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    Canonfire :: View topic - Flanaess-Europe ratio
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    Flanaess-Europe ratio
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:48 am  
    Flanaess-Europe ratio

    I know it's a bit silly, but just to have some proportions in mind, has someone placed an eruope and a flanaess map side to side with the same scale to get an idea on the size of the states compred to real world?
    I think the flanaess maps we have don't really give the idea of the sheer size of the continent. A single hex around my city, for instance (I live in northern Italy) used to contain dozens of fiefdoms, castles, fields, manor houses etc.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:25 am  

    I think it depends partly on which population figures you use. 3e LG increased population figures to be more in keeping with real world Europe. Personally, I stuck broadly with the From the Ashes figures, and updated them slightly, which means that demi-human population levels dropped dramatically in my less cosmopolitan Flanaess. I just figured that there are so many magical and monstrous hazards in Oerik not to mention small humanoid tribes that never make it into the general population stats and justice dished out at sword point that figures for 'civilised' settlers could easily stay low.

    It is true that many manor houses and farms should lie in close proximity to larger settlements and probably in the same hex. The village of Northending Wood lies only 12 miles away from the city of Gradsul for example.

    It's good in a way because you can add in robber barons, minor nobility, and wealthy merchant estates without impacting too much on the politics of the larger settlements.
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    Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:50 am  

    GreySage

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    Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:22 pm  

    Wow! Shocked

    Nice work Nematode! Cool

    I really like that! Happy
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:26 pm  

    While Nematode's example looks cool, and it does look cool, it is not accurate. The top of the map needs to be as long as the bottom. As it is, the farther north you go, the more the nations shrink from their regular size. I don't know if that can be corrected, but the bottom of the map gives an accurate enough size reference.
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    GreySage

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    Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:25 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    As it is, the farther north you go, the more the nations shrink from their regular size.


    Technically, that's the Flanaess as it "really" is, and the Darlene map is just a Mercator projection. If the map was "really" as wide on top as it was on the bottom, it would take up half the planet, leaving little room for anything else (because there's significantly less planet in the north than there is along the equator - a map that took up 70 degrees of the equator might take up 180 degrees of the arctic circle, not that I've done the math).

    Of course, DMs have been treating the Darlene maps as accurate for decades, letting PCs cross northern hexes at the same movement rate as southern hexes, so the "real" Flanaess as it would look if it was projected on a globe doesn't exist.

    Oerth, in every practical sense, is flat. It's a flat world that people imagine, incorrectly, is a globe. But if it was a globe, Nematode's map would be accurate, or at least more accurate than the Darlene map is.
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    Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:17 am  

    The best that can be achieved when projecting Darleneís map onto a globe, which as Rasgon points out, was never designed to represent a curved surface, are degrees of accuracy.

    In my picture, along 35 degrees north latitude, where I placed Greyhawk City, the Darlene map is accurately scaled. Anywhere longitudinally, itís pretty accurate. The further you deviate from those, the more inaccurate it becomes.

    Do the unavoidable inaccuracies make my picture useless? Obviously, I donít think so. It pretty reasonably illustrates the size of the Flanaess compared to Africa-Eurasia, and thatís the point, to hopefully provide some context for the original posterís question.
    GreySage

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    Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:25 am  

    Given the size of Oerik, I've always assumed that Oerth was a larger planet than our Earth, else Oerth's oceans would be pretty small. Confused

    Or perhaps Oerth's other continents don't really qualify as continents! After all, Pluto no longer qualifies as a planet. rolleyes

    I'm just saying that, for my part, I never really imagined Oerth "measuring up" to Earth in such a fashion. Wink

    Still, I enjoyed the overlay Nematode. Cool
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    GreySage

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    Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:34 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Given the size of Oerik, I've always assumed that Oerth was a larger planet than our Earth, else Oerth's oceans would be pretty small.


    According to Roger E. Moore in The Adventure Begins, Oerth's circumference is about 25,200 miles (40,555.47 km). Earth's circumference is about 40,041.47 km, so Oerth has a larger circumference by a few hundred kilometers.

    It's not that Oerth's oceans are that small, but that there's only one of them interrupting the equatorial circumference. Earth has two, of course, the Atlantic and Pacific, while Oerth only has the Solnor. For comparison, the average distance between the Flanaess and the western shore of Oerik is 3,000 miles. The Atlantic is 1,770 mi at its narrowest and 4,000 mi at its widest, I think.
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    Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:44 pm  

    Here's a "whole Oerth" map that I made, based on the map created by Gary Holian way back when, and run thru a fractal mapper to pretty it up & show elevations.

    It really shows how the sea encircles the continents, and how small the Flanaess is, compared to the Oerth as a whole.

