Username Password
   or Create an Account
HomeForumsFAQArticlesReviewsDownloadsLinksTop 20Feedback
 Features
 
Greyhawk Wiki

 
Canonfire :: View topic - Lolth Then & Now
Lolth Then & Now

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Skech
Journeyman Greytalker


Joined: Feb 01, 2005
Posts: 151
Location: Columbus, Ohio

PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:13 pm    Post subject: Lolth Then & Now Reply with quote

I'm old enough to remember when the D1-3, and Q1 modules were new. Lolth was a demon prince(ss). Much later she became a goddess seemingly off-camera between editions. Is there a canon story behind her elevation to goddess-hood? Who was involved? Did it originally happen on Oerth, or on Toril and then retroactively inserted back to Oerth?

How is she represented in your game? Demon or deity? Or both? How do demon princes bestow spells to their clerics (if they have any) and what are their limitations?

Please and thank you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rasgon
GreySage


Joined: Aug 03, 2001
Posts: 2934
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Lolth Then & Now Reply with quote

Skech wrote:
I'm old enough to remember when the D1-3, and Q1 modules were new. Lolth was a demon prince(ss). Much later she became a goddess seemingly off-camera between editions. Is there a canon story behind her elevation to goddess-hood? Who was involved? Did it originally happen on Oerth, or on Toril and then retroactively inserted back to Oerth?


All demon princes were treated as lesser gods in 1e, which is why Lolth was listed as one in Deities & Demigods (1980), along with other similar beings (Demogorgon, Orcus, Juiblex, Yeenoghu, Asmodeus, Dispater, Baalzebul, Geryon, Ssendam, Ygorl, Bahamut, Tiamat, etc.). See NONHUMAN DEITIES, page 105 of the 1st printing.

Q1 also (page 32) and the Queen of the Spiders supermodule (page 122) notes that Lolth is a lesser goddess and has the powers of a lesser deity if the DM chooses to give them to her, although D3 did not.

2nd edition introduced the new rank of "intermediate deity" and some lesser gods were reclassified as that if they seemed suitably important, Lolth included.

Thus, there was no elevation required, since she's pretty much always been considered a goddess. The retcon was that much later, starting with 2nd edition's Iuz the Evil (which included statistics for Pazrael and Graz'zt), it was decided that some demon princes weren't gods.

With the retcon that claimed there were demon princes who weren't divine (especially as the enhanced statistics for gods in later editions made them too powerful for mortals to fight) it was retconned that Lolth's ascension to divinity was recent. See 3rd edition's Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss, page 80, which notes that Lolth's long-held rivalry with Zuggtmoy ended when Lolth recently became a deity.

What happened recently to increase Lolth's power? All those invasions of other worlds in Q1. While she was defeated on Oerth, on many other worlds she was successful, and her power grew exponentially. One important victory was slaying and drawing divine blood from the god Abrogard, once the primary god of evil on the world of Guldor, home of the dwarven kingdom of Maldev (see Fiendish Codex I, page 125).

Quote:
How do demon princes bestow spells to their clerics (if they have any) and what are their limitations?


According to Planes of Chaos (and other 1-2e sources) clerics gain 1st and 2nd level spells through their faith alone, not needing deities or other powers to grant them spells. Demon princes can send true tanar'ri to grant 3rd level spells to their priests. They can grant 4th level spells only in person. Only the greatest Abyssal lords, like Demogorgon, Yeenoghu, Juiblex, and Lolth, who were all considered to be gods as well as tanar'ri in 2e, can grant higher-level magics to their clerics.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Lanthorn
GreySage


Joined: Sep 09, 2009
Posts: 2422
Location: SW WA state (Highvale)

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

She is both a fiend and a goddess in my games. I have used Monster Mythology to great effect in terms of running her clergy and what she grants them.

-Lanthorn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tarelton
Adept Greytalker


Joined: Apr 11, 2009
Posts: 322
Location: Aspedri

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought R.A. Salvatore engineered her apotheosis through book sales...

too soon?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CruelSummerLord
Adept Greytalker


Joined: Apr 26, 2002
Posts: 361
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me, many planar lords such as the arch-devils, demon princes, oinodaemon, the lords of the elemental planes, and other such deities can all grant spells if they are worshiped by mortals, as the belief and faith the mortals have with the powerful being allows the being to grant them spells. Gods do this most often, but other beings that are bound to their planes can do it too.

So Lolth is a demon, albeit one that cultivates worshipers and grants them spells the way Orcus, Demogorgon and other demons can. The Horned Empire worships Asmodeus and Mephistopheles along with Nerull the Reaper.

The irony is that these planar lords are often much easier for mortals to fight and even permanently destroy than true gods are. The reason the evil gods don't simply wipe out the arch-devils, demon lords or the oinodaemon and rule the lower planes themselves is because all these latter creatures were all vomited up by the Dark Lord, Dread Tharizdun, during the Imprisoning War. They became directly tied to the planes of evil, and while their might is only a very faint and pale shadow of the the Dark Lord's, their connection to him is enough to keep the gods of evil from destroying them. Mortal beings are under no such strictures, and while it's extremely difficult to do, they can permanently destroy a demon lord, arch-devil or oinodaemon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mindseye
Journeyman Greytalker


Joined: Oct 09, 2014
Posts: 53

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tarelton wrote:
I thought R.A. Salvatore engineered her apotheosis through book sales...

too soon?
rolleyes Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cebrion
Black Hand of Oblivion
Black Hand of Oblivion


Joined: Feb 16, 2003
Posts: 3713
Location: So. Cal

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep. Driz'zt Apotheosis. Still a demon prince in my campaign, and demon princes are on par with various levels of gods.
_________________
- Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Raymond
Adept Greytalker


Joined: Oct 07, 2008
Posts: 343

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:33 am    Post subject: Clerics Without Dieties Reply with quote

I like how this quote:
Quote:

According to Planes of Chaos (and other 1-2e sources) clerics gain 1st and 2nd level spells through their faith alone, not needing deities or other powers to grant them spells


allows a reason for the clerics of B3 and B4 able to get spells without the monsters they are worshiping providing the spells.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Raymond
Adept Greytalker


Joined: Oct 07, 2008
Posts: 343

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:35 am    Post subject: Law, etc. Reply with quote

It also works for clerics that worship a philosophy such as Law, etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Canonfire phpBB2 theme by Jakob Persson (http://www.eddingschronicles.com).
Powered by phpBB © 2001 phpBB Group
All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Stone textures by Patty Herford
Ported for PHP-Nuke by nukemods.com
Forums ©


Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!

PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
Page Generation: 0.31 Seconds