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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:39 pm  

    Kirt wrote:
    People are throwing the words "tribe" and "clan" around as if they were interchangeable. Perhaps in common usage they are, but my take on their general use in the social sciences is that they are different...
    Kirt


    Nice treatise, but the only post I saw in this whole thread that had the word clan in it was Gene's, and that was in reference to a clan that was part of a tribe.
    Regardless of what else it can mean, one commonly accepted definition of tribe is a group of clans living under a chief or leader, and for orcs, I think that works fine.

    Personally, I don't like the tribes divided by what god they venerate concept, as I never considered them to be an overly religious lot.
    I have each shaman/witch doctor call on whichever deity seems to fit the bill for any given occasion.
    Scott
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    Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:26 pm  

    ScottG wrote:

    Nice treatise, but the only post I saw in this whole thread that had the word clan in it was Gene's, and that was in reference to a clan that was part of a tribe.


    True, but I was also referring to the WoTC thread referenced above, which was titled The Euroz Clan, and in which at least five different people used the word clan, including yourself. Although you seem to be using it only in response to abysslin's usage.

    ScottG wrote:

    Personally, I don't like the tribes divided by what god they venerate concept, as I never considered them to be an overly religious lot.
    I have each shaman/witch doctor call on whichever deity seems to fit the bill for any given occasion.


    You can do what you want in your campaign. I maintain that I recall orcs as being presented semi-officially (in Dragon) as having their political divisions based on religion. This is in contrast to the goblins and hobgoblins, for example, whose situation is more like what you describe.
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    Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:21 am  

    More Sargent tribe names from ItE:

    Faithful Bloods
    Bonescrapers


    both sub-tribes of Sargent's Celbit tribe, but they seem more in line with Gygaxian orc tribe names at least.
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    Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:16 am  

    Bloodied Blade Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    WGS1 - 40,42

    Bloody Fist Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    DUN#73 - 64

    Bloody Head Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    LGG - 11

    Bonescraper Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    WGR5 - 19

    Broken Bone Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    LGG - 11
    UA - 119

    Celbit Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    WGR5 - 17,19,25,29,30,32,33,44,53,78,79,80,91

    Cracked Skull Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    DRG#167 - 12
    SLV - 83

    Crooked Claw Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    A1-4 - 52
    DRG#167 - 12
    SLV - 83

    Crooked Tooth Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    SLV - 73

    Dazark Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    WGR5 - 55,56,58

    Death Moon Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    DRG#57 - 15
    DRG#63 - 16
    LGG - 11,74
    TAB - 125
    UA - 119

    Deathbringer Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    SLV - 63

    Dripping Blade Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    LGG - 11

    Eiger Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    WGR5 - 51

    Eurok Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    IVID

    Euroz Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    DRG#293 - 89
    IVID
    WGR4 - 84

    Evil Eye Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    LGG - 11
    UA - 119

    Faarsh Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    GW:ADV - 28

    Faithful Blood Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    WGR5 - 19

    Flaming Skull Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    DRG#167 - 12
    SLV - 83

    Haggnoh Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    GW:ADV - 28

    Jagged Blade Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    DRG#167 - 12
    SLV - 83

    Jebli Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    WGR5 - 17,19,27,29,30,44,52,57,78,79,80

    Jublizoi, Hill Renders Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    FTAC - 26

    Jukko Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    GW:ADV - 28

    Karaki Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    GW:ADV - 28

    Kazgund Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    WGR5 - 17,19,33,36,37,41,43
    WGR6 - 16,18,25

    Keiger (Orc) [CLN]
    WGR4 - 84

    Leprous Hand Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    LGG - 11

    Neckbreaker Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    SLV - 63

    Nedla Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    GW:ADV - 15
    SLV - 109
    TSB - 5

    Night Hunter Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    SLV - 63

    Red Fang Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    DRG#167 - 12
    SLV - 83

    Rotting Eye, Orcs of the (Tribe)[CLN]
    LGG - 11
    WG4 - 8

    Saltburner Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    DRG#167 - 12
    SLV - 83,97

    Shadowmoon Tribe (Shadowdoom)(Orc)[CLN]
    DRG#167 - 12
    SLV - 83

    Spinning Sword Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    SLV - 63

    Thunderous Hate Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    SLV - 63

    Uroz Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    WGR5 - 36,40,41,43,52,55,57,80

    Urzun Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    LGG - 59
    WGR5 - 17,19,20,21,22,23,40,44,46,47,66,78,79,80,81,90
    94
    WGR6 - 10,16,24,25

    Vile Rune Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    DRG#57 - 14
    DRG#63 - 16
    LGG - 11
    UA - 121

    Vrunik Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    GW:ADV - 28
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:25 pm  
    Chainmail and Monster Manual

    I logged:

    http://zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2016/10/gygaxian-orc-tribes.html
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    Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:39 pm  
    I think they were inheriting stuff from Platt's Game

    https://www.enworld.org/threads/evidence-chainmail-had-material-from-dave-arneson.668205/

    Platt's game was set in Middle-Earth and I think that's how Chainmail, D&d and Blackmoor got some Tolkien references in their publications
    GreySage

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    Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:15 pm  

    I don't remember the names or have my reference books handy, but I don't believe anyone has mentioned the names tribes of orcs (2) mentioned in the City of Greyhawk boxed set lairing in the hills near Maure Castle or the tribe dwelling in an ancient ruined city in the mountains between Tehn and Stonefist. I believe the latter was mentioned in the Five Shall Be One modules, among other places.

