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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:30 am  
    Night Below in Greyhawk

    Hi

    Any ideas about where is good place to run Night Below in GW?

    I tried to use search on this forum but found nothing.

    Thanks
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:29 pm  

    I've thought of Night Below as part of the "Sunndi Cycle" of adventures that would include -

    (1) Tomb of Horrors (the Original);

    (2) Night Below; and

    (3) Return to theTomb of Horrors.
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    GVD
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    Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:46 pm  
    Where to run it in Gamers Workshop?

    Seriously, the better place to search for this topic is the Greytalk Archives. There has been much discussion in the past about placing Night Below and you should find several feasible locations quickly.

    ~Scott C.
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    Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:30 pm  
    Re: Where to run it in Gamers Workshop?

    Scottenkainen wrote:
    Seriously, the better place to search for this topic is the Greytalk Archives. There has been much discussion in the past about placing Night Below and you should find several feasible locations quickly.

    ~Scott C.


    What is the "Greytalk Archives"?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:17 pm  
    Re: Where to run it in Gamers Workshop?

    Vasiliy wrote:
    What is the "Greytalk Archives"?


    Greytalk is a mailing list that Greyhawk fans frequented before Canonfire went live in 2000(?) or 2001 (?). There is an archive of all the old posts and you can access this to the left side of your screen. Unfortunately, Greytalk is now silent more often than there is conversation and when there are messages, they are often off topic. Greytalk is Greyhawk's past. Canonfire is Greyhawk's future. IMO. Smile
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    GVD
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    Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:32 pm  
    Bah!

    Hijacking someone else's thread to dis Greytalk? What a typical Canonfire trick. Wink

    ~Scott C.
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    Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:43 am  

    I don't think GVD or anyone else on this board would ever intentionally do such a thing. lol Happy
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:03 am  

    I would place Night Below in either Sterich or the Yoemanry myself, I seem to recall a discussion that it was originaly going to be a greyhawk product placed in one of those two locations, but a descision was made to take it out of greyhawk and genericize it sometime during the production process.
    Novice

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    Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:40 pm  

    The Greyhawk Modules Locations Index (see to the left under "Special Features") puts it under Haranshire in the Hold of the Sea Princes :

    NB1-3 - Night Below ( Based on the location of the Sunless Sea in those modules and the lands surrounding the Hellfurnaces which it is underneath, the terrain of Haranshire most closely resembles that found near Melkot. Note that after the wars, Melkot and environs are now part of the Yeomanry, while before them they still part of the Hold of the Sea Princes.)

    Not an official TSR ruling or anything, but it makes sense to me.

    - Wilfrick
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    Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:48 pm  

    I particularly like the Sunndi idea. Night Below was a Sargent piece, right?

    GVD is, imo, prolly right in regards to Greytalk ---> Canonfire. The evidence is in the activity.

    The GreyTalk archives rock, though.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:04 pm  

    Looks like I don't have to start a new thread. Smile

    I just bought Night Below, and I'm still studying it. I bought it because the The Greyhawk Modules by Location Index ( http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=6 ) places Haranshire in the Flaneaess, but the backgound gives no detailed suggestions as to where to place it. The internetdoesn't have any suggestions either, but does have them for Forgotten Realms and Mystara (also mentioned as potential locations by Carl Sargent). The Haranshire map is only 56 miles north-south and 84 miles east-west, so the major features on the map don't necessarilyhave to jive with features on the Darlene map i.e, the rivers could be interpreted as large streams, the hills and swamps could be local, etc.

    The Greyhawk Modules by Location Index places Haranshire near in the Sea Princes near the Hellfurnaces, probably due to Haranshire's proximity to the Underdark. Maldin (http://melkot.com/locations/underdark/underdark-region.html )accepts this, and links it to the AD&D 1.5 Dungeoneer Survivor's Guide as well, so I'm keeping an open mind.

    Milborne, Thurmaster, and Count Parlfrey's Castle are on the north side of the Churnett River, which seems to be a full river by Darlene map standards, and that river is the Hool/Javan, then Haranshire is on the Keoish side. Haranshire's apparent lack of slavery also indicates this. No mention of Olman slave insurrections or the Scarlet Brotherhood south of the river indicates a pre-Greyhawk Wars setting, which is fine by me (current scenarios in my campaignare up to Coldeven 579 CY at the latest), but is a little odd given Night Below's AD&D2 origin. Oh well. The dominating alignment of Milborne seems to be in the LG to N wedge (pp. 13-16), and Thurmaster seems to cluster around N (p. 17). St. Cuthbert's seems to be a common faith (p. 15, 50)Maybe there's anUnderground Railroad for runaway slaves (note: I'd need a fantasy appropriate name) operating in Milborne?

