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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:05 pm  

    That description lends a bit more majesty to the city in terms of how massive a walled city it really is. The city is roughly five miles in length north to south, and three miles in length east to west, and so there is around 13 miles of this massive structural wall around the irregular shaped city.

    Your top-view map doesn't match the description though. The part which is labeled <------------25ft. slope--------->, which goes up and down on the left side of the drawing, should read <---"relatively level sward a hundred or more feet broad"--->. There should also be 100 ft. of space between the battlements of the outer wall and the outer edge of the taller inner wall (i.e. the sward space). Something like this:


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    GreySage

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    Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:34 pm  

    I appreciate both drawings, but I would like to offer a third interpretation.

    Accepting Cebrion's drawing as a base, I believe the 'canyon' entryway should begin at a 25 foot depth as one passes through the outer curtain, but rise to ground level as it travels the 100 feet to the inner curtain. At that point, the entry to the inner ward is at the same level as the top of the outer curtain's catwalk. (The 25 foot height should be to the top of the outer curtain's catwalk, not the top of the crenelations/battlements. The merlons should add six feet to the height while the crenels between them add only about three feet.) Smile

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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:39 am  

    There is no slope. "Relatively level sward" sward could mean a *slight* slope, but not a slope rising 25 feet over 100 feet. That would be a very steep incline (14 degrees); the kind that would have the city creating a job, the sole function of which would be tallying yearly run-a-way wagon/cart maimings/deaths. And of course Zagig would have done so. Laughing

    By the description, the wall around the City of Greyhawk is simply "fantasy setting massive."
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:04 am  

    Ah, the Gord map. Yes, that is even bigger. There is no slope though, and my drawing shows no slope (though that may not be apparent enough in my rough 3/4 view drawing). The sward is a flat shelf. If a guard is on the battlement of the outer wall, and steps back off of the battlement (i.e. the walkway atop the outer wall), he will not plunge 25 feet to a likely death, but will be very much stepping right onto the sward, which is relatively flat, and extends from the back edge of the battlement to the base of the inner wall. The sward does not slope upwards between the outer wall and the inner, and neither does the road, insofar as either could be referred to as being mostly level. That is what the description means; like so:



    As a side note, the sward serves three purposes:

    1. It serves as a staging ground for troops, supplies, and aid for the outer wall defenses.

    2. It serves as a space to set up siege engines to attack a besieging force's troops/siege engines.

    3. It serves as a killing ground in the event the outer wall is overrun.

    Not that any of that is remotely likely to happen, unless one plays in a campaign where the DM is likely to utter...

    "Off in the distance you see the dread cambion Iuz atop a small bluff, and in a booming voice which carries across the battlefield he says, "Unleash the tarrasques upon Greyhawk!"

    Tarrasques. Plural. Laughing
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:45 am; edited 2 times in total
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:39 am  

    Read the edited post above. It is not like a word problem. It is perfectly clear. Gary probably got the idea from Krak des Chavaliers, which is what it reminded me of:


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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:09 am  

    Not in all places, but it rises similarly in the bottom left of the picture. I know there is much better example, but I cannot think of it at the moment.

    Gary was being very specific about the sward extending from the back edge of the *battlements* of the outer wall. Best to think of the top of the outer curtain wall as a sidewalk with a low wall on one side and a lawn on the other. The low wall is the parapet (over which is a 25 foot drop), the sidewalk the top walkway, and the lawn is the sward.

    The key clarifying phrase is here:

    "Between the outer and inner walls was a relatively level sward a hundred or more feet broad. The outside edge of this strip of grass was level with the battlements that topped the outer wall. "

    Also, walking across the "relatively level" (not sloped! Happy) sward to the base of the inner wall, the inner wall rises to a height of 40 feet *from that point*, not 40 feet above the top of the parapet of the outer wall.

    And so it very much is a shelf.

