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    Canonfire :: View topic - Which moon is Sehanine associated with?
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    Which moon is Sehanine associated with?
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:35 pm  
    Which moon is Sehanine associated with?

    It sticks in my mind that she represents both moons but is more associated with Luna, but I can't tell if I made that up or read it somewhere.
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:46 pm  

    It's not specified anywhere officially, and you could argue that she's associated with both moons, but Sehanine and Celene are very similar-sounding names.

    As are Ehlonna and Luna ("Eh-Luna"). Ehlonna isn't officially called a moon goddess, but her unicorn horn symbol reminds me of a lunar crescent.

    Of course, Corellon Larethian has a more explicit lunar crescent symbol, and it makes sense that as the leader of the elven pantheon, Corellon would be the Mistress while Sehanine would be the Handmaiden.

    Also, the Moonarch of Sehanine is linked only to Celene (Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, 162: "The Moonarch appears only while Oerth’s lesser moon, Celene, is in full phase...").

    Celestian is also not too dissimilar a name from Celene or Sehanine, and I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine that Celestian is only the Oeridian aspect of a pan-racial deity of far journeys, dreams, the moons, and the stars.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:11 am  

    Since Corellon’s symbol is a blue quarter moon and Sehanine’s a milky crescent, I associate the former with Celene and the latter with Luna.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:38 am  

    DMPrata, is that because Celene is smaller and Luna larger? or is there something connecting milky color to Luna and blue to Celene?

    Rasgon, thanks for the information & imagination as always.
    GreySage

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    Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:59 am  

    Luna is silver and Celene is aquamarine in color.

    Monster Mythology says that Sehanine's symbol is a "full moon with a moonbow," the moonbow being a milky crescent that appears in an elf's eye when they're ready to move on to the Spindrift Isles. It doesn't specify the color of the full moon, but it states that a milky crescent may appear on the moon in nature if the elf is great in wisdom and accomplishment.

    Corellon's symbol is a crescent moon. I can't find a source that specifies its color.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:51 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Luna is silver and Celene is aquamarine in color.

    Monster Mythology says that Sehanine's symbol is a "full moon with a moonbow," the moonbow being a milky crescent that appears in an elf's eye when they're ready to move on to the Spindrift Isles. It doesn't specify the color of the full moon, but it states that a milky crescent may appear on the moon in nature if the elf is great in wisdom and accomplishment.

    Corellon's symbol is a crescent moon. I can't find a source that specifies its color.

    “Corellon’s clerics always wear a blue quarter-moon talisman....” (Deities & Demigods)

    I acknowledge that Sehanine’s “milky crescent” is subject to interpretation, but it certainly seemed to me not to be blue.
    GreySage

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    Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:42 pm  

    Ah yeah, I forgot to check Deities & Demigods. I looked in Monster Mythology and Demihuman Deities, where his symbol is a crescent moon of undefined color. It's depicted as silver in the 3e Player's Handbook.

    Here's the symbol of Corellon, from the 3e Player's Handbook:


    The moonbow is not itself blue, but the color of the full moon it overlaps might be (or blue-green, as Celene is supposed to be). It usually isn't depicted that way in illustrations, but it wouldn't be in the Realms or other worlds with only a single moon.

    Here's the symbol of Sehanine Moonbow, from 3e's Races of the Wild:

    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:12 am  

    I think another consideration is that the olvenfolk have their own names for the Dozenmonth of the moon, so they hold the 28-day cycle of Luna in some esteem. That seems a better fit to me for a moon goddess than one that only shows itself four times per year. Corellon still can be superior, but just further removed, so his moon’s appearances are more noteworthy.
    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:05 am  

    Would elves not use the titles Mistress and Handmaiden?

    DMPrata wrote:
    I think another consideration is that the olvenfolk have their own names for the Dozenmonth of the moon, so they hold the 28-day cycle of Luna in some esteem.