    The section "Milborne and Beyond" (p. 12) mentions the importance of Haranshire's lead and copper exports. Keoland isn't listed as a copper exporter, nor are the Sea Princes. This could be explained if the exports aren't large enough froma national level to be significant, although it's implied that they should be. Another possibility is that Haranshire is not part of Keoland, but an independent place not big eneough to have its own listing in the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer or Guide to the World of Greyhawk Volume III. This would explain why a county, even a thinly populated one, isn't listed amongst Keoland's provinces. Perhaps Keoland and the Sea Princes both seek to annex Haranshire, or at least prevent the other from doing so. Keoland and the Brotherhood fought after the later's occupation of the Sea Princes. I wonder how the area would fare?

    I assume that the Oldscutt River is an unlisted large stream by Darlene map standards. Incidentally, the Oldscutt's damming at Eelhold seems to explain why Haranshire exists, and it's recent construction (after Keoland's expansionist phase) might explain Haranshire's independence (Niole Dra apparently forgot about Nume Eor and Salinmoor at this time).

    The section "The Orcs Below the World" (p. 64) mentions that there are Dwarves to the north (off the map). That would fit.



    As for other locations, these list copper as major exports, but I rule them out: Snow Barbarians (doesn't have a Suel barbarian at all); Ice Barbarians (ditto); Ket (no western, or form our perspective, Eastern, feel); Ull (ditto); Perrenland (no standing militia, see p. 12); The Pale (no theocratic elements, plus St. Cuthbert seems a predominate faith). Blackmmor doesn't seem right, either. I also get a warmer vibe from Harranshire.

    Most of Gran March, like Perrenland, is heavily militarized, but Harranshire could be somewhere in The Cup (between Gran March and Geoff, where Orlane is). Southern Aerdi could work, if it's one of the non-evil (Carwend) lands. The County of Ulek, Idee, and Almor could also work, pre-Greyhawk Wars.
    GreySage

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    Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:06 pm  

    Living Greyhawk placed Haranshire in the Yeomanry.



    So did Anna:



    While entry for the Yeomanry doesn't list copper as one of its exports, I think the resources are just general trends, and not necessarily comprehensive (and you can always change the mine to silver if you prefer).

    Night Below mentioned a group of marauding lizard men under the command of a ferocious lizard king who devastated Thurmaster; this is probably the same group that threatened County Eor on the other side of the Javan River during the events of I2 Tomb of the Lizard King.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:56 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Living Greyhawk placed Haranshire in the Yeomanry.



    So did Anna:



    While entry for the Yeomanry doesn't list copper as one of its exports, I think the resources are just general trends, and not necessarily comprehensive (and you can always change the mine to silver if you prefer).

    Night Below mentioned a group of marauding lizard men under the command of a ferocious lizard king who devastated Thurmaster; this is probably the same group that threatened County Eor on the other side of the Javan River during the events of I2 Tomb of the Lizard King.


    -Arrgh! I tried checking Anna's maps, but had problems getting in. Strange that I couldn't find anything newer.

    Hmmm... I thought Harranshire seemed a little too "feudal" to be in the Yeomanry. Oh well. It does solve most of the other issues, though. I'll let the copper thing slide.
    GreySage

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    Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:19 am  

    The fact that there's a local count is the biggest issue for me, but I assume it's a Keoish title the family continues to use even though it has no legal weight since the Yeomanry's independence.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:44 pm  

    When I wrote "feudal", "feudal/manorial" would have been more accurate. It is true that Carman and Parlfray are often described as "owning" the lands in Haranshire, but that doesn't necessarily mean a feudal/manorial system; the people seem to be free tenants, but you'd expect a place in the Yeomanry to have more free yeoman farmers who own their own land.

    On to Rasgon's comment:

    rasgon wrote:
    The fact that there's a local count is the biggest issue for me, but I assume it's a Keoish title the family continues to use even though it has no legal weight since the Yeomanry's independence.


    Squire Carman is described as Count Parlfray's representative (I don't have the text with me, but it's in the description of Milborne- pp. 13-16 according to my notes?) is described as having the power to determine taxes and levy fines, although the people of Millborne consider his authority to be relatively light (or words to that effect). Ditto the guy in Thurmaster, whose name and title I forget. Count Parlfray also seems to have authority over all of Harranshire. It is possible that Carman and the guy in Thurmaster may be the elected Spokesmen for 144 (Milborne's population is something like 175, and Thurmaster's 100, not counting others the villages?), and Count Parlfray might simply be next elected guy up the chain. The guy in Thurmaster seems a little out of control, for example, and it just doesn't have that "feel".

    A few minor nitpicks:

    In the first scenario "Capture Them Alive!" (pp. 10-11), most of the "bandits" are described as dupes who have been led to believe that the PCs are dangerous necromancers coming to attack Harranshire. Why make them NE in alignment? They could be non-evil, even good. The PCs would be killing not-so-evil guys, but so it goes.

    The deep Thornwood is described as being infested by giant spiders, but they're not listed as a possibility in the random encounter chart.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:41 pm  

    I've always liked LG's placement of Night Below and, canonically, it would have to be somewhere in that region anyway to be within striking distance of the Sunless Sea.