    One last thing; the inner wall sets atop of "crown" of rock, which I didn't include in either drawing. The whole city is atop a massive mount of stone apparently, similar to where Nottingham Castle once stood (but much larger). You can still tour the tunnels cut into the stone, but be prepared for cramped quarters, and steps - lot of steps! Not for the claustrophobic, or those too much out of shape. On the upside, if you survive, you can then crawl around to the south-ish side the base of the mount until you get to Ye Olde Trip to Jerusalem, much of the rooms of which are carved right into the bedrock, and have a pint or seven, and the muscle spasms will fade right away! Cool Laughing
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:07 am  

    Better example (though on a much smaller scale, and still not the image I have in my mind):





    Still not the right one I can picture in my mind, but it does have the feature I am talking about on the south side; on multiple levels even (just much smaller). I've been lucky enough to personally walk those grounds (at least the areas open to the public), and so can verify the structure. This is not an uncommon feature at all, though the "canyon" roadway would be, but then real life isn't over-the-top fantasy. Usually.
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:28 pm  

    Those who designed star forts got their ideas from what came before, but the innovation of star forts wasn't the level inner grounds they incorporated, but their shape. The description Gary gives is not of a star fort, but of a multi-tiered defensive system, like this...

    ...just on a much more massive scale. I think Gary would be very much into what is a feature on many mountain top castles. But then the City of Gryhawk is not a mountain top castle, so inspiration is one thing, but practical application is another.

    If a hybrid of the description and other things suits you better, then by all means go with that. I wouldn't have any road with a 14 degree slope though (1 ft. rise per 4 ft. length). Only a fortress not wanting people to be able to come and go quite so easily/safely would have that, and then there would also be stops built into the roadbed - essentially speed bumps, but smaller, sharper, and more numerous so as to make it safer for heavily loaded carts/wagons to travel up/down them. That would slow down traffic considerably, which isn't practical for a city that is the merchant hub of the Flanaess. There has to be some sort of upward slope to the road though, and that also has me thinking about the Selintan River side of things (with regard to moving goods from river trade into the city), and how the roads there would need to slope from the river level up to the city level. Another note: the irregular shape of the city would fill an ellipse about 6 mi. x 8 mi., which would give an overall area of 37.68 square miles. The city i live in encompasses 40 square miles, and has bigger homes, bigger yards, bigger roads, bigger everything really, and has a population of 180,000. The double walled City of Greyhawk is, quite simply, GINORMOUS!!! And this city is supposed to have packed humanity in it...somewhere? If that is so, the city walls must also necessarily encompass many large (100+ acre) "pastoral estates" to take up the rest of the space. This is not remotely...normal...in any sense of the word! Laughing

    Obviously this topic hits a sweet spot for me. I never thought of the City of Greyhawk as quite the massive fortress city that it is, well, at least not on this scale, but by this description that really is what it is (and the Gordhawk map scale has the city being even bigger). This very much makes me look at the City of Greyhawk in a new light, so thanks for posting a quote I have no doubt read multiple times, but passed over without contemplating it in any meaningful way. I look forward to seeing what you choose to do, and how you incorporate everything in this project.

    One last bit. I just re-read your first post, and you refer to a fan-made map of the city. Which map are you referring to?

    Edit: a link to a large image of the "Blue Box" City of Greyhawk map for those who don't have it:
    http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/CastleGreyhawk_Maps/107031.jpg

    Also, for those not aware of what maps were included in the Living Greyhawk Journal #2, they can be found here:
    https://melkot.com/locations/cogh/cogh.html
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:00 am  

    JasonZavoda wrote:
    The roads are flat and cut through the slope which is why they are like a canyon . A 14 degree slope is highly desirable to make it more difficult for attackers and siege equipment. A flat sward meeting the battlements of an outer fortification would mean that a single point of breach by ladders or siege tower would mean that attackers could flow out and attack the entire line of battlements from the flank and rear. A flat sward meeting battlements would also allow attackers a blind spot beneath the outer wall once the battlements were cleared to begin tunneling and undermining.


    So much wrong with that regarding the flat sward.

    With the flat sward, and assuming the sward is undefended for some reason, invaders surmounting it at any point will still run into choke points the width of the battlement/walkway formed by the entry "canyons" which border each section of the sward, all while under fire from the inner wall (which would probably have multiple levels of arrow silts in its face and not just at the parapet), as well as from both sides at ground level from the sward sections to either side. And of course the choke points could be fortified simply enough if the enemy overrunning any section of the outer wall seemed imminent.