    SirXaris
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    Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:20 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    I don't remember the names or have my reference books handy, but I don't believe anyone has mentioned the names tribes of orcs (2) mentioned in the City of Greyhawk boxed set lairing in the hills near Maure Castle or the tribe dwelling in an ancient ruined city in the mountains between Tehn and Stonefist. I believe the latter was mentioned in the Five Shall Be One modules, among other places.

    SirXaris


    I did index both of those so I must have missed these references.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:39 am  

    cwslyclgh wrote:
    We know that Zief has a high orc population (Where they are even somewhat accepted in society), but do we know what tribe or tribes the orcs belong to?


    -I'm guessing that most of the Ziefi orcs are unaffiliated.


    Kirt wrote:
    ... I maintain that I recall orcs as being presented semi-officially (in Dragon) as having their political divisions based on religion...


    -I forget the issues, but initially, Gyagx wrote a letter to the editor giving Moore some praise for his demi-human and humanoid articles, but also some caveats. Later, in a "Sorcerer's Scroll" column (IIRC), Gygax gave Moore's articles his full blessing for use with Oerth. That would include different tribes having different patrons.


    Kirt wrote:
    ...My interpretation would be
    Vile Rune = Luthic, goddess of caves, healing, females (the rune is a rune of protection and fertility placed at cave entrances and birthing chambers)...


    -I figured that the "vile" rune would be a vagina symbol (for Luthic), but:

    http://zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2016/10/gygaxian-orc-tribes.html

    ...Scruby Fantasy 30mm minis (1975): Per Gygax on Enworld (10/8/07), "Jack Scruby began casting orcs, so we had real miniatures for them -- the Orcs of the Vile Rune whose symbol was a fist with a raised digit."...

    ...still a fertility symbol, but from the other side. Wink


    Kirt wrote:
    ...I would propose that the Bloody Head and Rotting Eye belong to other orc dieties not detailed in Unearthed Arcana. Possibly, one or both of them might be minor clans whose shamans actually worship Iuz as a diety...


    -One of Iuz's unholy symbols is a bloody skull. Rotting eye could a variant for Yurtrus.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:04 am  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Kirt wrote:
    ...I would propose that the Bloody Head and Rotting Eye belong to other orc dieties not detailed in Unearthed Arcana. Possibly, one or both of them might be minor clans whose shamans actually worship Iuz as a diety...


    -One of Iuz's unholy symbols is a bloody skull. Rotting eye could a variant for Yurtrus.

    Agreed with Iuz for the Bloody Skull orcs. I went with Incabulos for the Rotting Eye tribe; his symbol is the eye of possession (an eye in a possession rune).
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:26 am  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    ...I forget the issues, but initially, Gyagx wrote a letter to the editor giving Moore some praise for his demi-human and humanoid articles, but also some caveats. Later, in a "Sorcerer's Scroll" column (IIRC), Gygax gave Moore's articles his full blessing for use with Oerth. That would include different tribes having different patrons...


    -EG Gygax's letter to the editor was in Dragon #64, his recommendation of Moore's orc articles was in the "Sorcerer's Scroll", Dragon #71.


    JasonZavoda wrote:

    ...Dazark Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    WGR5 - 55,56,58...

    ...Haggnoh Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    GW:ADV - 28...

    ...Jublizoi, Hill Renders Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    FTAC - 26...

    Jukko Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    GW:ADV - 28

    Karaki Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    GW:ADV - 28

    Kazgund Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    WGR5 - 17,19,33,36,37,41,43
    WGR6 - 16,18,25

    Keiger (Orc) [CLN]
    WGR4 - 84

    ...Nedla Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    GW:ADV - 15
    SLV - 109
    TSB - 5...

    ...Urzun Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    LGG - 59
    WGR5 - 17,19,20,21,22,23,40,44,46,47,66,78,79,80,81,90
    94
    WGR6 - 10,16,24,25...

    ...Vrunik Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
    GW:ADV - 28


    -These are the Orcish names, which translate to the typical "Disturbing Adjective : Noun" pattern. Therefore, there's a lot of overlap on this list. Which ones?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:34 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    ...there's a lot of overlap on this list. Which ones?


    ...well, first: Jublizoi = Hill Renders (FTA Campaign Book, p. 26).

    The Celbit, which, coincidentally, also happens to be the Flann word for "kobold" Wink, "...were the first to flock to [Iuz's] service when he conquered this land, and were the most ready to greet him when he returned" (Iuz the Evil, p. 17). However, some Celbit (considered renegades) follow a leader who posseses the Torch of Gruumsh (p. 29), and presumably hold him as their primary patron, probably seeing Iuz as unworthy for whatever reason. I propose that those Celbit who follow Iuz be the Bloody Head tribe.

    I took a look at the article on Orcish in Dragon #75 on the outside that chance that Sargent may have used it for inspiration, or that something might be made of it just by coincidence. All I got was that "gar" in Garek Enkdal would mean "dig".
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