    The second best placement, IMO, was suggested long ago, probably on a listserv. I only have a print out that I cut/paste without the author to credit, but someone noticed a lot of similarities between Night Below and towns in the FtA Campaign Book that Sargent wrote a few years earlier. To summarize briefly:
    1) Eelhold is very similar to One Ford (both harvest eels and make them into jelly)
    2) Shiraz the Swammay Ranger sounds like a Gnarley Swammay.
    3) Count Parlfray = Lord Lockswell
    4) Milborne = Five Oaks (river, mill, similar populations, Rastifer's store = Malco Frump's Trading Post).
    5) Thurmaster = the village to the east of Lockswell Manor on the GoF map (the trail between here and Five Oak is long enough for some side adventures in NB book 1).
    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:21 pm  

    vestcoat wrote:
    I've always liked LG's placement of Night Below and, canonically, it would have to be somewhere in that region anyway to be within striking distance of the Sunless Sea.


    If you place the adventure in the Domain of Greyhawk, you could use the Lake of Ebon in place of the Sunless Sea.

    On Maldin's map, there are two subterranean bodies of water called the Sunless Sea.
    CF Admin

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    Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:38 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    vestcoat wrote:
    I've always liked LG's placement of Night Below and, canonically, it would have to be somewhere in that region anyway to be within striking distance of the Sunless Sea.


    If you place the adventure in the Domain of Greyhawk, you could use the Lake of Ebon in place of the Sunless Sea.

    On Maldin's map, there are two subterranean bodies of water called the Sunless Sea.


    There's a third mentioned in passing in Wolfgang Baur's Empire of the Ghouls project from 2007-2008, which is a sequel to the Dungeon #70 "Kingdom of the Ghouls" adventure.

    For some more info on that project, see https://grodog.blogspot.com/2018/09/module-challenge-1-empire-of-the-ghouls.html (and it's apparently being redone/expanded for 5e too per https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/deepmagic/empire-of-the-ghouls-a-5th-edition-campaign-vs-the too).

    Allan.
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    GreySage

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    Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:16 pm  

    grodog wrote:
    There's a third mentioned in passing in Wolfgang Baur's Empire of the Ghouls project from 2007-2008, which is a sequel to the Dungeon #70 "Kingdom of the Ghouls" adventure.


    I combined the maps from "Kingdom of the Ghouls," "Night Below," and the GDQ series a while ago, assuming they all referred to the same Sunless Sea:

    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:19 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Living Greyhawk placed Haranshire in the Yeomanry.

    Night Below mentioned a group of marauding lizard men under the command of a ferocious lizard king who devastated Thurmaster; this is probably the same group that threatened County Eor on the other side of the Javan River during the events of I2 Tomb of the Lizard King.


    Wow! Night Below is one of my favorite campaigns and Tomb of the Lizard King is a favorite adventure of mine, but I never put those two together. The linkage is perfect and I always put Haranshire in the Yeomanry as well. Glad this topic/thread was resurrected.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 am  

    xo42 wrote:
    ...The linkage is perfect and I always put Haranshire in the Yeomanry as well...


    -I don't know. Rasgon mentioned the nobility issue (which, as he points out, can be worked around), but I've always imagined the Yeomanry as an idealized Merry Old Elizabethan England without the hereditary stuff. The Yeomans' skill-at-arms has always been a key element going back to the original 1980 Folio. Where's the archery practice every Godsday afternoon? There is the element of the background where a Hobgoblin tribe attacked Haranshire had ended up on the wrong end of a lop-sided kill ratio (I don't have it with me, so no page reference). I'll assume that the results imply the means.

    xo42 wrote:
    ... Glad this topic/thread was resurrected.


    -You are welcome. Wink Laughing
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:03 pm  

    I like the Sea Princes best for Night Below.

    I imagine that Haranshire is a relatively cool upland region, though not so elevated as Beghof (from the Sentinel and the Gauntlet, UK 2 and 3).
    Like Berghof, it lacks the slave economy of the coastal lowlands and islands.
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    Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:48 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    grodog wrote:
    There's a third mentioned in passing in Wolfgang Baur's Empire of the Ghouls project from 2007-2008, which is a sequel to the Dungeon #70 "Kingdom of the Ghouls" adventure.


    I combined the maps from "Kingdom of the Ghouls," "Night Below," and the GDQ series a while ago, assuming they all referred to the same Sunless Sea:



    Love it! :D

    Did you ever incorporate the Empire of the Ghouls materials, Rip?

    Allan.
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    GreySage

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    Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:59 am  

    grodog wrote:
    Did you ever incorporate the Empire of the Ghouls materials, Rip?


    No, I never saw those, though I'm familiar with Wolfgang Baur's Midgard setting, which incorporates it.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:13 pm  

    [quote="grodog"]
    rasgon wrote:
    grodog wrote:
    There's a third mentioned in passing in Wolfgang Baur's Empire of the Ghouls project from 2007-2008, which is a sequel to the Dungeon #70 "Kingdom of the Ghouls" adventure.


    I combined the maps from "Kingdom of the Ghouls," "Night Below," and the GDQ series a while ago, assuming they all referred to the same Sunless Sea:

    Allan.



    This is so awesome grodog, thanks!
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