    The elven months, like those of other peoples of the Flanaess, are solar months, representing the sun passing through the 12 Lairs of the Zodiac. The lunar calendar is different, since Luna doesn't skip the festival weeks. There are 13 lunar months in a year (364/28=13), so it would be more of a Baker's Dozenmonth. The Olman and Touv calendars are lunar, as seasons and the cycle of Celene are less important in the tropics.
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    Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:39 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    The lunar calendar is different, since Luna doesn't skip the festival weeks. There are 13 lunar months in a year (364/28=13), so it would be more of a Baker's Dozenmonth.
    Hmm. Fair enough.
    But, that "13th" month is where the days for festival weeks "come from". ... accounted for or whatever.
    If that 13th month is divided into the four festival weeks, then the math isn't wrong, in that sense. (364/28=12+4)

    But, it's clear the festivals aren't really considered a "month".
    There's 12 lunar months, and four festivals.
    But, we can all those 4 weeks a month for math purposes.
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    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:00 am  

    Icarus wrote:
    But, that "13th" month is where the days for festival weeks "come from". ... accounted for or whatever.
    If that 13th month is divided into the four festival weeks, then the math isn't wrong, in that sense. (364/28=12+4)


    Yeah, the solar and lunar years are the same length. But the Elven month names (like the Common and Nomadic month names) follow the solar cycle, not the lunar cycle. If the elves were actually honoring Luna in their month names, they'd have 13 months in a year. For example, Diamondice would begin with the new moon on Needfest 4 and Yellowillow would begin with the new moon on Fireseek 25, and there'd have to be a 13th elven month after Lacysnows ended on Sunsebb 3 (Ladensnows?). But they have 12 months, like the number of Lairs of the Zodiac, because that way allows them to divide the calendar by the cycles of Celene, giving the Handmaiden a full week of the calendar four times a year to celebrate the four times she shows her full face, when the Moonarch of Sehanine appears.

    Quote:
    There's 12 lunar months, and four festivals.


    No. There are 13 lunar months. There are 12 solar months and four festivals.

    If the 12 solar months were also lunar months, Luna's phases would fall on the same day every month, and they don't. Luna is full on Fireseek 11, but in Ready'reat it isn't full until the 18th.

    A Guide to the World of Greyhawk muddies the waters by saying "The Great Moon (Luna) waxes and wanes in fixed cycles of 28 days each, upon which our months are based." It's true that solar months are also 28 days, but unless Luna hits the pause button on its phases for seven days at a time (which it doesn't, or its cycles wouldn't always be 28 days), Luna's cycles aren't the same thing as the calendar months, and "Dozenmonth of the moon" is a misnomer.
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    Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:25 pm  

    I think I see where you're absolutely right, Rasgon.
    Somehow, in my brain, I think it's the distinction of saying "month" is connotating a number of days on the calendar, not a cycle depending on which source it's using.

    I think what I was trying to work out in my brain is that there's 13 full moons which fall into the 12 months, and one in the 4 festival weeks. (Although, now that I type that, I'm hoping that's even true, because I'm not even sure it is.) So, I was thinking of a "lunar month" as a month that had a full moon. But, clearly it's a month that's based on when the moon cycle starts and ends, rather than a calendar month which happens to have a full moon. Which, I guess is why I was saying there's 13 full moons, and 13 "months" if you count the festivals. ... which isn't entirely accurate.

    At any rate, yes ... I'm more clearly understanding why a "lunar" month would be different than a "solar" one, now.

    So, it would certainly appear the elven tradition certainly doesn't honor the moon in their naming conventions of the months. And they follow a "Dozenmonth" like most of the rest of the Flanaess.
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    GreySage

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    Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:56 pm  

    Icarus wrote:
    I think what I was trying to work out in my brain is that there's 13 full moons which fall into the 12 months, and one in the 4 festival weeks. (Although, now that I type that, I'm hoping that's even true, because I'm not even sure it is.)


    Yeah, Luna is full at some point during every month and Richfest.
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