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    Canonfire :: View topic - Sunless citadel updated for greyhawk? hELP!
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    Sunless citadel updated for greyhawk? hELP!
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    Novice

    Joined: Mar 13, 2005
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    Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:05 pm  
    Sunless citadel updated for greyhawk? hELP!

    Hello everyone. Im going to be starting to DM for the very first time. I love D&D so much in my current campaign that i want to play more, so this shall crave my hunger in a way(its like crack!)

    Anyways I felt the best way to go would be to use a prewritten adventure for my first run as a DM. What I have in mind is the Sunless Citadel. What would be a good place for the sunless citadel to be located in greyhawk? Also, how hard is it to update it from 3.0 to 3.5? Any pointers to make it a really good game?

    Thanks for any help,
    Clint the Changeling
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:42 am  
    Clint

    My suggestion, your first game, I would use Village of Hommelet or one of the B series. I have only played Sunless Citadel once, so I dont remeber it so well. However, the advantage I see of Village of Hommelet or Keep on the Borderlands is that they have a city already built in, a place for characters to rest and find supplies.

    I dont remember such a thing in Sunless Citadel, or maybe our DM simply skipped it. If there is not, rather than try and build it, I would use one of the above and use Sunless Citadel as the first big adventure, after either the Moathouse or the Keep.

    These are available on SVGames, via download. And to convert encounters, I would simply use the standard monster for each representative type in the MM.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:34 am  

    Clint, if you have Sunless Citadel (for 3.0) then you should be fine. It's set to be a beginning module. There is a small town that is nearby and briefly outlined (you can detail it more as you may need).

    As for the changes between 3.0 and 3.5. Hmm I haven't converted the module. The differences between the two editions are many but shouldn't really screw up the game. There was a conversion document on WotC website that detailed some of the changes between the two versions. (The changes to the druid in 3.5 may alter some stats in Sunless Citadel)

    Village of Hommlet is great and if you can get a 3.5 converted version that would be great. Otherwise you will have much work to convert from 1e to 3e (which can be fun, but is perhaps more work than you need starting out).

    I would use what you have. Dungeon magazine is a fine source for some low-level adventures that are already set in 3.5 (therefore no need to convert)

    I located the town of Oakhurst in the Grand March. In the hex just above the H in March on the Darlene map, adjacent to the Lortmils. The PCs had travelled north from Waybury. But in subsequent modules (with more details RE the dragon Ashardalon), it seems anywhere near the Great Rift may be a good starting point too.
    Master Greytalker

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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:46 am  
    Good Suggestions

    Clint, Nolandr's suggestions are excellent. I just couldnt remeber if there was a village as a starting point for Sunless Citadel. Since there is, it should be a great beginning.

    There have been numerous conversions for the Temple of Hommlet and you should be able to find it on google or enworld.

    Oh and Nolandr, since you are playing in Gran March, how bout giving us some input on the Gran March Gazzateet boards. And Clint, if you take his suggestion and use a Gran March location, we should have some support material in the near future.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 09, 2005
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    From: Oshkosh, WI.

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    Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:43 am  

    Clint I agree with Anced_Math, Hommlet is a great module to start out with in Greyhawk you can find the conversion to 3.5 at Enworld. I have the Sunless Citadel but have not played it, but for I think it was a $1.50 you can get the download conversion from code monkey (Etools) if you use that. Also Keep on the Borderlands is a great module for starters, it was the first one I played back in 79 or 80 it has everything you need a detailed map of the Keep and a great level one adventure. Just my three cents enjoy. Smile
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:12 pm  

    Hi

    >But in subsequent modules (with more details RE the dragon Ashardalon), it seems anywhere near the Great Rift may be a good starting point too.

    What you mean "subsequent modules"? "Forge of Fury" e.t.c.?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:13 pm  

    Hi, Clint

    May be this will be useful

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf//modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1048&sid=3a6b594283eee88924bee569ce147d86
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:58 am  

    I'd also recommend "The Crucible of Freya" by Necromancer Games as a great beginning module, though it might be better to use it as a follow up to Sunless Citadel. Just change the Freya references to either Ehlonna or Beory(or another deity that you like) and you are set. I located CoF in the Northernmost portion of the wooded Principality of Ulek/ southern Welkwood. There is also a free prequel adventure for CoF on the Necromancer Games website called "The Wizard's Amulet", and it functions as a lead-in to CoF. It works especially well if you make a pc mage the wizard's apprentice who sends the pc's after the amulet(you'll see what i mean). You need a code word from the CoF adventure module to open the file though.

    "The Village of Hommlet" is a classic, though instead of looking for the original stand-alone adventure by that title, look for "The Temple of Elemental Evil"(T1-4), which contians the Vilage of Hommlet(which is part T1) AND A WHOLE LOT MORE!!! "The Temple of Elemental Evil", "Scourge of the Slave Lords", and "Queen of Spiders" is a linked campaign in itself, with plenty of room to throw in a few smaller adventures in between.
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 26, 2005 2:14 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    "The Temple of Elemental Evil", "Scourge of the Slave Lords", and "Queen of Spiders" is a linked campaign in itself, with plenty of room to throw in a few smaller adventures in between.