    But that isn't much of a concern at all, because it would be negligent of me to fail to mention that, unlike the walkway of a normal castle wall, the outer edge of which would normally drop off into a courtyard, the sward allows any attackers clambering over the parapet the joyous opportunity of having to face not just a rank or two of defenders on the walkway, as they normally would when attacking a standard castle wall, but the especial glee of facing serried ranks of pikes or heavy infantry arrayed on the sward( and all the way up to the parapet. And so the fortunate few who are lucky enough to surmount the parapet are simply going to pinned up against it and cut down, or shoved back over it by the sheer weight and force of such massed infantry to plunge to their deaths, or each take a dozen pikes to the face as they even attempt to scramble over the parapet in the first place - any of that likely after having taken a point-blank volley of bow/crossbow fire behind those kneeling massed infantry just before they engage. The sward is a massive benefit, not an Achilles' Heel. It is literally a force multiplier - one rank of hindered attackers clambering over the parapet versus many ranks of perfectly prepared defenders. Good luck with that.

    The outer wall is 25 feet tall, but it is doubtful that the ground outside of it is nice and flat. Likely that outer 25 foot wall rises up from the top of a bedrock slope itself, with gradually sloping long roads winding along the base of the massive mount the city rests upon to even get to any outer gate. And there surely wouldn't be a nice long straight processional leading up to any outer gate, as that would be idiotic. Any ladders would most likely need to be 40 feet tall or more to reach most places on even the outer wall. And of course those roads would all be overseen by the outer walls/bastions, so a deluge of point blank range fire would rain down upon anything progressing on the roads to the outer gates to begin with (assuming the layout is even remotely sensible). Many approaches of attack are likely unfeasible due to the outermost slope plus 25 foot outer wall being too high to do much of anything reasonable.

    And then, of course, there is a moat.

    And there are no blind spots at the base of the walls or towers, as parapets overhang and arrow slits on these sorts of walls/towers are constructed such that they allow crossbows (and often bows even) to shoot straight down at the base of the wall, not to mention there will be channels for boiling oil, water, and so forth. And we needn't forget the many bastions spaced along the wall, which allow enfilade from both sides at anything attacking the the walls - that is what bastions are for. Blind spots indeed. Any lengthy ladder climb isn't looking so healthy.

    Assuming the needed equipment somehow found its way atop the sward (which assumes any massed infantry there had somehow been cleared away), any tunneling/undermining need be done through the crown of *solid rock* the inner wall is built into/upon. All the while, miners/sappers would be under fire from above, and likely from both sides at ground level from the swards to either side. It should be noted that anything on the sward targeted by missile fire will be within a range of about 35 yards or closer. At that range, arrows/bolts will hit anything on the sward less than half a second after they are fired- the sward is essentially a sniper kill zone. The sward section will also be threatened by attack from the choke points on either side of it.

    But, considering the size of the place, nobody is going to attack City of Greyhawk. It is stupidly large. I mentioned "pastoral states," but there might as well be small bits of woodland, vineyards, and perhaps some farmland as well. Considering the population (58,000 city; 75,000 including surrounding population), it would take multiple nations...yes, nations...to attack the city of Greyhawk. Iuz has 40,000, the Horned Society 45,000 or more, the Bandit Kingdoms 95,000+ (WoG boxed set numbers). Those three combined couldn't take the city if they emptied those land of inhabitant and threw them at it. If we gutted Dyvers and surrounds, and threw them into the mix (another 53,000), then we might have an actual threat (assuming all of the surrounding nations that are enemies of those lands would beg off and stay out of it, and an army of adventurers doesn't show up).

    Also looked up a city similar in size to my own. If we slice a mere three square miles off of the area of the city of Buffalo, New York, that is how big the City of Greyhawk is. Now, imagine roughly 22 miles of two layered defensive wall, as we have been discussing, surrounding Buffalo, New York. That is what we are looking at.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:41 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:07 am  

    The adventurers much more so than the general population.

