the constellation of Richfest and de-illuminated by proximity to the constellation of Needfest, and that this radiation passes through them rather than being blocked like light would be blocked. Maybe.

As for your claim that the light that causes day and night on Oerth CAN'T be different from what causes the phases of the moon - why not? If you want to have real world physics controlling moon phases, go ahead - but I don't think there are any canon sources that explicitly say that it is sunlight that causes the phases of the moons - that's your assumption.

We are agreed that the numbers / dates given for the cycles of the moon do not match their phases as described based on the assumption that it is sunlight that is causing the phases. You are choosing to change the dates based on your assumption that moon phases and daylight have a consistent cause, I chose to (I think) keep the phases as listed and change the assumption about what was causing them. I don't see one approach as being inherently more valid than the other.

Windlass wrote:

And, just so you know, I'm not having any problem at all with the math. It's sort of my thing. The problem I am having is that people haven't applied the math properly to the issue before. They basically took the geometry from the festival days and then tried to shoehorn it into a regular pattern in a non light emitting body centric system.


I didn't mean to imply that you couldn't do the math required. When I said "your difficulty with the math" I simply meant your difficulty in accepting the consequences that follow from the math which you are perfectly capable of doing.
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Windlass
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got it. You made something up. I'll stick with what is canon in the books (such as the rotation of Luna, Celene, and Liga), that is the basis for the rest of the stuff. It is easy to calculate the eclipse times, sunset and sunrise, and other celestial events based on that, and since there are known errors in the existing calendars, I feel less awful about correcting them.

I'm just not one to stick a magical bandaid on something that is a solvable problem. I'm more of a math wonk, and the former seems (to me anyway, as an easy way out).

So really I'm looking for more information on how the holidays would be set under a system that actually works at more than just the festivals. I'm about half of the way through the book with the artwork and research into eclipses and meanings of holidays.

Also doing an animation that looks like it will turn out pretty well.

Thanks for your input.
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Icarus
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:23 am    Post subject: Re: Moon Charts and Calendars Reply with quote

So, I'm not really sure how you're doing your math, and I don't know what kind of model you're using, but, I think that somehow, your model is coming up with positions or whatever that aren't reflecting what we know is canon.

The way these things go, for me personally, is that if there's something in the books that I don't understand, it's not going to be that I change the information to suit me, I'm going to change my PoV so that it lines up with the books. Rather than change the dates, I think we ought to try maybe, like, starting with the moons in the phases that they are stated, and tryin gto figure out how we can work a system that would put the moons in the proper phases. Instead of trying to figure out why it's wrong, perhaps we can work toward figuring out how it works so that it's right.

Here's another moon chart that may help the conversation, since we're having a difficult time envisioning the topic.
Cick the image to see a larger version. ... or click here.


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