    Cebrion, what you think about compatibility of T1-4, A1-3 and GDQ1-7? I mean are PCs' levels after T1-4 good for to begin of A1-3 and after A1-3 for to begin GDQ1-7? Or you need make some adjustment? Do you have experience with run these modules one after other?

    Thanks
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    Sat Mar 26, 2005 4:36 am  
    Cebrion

    Cebrion, I loved the Crucible of Freya! I set Fairhill just east of Hochoch, in Gran March, north of Orlane. Then i followed up with N1 and then we ran the Valley of Snails from Dungeon Mag.

    Anyone who hasnt tried it, this module has many little side encounters, melds easily into many areas of the Flaness and is lots and lots of fun.

    Oh, we used Merrika as a substitute for Freya and that worked really well.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 15, 2002
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    Sat Mar 26, 2005 7:40 pm  

    **warning, spoilers follow**

    Vasiliy, I hate to disagree with Cebrion, but I don't think T1-4, A1-4 and GDQ work well as a linked campaign unless you put in a lot of work. Obviously, do what you will. I'm sure many DMs have used the supermodules like this with little trouble. I'm not trying to tell you what's "right", as that's your call. The following is just a varying opinion and some things to consider.

    Officially, yes, the adventures were supposed to be setup running them back to back, but personally I found it to be sloppy retrofitting (keep in mind that A1-4 was expanded into Scourge of the Slavelords years later, with Queen of Spiders following suit for G1-3, D1-3, & Q1). Here are some inconsistancies to be aware of so you can make an informed opinion before planning on this:

    - One thing I'm confused on is that each of the original A1-4 modules indicate they're for levels 4-7, but Scourge of the Slavelords indicates it's for 7-11th levels. I think the original modules were correct, but see also the next bullet point.
    - T1 (Village of Hommlet) was for 1st level characters, but by the end of the Temple (in the Elemental Nodes) they can meet dragons and giants. Scourge of the Slavelords indicates it should chronologically follow T1-4, but it also indicates it's for character levels 7-11. Even with this increase over the original 4th-7th levels for A1-4, I think it's a big decrease in the power of your foes to go to A1-4 after T1-4...but the Hommlet adventures are definitely for lower level parties than A1-4! I think for this to work, you'd have to go through Hommlet, then run the Slavelords, then come back to the Temple. That just doesn't sit well with me, but your mileage may vary.
    - GDQ is definitely the highest level of the bunch, but chronologically it originally happened PRIOR to T1-4. The DM's background for T1-4 indicates Lolth was dealt "a severe blow", which most Hawkers read as the result of the Giants/Drow/Lolth modules. Also, the Elder Elemental God was originally designed to be in the Temple, but that's more background material you could easily overlook.

    Hope this helps. Good gaming!
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:09 pm  

    Woops! Apparently, even though the cover of Scourge indicates 7th-11th levels, page 4 indicates 5th-7th levels.
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    Joined: Feb 19, 2004
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    Sat Mar 26, 2005 11:56 pm  

    Basiliv I can understand the misunderstanding about the Scourge of the Slave Lords. I have played them as A1-4 and then again as the SotSL. They are practically the same except in the interludes between the main four parts. This is where SotSL is great fun because as a DM you get to be very mean. The Party is captured as least twice and on the first time the Captain of the boat that the party is on tosses either the most expensive magical item a member has or most favoured and watch the party cry as their item is going going gone. They are sure to hate you but this balances much of the adventure and increase the members need to find new magic items. It also forces them to think and not rely on their magic all the time. A4 has been one of my favourites because the party spends the first half with no armour or forged weapons. They have to rely mostly on their wits.
    I have played part of SotSL convert to 3.0 and it is definitely not for 4th or 5th even level 6th is pushing it. The party barely survived the first level of the First part where quickly finished on the second level and they were 5 th level. I read the same 5th to 7th.

    There are some great first level dungeons. If you have not played in Greyhawk I would suggest you play either N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God, U1 Secret of Saltmarsh (there is a beautiful map available here- http://www.greyhawkonline.com/canonfire/Saltmarsh.gif done by Yabusama), T1 The Village of Hommlet, or even the Keep on the Borderland. Lately Dungeon has be a source of Greyhawk material and the latest has a nice little fourth level dungeon set in Greyhawk that has a guide to making it suitable for 2-3 Level characters. It is always good to buy Dungeon that has Greyhawk material just to let Hasbro know they are leaving money on the shelf when they do not produce for Greyhawk.
    I have found conversions for all the above dungeons except borders and I have found A1-4 as well as t1-4 and G1-3. You have to have the original material though as it is just the encounters that are converted.
    If you have played Greyhawk before place Sunless Citadel were you think it makes the most sense. Trust you gut and youíll likely be right.
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    Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:54 am  

    That makes perfect sense, thanks. But I still don't really see aspis and humanoids as a good match for a party that fought dragons and cloud giants in the elemental nodes of ToEE. Just a personal opinion.