    You might - MIGHT - be able to get 25% of the general population under arms, if you've got 20,000 sets of arms and armor laying around. Otherwise they're effectively peasant levies, not hugely useful in a fight with giants and dragons and fireballs and what-not.

    On the other hand, you can probably expect five percent or so to be either active or retired adventurers who will aid the defense. Three thousand low-to-mid level adventurers, especially ones in well-organized and well-polished parties, will go through most armies like a chainsaw through butter.

    Yes, there will likely be some trouble from the high-level leadership of those armies, but there will almost certainly be a handful of high-level characters in Greyhawk as well, Mordenkainen among them.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:56 am  

    All of the fantasy stuff sort of gets cinematicly treated like measures/counter-measures. You have charmed umber hulk sappers? We have summoned earth elementals/charmed xorns to kill them. You have fireballs? We have dispel magic. You have anti-heroes? We have heroes. You have clerics creating undead? We have clerics turning/destroying undead. You have dragons? We have dragons. You have lower planar nasties? We have upper planar champions. Etc.

    And so it still comes down to mostly conventional warfare in the end.

    But enough of that. I see what Jason means about the Joe Bloch map, and the Maldin map is based on the 2e Blue Box City of Greyhawk map, and so not Gygaxian at all. I do recall that many areas of the city are described in the Gord books, particularly the streets in that one story containing the street name game. Some landmarks are probably mentioned there too. I do not recall any of that well enough to know if the Joe Bloch map follows those informational clues. We might as well move onto that and leave off talking about the walls any more. Hopefully a few folks who have the books are willing to dig them out and help hunt for info.
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    GreySage

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    Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:50 pm  

    Here are some pictures I found interesting and pertinent to the conversation.

    Caerphilly Castle is an example of what Cebrion is describing - the 'relatively level sward' running from the base of the inner wall to the top of the outer wall. The parapet rises above that. Of course, Caerphilly has a moat at the base of the outer curtain wall and there is no tunnel entrance, as Cebrion describes, but the sward is accurate.


    It was easy for me to imagine that Carcassone had been a major influence on EGG when describing the defenses of the City of Greyhawk, but once I saw an actual map of Carcassone, it seems kind of obvious. Smile


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    GreySage

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    Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:20 pm  

    JasonZavoda wrote:
    SirXaris wrote:

    Caerphilly Castle is an example of what Cebrion is describing - the 'relatively level sward' running from the base of the inner wall to the top of the outer wall. The parapet rises above that. Of course, Caerphilly has a moat at the base of the outer curtain wall and there is no tunnel entrance, as Cebrion describes, but the sward is accurate.


    ...

    SirXaris


    The picture is of the remains of the post-gunpowder era castle. A quick look at google says...

    in the medieval period, the walls of the middle ward would have been much higher than today, forming a more substantial defence.

    If I were feeling better Id do more research. Personally I believe that post-gunpowder era design in modern castle remains is being confused with castle design from the pre-gunpowder eras and I dont think Gygax would make that mistake.


    That is a very interesting piece of information, Jason. It makes sense that castles would have their swards filled in with earth in order for the curtain walls to be able to absorb the impact of cannon balls more efficiently once cannons were available to attacking armies.

    However, Caerphilly was built by King Edward I before gun powder was being used in warfare - certainly before there were cannons. I'm looking at the picture and I can't see how that ward between the out curtain and the inner gatehouse could have been lower, originally. Either the inner bailey would have had to be lower as well (doesn't appear likely), or the road between gatehouses would have been dangerously steep - which problem Cebrion has previously addressed.

    I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm just asking for explanation. Happy

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    Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:24 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    But, considering the size of the place, nobody is going to attack City of Greyhawk.


    Certainly not in an all-out assault, but don't forget, in the real world, the Rus launched several raids against Byzantium & got as far as the front door at one point. The point being to force a settlement out of the city in order to deal with the annoyance.

    In Greyhawk terms, I kind of like the idea of raiding Fists sailing down the Zumker/Artonsamay rivers to raid into the Nyr Dyv area.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:53 pm  

    Sure. Raiding forces did that all of the time. With no hope of successfully taking the city, ravaging the surrounding area would result in them simply being paid to leave.