    However, you're right. The extra material at the beginning of Scourge vs the original A1-4 has some very nice points to it. >:-)
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:22 am  

    Well, I did say that there would be a plenty of room to throw in side adventures in between the big multi-part adventures. I'd recommend doing this to better set them up, and to foreshadow events leading up to those larger multi-part adventures. That is what I did, and so far it has turned out very good, if I do say so myself.

    I have played through ToEE and have dm'd it since; both prior to 3e. In each case, all of the characters ended up at 8th or 9th level, depending on their class and experience needed(the rogues and bards came out 9th level) and how well they did. Under 3e, the levels are completely equitable, so I expect character to exit the ToEE at 9th level. This is plenty fine for going into the Scourge of the Slavelords. Some might say it is too high. It is easy enough to toughen up a few things here and there in SotSL if you have a very competent group of players.

    ****As an aside, the characters meet back up in Hommlet for the 1 year reunion of their defeat of the ToEE. While at this reunion, a messenger arrives with an invitation, which leads to the events of SotSL. In the year in between, some of the pc's went on other adventures, or took upon themselves responsibilities handed to them meritously for defeating the ToEE by the various nations backing the endeavor.****

    Anyways, as most of the pc's were decently powerful, the SotSL would have been a cake walk so only some of them went there along with a few slightly lower level pc's in the campaign or with henchmen. This set the average party level at about 7th-8th which was just right for SotSL. Even still, I tweaked a few things in SotSL to fit the character levels and my general campaign even better, and to give it that personal touch.

    From there some of the higher level pc's that didn't go into SotSL went into the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, and the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun. Some went into Mordenkainenís Fantastic Adventure, plus many other side adventures. Two survivors of the SotSL and one of their henchmen went through Ravenloft I & II, and are now riding to help break the siege of Chendl(latter part of the GH Wars).

    So, for me things havenít been as simple as 1-2-3 for the ToEE-SotSL-GDQ series so far. Right now I am foreshadowing events for the GDQ series by wrapping up the GH Wars, and setting many plots in motion around the Flanaess. I foreshadowed SotSL by having the captain of the Ghoul and his crew show up in Nulb with slave galleys while the pc's were there during the ToEE adventure. The pc's rescued the slaves on board the ships and drove off the captain and killed many of his current crew. More importantly, one of the pc's knew the captain of the Ghoul from a run-in he had with the guy in Narwal when the pc was just a low level punk. This pc got a little extra special attention from the captain each morning(a kick to the head for a wake-up call, plus a few good kicks to the ribs just for good measure). He also chucked the paladin's frost brand over board when out at sea. Oh, the cries of anguish! Cool Things got more interesting from there. Two of the pc's are still seeking revenge on the captain of the Ghoul. Any foreshadowing I do is usually planned at least one adventure in advance. Sometimes ideas do just pop up and fit into place nicely though.

    This is a bit more info on how I have interconnected these adventures in a very broad sense. The details would take quite a while to go into, so Iíll just leave you with the gist of things. The key to connecting the three adventures is through making the tenuous links of more than marginal importance. The players may not know that these links are important until they have fully connected them, but that is as it should be. Some things only the dm should know.

    And as to this quote of basiliv:

    [quote]- GDQ is definitely the highest level of the bunch, but chronologically it originally happened PRIOR to T1-4. The DM's background for T1-4 indicates Lolth was dealt "a severe blow", which most Hawkers read as the result of the Giants/Drow/Lolth modules. Also, the Elder Elemental God was originally designed to be in the Temple, but that's more background material you could easily overlook.[quote]

    Though chronologically correct under this interpretation, I chose to interpret Lolth being dealt "a sever blow" as the Elder Elemental God having actually been able to establish a foothold among one of the major noble houses in the Vault of the Drow, and not that the events of GDQ had already taken place(even though this is most likely the accurate interpretation). This latter interpretation helps with the continuity of connecting the series.

    I hope this added information gives you a better perspective on how I have handled the series so far, and how you might go about doing it as well.
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:55 am  

    Another important thing is that the intro to Scourge of the Slave Lords is perfect for introducing characters to the adventure that never even went through the ToEE. At the beginning of the SotSL, the pc's are invited to a party where there are many guests of reknown. This is a perfect place to introduce new pc's or npc's as other guests of reknown that will join up for the adventure. There are many other locations within SotSL where additional characters can be introduced. These characters could have been captured and the other pc's rescue them, or they meet up in one of the cities the pc's visit during the series, or they could meet up during the pc's overland travels.
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