    But now I have recalled what has been burning in my mind, and the mention of city sieges is what jogged my memory, and it wasn't of a castle at all, but a wall.

    The Theodosian Walls of Constantinople, built in the early 400's AD (900 years before black powder cannon were first used in the West), has more than similar features, but with a triple wall defense (little good that it did to stop the massive gunpowder weapons the Ottomans deployed against it 1,000 years later). Perfect illustration:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe9uOpCCvnI&feature=emb_logo

    Look at that opening side shot. Two levels of swards even, and a moat. Even the wall height is similar (that's an aweful lot of coincidence). If one simply takes the Theodosian Walls and removes the outermost sward and moves the moat inward, and leaves the tops of the long passageways open to the sky (such that the entryways would then be canyon-like), you get Gygax's description of the City of Greyhawk's walls...if one also adds that the gateways pass through towers in each wall. Perhaps Gygax was somehow privy to knowledge of this...Constantinople? Wink Laughing

    Drawing a parallel between Constantinople and the City of Greyhawk is hardly a leap. I will also take it for granted Gygax had enough command of the English language to properly describe what he meant to describe. I hope that is enough discussion about the wall. I have no more to say on it, except to say that you will make it what you want to make it. I hope things move on to the city proper, puzzling out locations, streets, etc. from the books or whatever other sources there might be.

    Does anybody know if Gary or Rob Kuntz (co-DM) ever drew more detailed maps of any sections of the City of Greyhawk? You'd think Gary must have drawn something up simply to make it easier to write the street name game section of the novel.
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    Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:27 pm  

    I think we are all assuming that the entire population is within the city walls. That would be almost impossible. Most medieval cities had extensive suburbs outside the walls, thought he more defensively minded would either restrict buildings from being within bowshot of the walls or quickly destroy them if an army approached. That being said, people lived par more densely in medieval times (8 people/household is a good estimate).

    Also, 25% of a populace fighting? 10% is a far more historically likely number when you count the aged, infirm, young, otherwise impaired, ill, and those who provide an essential service (smiths, bakers, Zagyg's counter of cart accidents). And this is when almost all trades are shut down due to a siege.

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    Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:41 pm  

    Thanks for the enlightening discussion. I haven't read the Gygax novels for at least a decade and hadn't focused on it being roughly three times (per Jason's earlier post) longer than the CoG / LGJ (Maldin) version, but I've always been intrigued by the sizes for cities, towns, villages, etc. indicated by various Greyhawk maps.

    From Gygax's novel, I understand better its Gem of the Flanaess sobriquet, and from the discussion, I discern that deciding on the size (area) of the Free City of Greyhawk has ramifications throughout one's campaign.

    With that in mind, here's a link to a lovely map of Constantinople. The related Wikipedia article, Walls of Constantinople asserts that "6 km2 (2.3 sq mi) [were] enclosed within [the] Constantinian Walls [and] 14 km2 (5.4 sq mi) [were] enclosed within [the] Theodosian Walls." A related Constantinople article asserts that the city's population reached around half a million during the reign of Justinian I.

    With those points in mind, I agree with Cebrion about Gygax's scale being "fantasy setting massive," and for MC, the smaller version makes more sense: the WoG Guide lists the Free City's population as 58,000 (or 75,000+ if including the surrounding areas), and even the LGG only lists 69,500 for the city itself (or 160,000 for the entire Domain of Greyhawk).

    Of course, GH fans have long discussed how sparsely populated the Flanaess feels when compared to Europe, but if I was going to opt for Gygax's novelistic treatment of the Free City, then I think I'd need to dramatically increase its population, and I'm unsure how I'd calculate / estimate / increase the populations of other cities. (At present, I'm particularly interested in Gradsul, Monmurg, Port Toli, Westkeep, and Hokar as well as large and small towns in the vicinity.)
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:23 am  

    Going off of the City of Hawks map (roughly 6 miles wide and 9 miles long, in an irregular shape roughly 38 square miles in area, and with about a 30 mile long wall with 11 gates not evenly spaced), the entire population is certainly not within the walls. 58,000+ are within the walls, and another 17,000+ reside outside the city walls in the surrounding area (ref. CY 576 WoG boxed set). The population density of medieval cities seems far greater than cities of today, but that probably comes from the perspective of those who live in modern cities composed of smaller one/two story tract homes. The City of Greyhawk is simply so massive that, if there were any areas cramped/packed with people, as described in the books, there would necessarily be at least a few thousand acres (maybe as much as 10,000 acres) of open space within the city walls. Lets try and break that down based on the map we are working with.

    Most of the open space would be in the city streets themselves, Garden Quarter, High Quarter, The Citadel, and the Public Parks, and population density would be the least in those areas. Those areas take up about 10 square miles.

    Areas with uneven/moderate population density would be the River Quarter,Trade Districts, Craftsmen's Ward, the Clerksburg, the University Quarter, and The Strip, as much of those areas which would contain structures not devoted to living space- school grounds, libraries, businesses, warehouses, etc. Those areas take up about 15 square miles.

    The "Old City" would be the most densely populated area - the Slums, Beggars Quarter, Thieves' Quarter, Labor District, Foreign Quarter, and the Brewers' Quarter. The Old City takes up about 11 square miles.

    And so we have three main areas of population density. I will arbitrarily assign the Old City 68% of the population, [what I will call] the Middling Area 25%, and Wealthier/Government area the remaining 7%. That would give us the following:

    * Old City (11 sq. mi.): population 39,440 (pop. dens. 3,636/sq. mile)
    * Middling Areas (15 sq. mi.): population 14,500 (pop. dens. 967/sq. mi.)
    * Wealthy/Government Areas (10 sq. mi.): 4,060 (pop. dens. 406/sq. mi.)

    It may seem that I have put too many people in the Old City, but the population density there is nothing compared to Rio di Janeiro (13,930/sq. mi. Surprised) or Manila (111,002/sq. mi. Shocked), so fairly mild in comparison. A packed urban sprawl no doubt, but not one of so many building stories piled upon others as in Rio and Manilla.

    And we must consider that were are not dealing with many buildings with more than two or three stories, or hole-in-the-wall apartment skyrises, so it seems reasonable enough. The Old City should be packed with people, and the population there won't be evenly distributed among the sections either. A good portion of those people will be stuffed into the Slum, Beggars', and Laborers' Quarters. Some small parts of the Old City are burned out/ruined, and some fewer people will still live there in whatever shelter they can put together. Those areas will see hundreds sleeping in the streets and alleyways on a daily basis. The Gord books do a good job of communicating the squalor in much of the Old City, and the worst parts are dog-eat-dog, rat-eat-rat, and maybe even street urchin-eat-street urchin.

    Most of the population (75% or more) of the Wealthy/Government areas would be taken up by people serving the city government, namely soldiers/guards in The Citadel and city functionaries; the other 25% would be composed of nobles and wealthy citizens, and their live-in servants and personal guards.

    The area encompassing The Shacks and Hutsham outside the city walls is maybe 3 sq. mi., assuming most of the area along the river is taken up by docks, ship yards, storage areas, etc., and that much of the area is kept relatively clear of the local destitute populace so as to be less off-putting to visitors; especially near the gates (i.e the city doesn't need river trade hassled too much by the inhabitants there). To be awfully packed and destitute, these areas would contain the majority of the 17,000+ outer area residents, with the remainder living on farms, estates, etc.

    Those population numbers are assumed to be true residents of the city and immediate surrounds. Add in visitors (this is *THE* merchant hub "Gem of the Flanaess" after all), and the everyday population in-/outside the city could normally be as much as 50% more than that; higher during the busiest seasons.

    Good reference page for Gordhawk stuff (including streets!): https://greyhawkonline.com/gord/greyhawk.html

    Another map reference: https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Y8lwu-8dXc8/U3Hq2udIM-I/AAAAAAAAJiQ/z6_Dysbmq38/s1600/cityofgaryhawk.gif
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:33 pm  

    For a 30 mile long double layered wall, with guard towers, about how many guards do you all think there would even be assigned to patrol it at any given time?
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