    If you're not sure where the Flanaess is, look for the inland sea at upper-center right that kinda looks like Bullwinkle's antlers Smile

    [/img]
    GreySage

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    Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:23 pm  

    Judging by this "new" map, I'd say that Hepmonaland hardly qualifies as a continent, but serves rather as a large island. Confused

    I take it that only one of Oerth's "poles" is frozen over?
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    Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:32 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I take it that only one of Oerth's "poles" is frozen over?


    There should be a small amount of land at the south pole, but I don't know if it is snowy or what down there. I assume it should be a frozen area.
    GreySage

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    Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:00 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I take it that only one of Oerth's "poles" is frozen over?


    They're both frozen. The southern polar ice cap isn't depicted to make it clear that there's a continent to the north and not to the south. Beneath the icecap is Polaria, a chain of mountainous islands.

    When trying to judge if Hepmonaland should be a continent or not, keep in mind that Nematode's map is a Mercator projection, so it's significantly distorted; equatorial lands like Hepmonaland will seem smaller than they are and polar lands like Telchuria will seem much bigger than they are. Telchuria is 5-10 million square miles in area, while Hepmonaland is about 2 million square miles. For comparison, Australia is 2,967,909.39 square miles.

    The Adventure Begins says: "If the map is accurate, then Hepmonaland is about two million square miles -precisely on the border between continent and island, but favoring the former in the opinion of most learned minds."


    Last edited by rasgon on Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:09 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Keep in mind that Nematode's map is a Mercator projection, so it's significantly distorted; equatorial lands like Hepmonaland will seem smaller than they are.


    Understood, still, I was thinking of it's size in relation to Oerik, not Telchuria. Oerik has its fair share of equatorial lands and it seems unnecessarily large, though I think that subject has been discussed elsewhere on CF.

    What is Oerik's overall landmass in square miles?

    I thank Rasgon and Nematode for the "polar" clarification. Happy
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    GreySage

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    Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:14 pm  

    Well, if Oerik is the measure of a continent, then Oerik is the only continent on Oerth. If you're going by Earth's continents instead, Hepmonaland isn't much smaller than Australia.
    GreySage

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    Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:22 pm  

    I can understand that and thanks.

    I'm not really going by Earth standards per sae, but rather, it seems to me that Oerik is much larger compared to Hepmonaland than Asia is to Australia, at least the maps make it "look" that way.

    But the Oerik/Hepmonaland ratio might be quite similar to the Asia/Australia ratio, I don't know. It may well only be a graphic "illusion." Cool

    Incidentally, I'm thinking that the two threads you and I are currently posting on would make an interesting Thursday night discussion next week. Evil Grin
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:08 pm  

    Thank you! That's exactly what I was looking for.

    At a quick glance, I could consider Italy more or less the same size as both Urns States+the Pale put together! Nyrond itself is smaller than Spain.

    I admit I though the states were much bigger. I would have said Italy was barely as big as the Wild Coast (and not, sadly, just politically/socially/economically akin - sigh).
    Site Theocrat

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    Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:22 am  
    Prime Meridian is.....

    Hi all -
    As one that did a lot of research for my never-Future article in the OJ, Weathering the Flanaess - I mapped out Longitude / Lattitudes for each of the cities on the Darlene map. I used the Darlene maps because I figured that although newer maps might be usable and have more cities (except Rauxes) - everybody recognizes Darlene's map even for those that don't accept anything else (plus this was before Dragon's 4 part poster map).
    But going back to what I was doing with that ...not just the longitude and latitudes, I found that RAUXES is the Prime Meridian of the Flanaess. Sure Rauxes is no longer around to most of us, however that doesn't mean that people still don't utilize that as the PM.
    This is because of the great people of the Great Kingdom that founded all the good stuff that is right with the Flanaess and how all the rest of the world is useless waste and not worth finding out about.
    So please move Nematode's map to the correct PM and go from there. Not saying that it isn't cool to utilize it from a GH standpoint - but sure the world is called Greyhawk after it's infamous city, the PM is still Rauxes.
    Be Well. Be Well Primed.
    Theocrat Issak
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    Theocrat Issak
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    Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:36 am  
    Doing this Up's My Post Count

    Hi All -
    Instead of editing my previous post, this up's my post count! Just to get up there with that Bobcob worshiping Scholar...
    OK, besides the Prime Meridian thing...Regarding Continents, the Flanaess is itself a continent. The Hellfurnances are the western portion of the continent. By quickly looking at the HempMONAland it seems like it might just be a bit smaller than the Flanaess and thus it might be a continent. It's been a long time since I worked on my not-likely-to-be-completed-and-published Weathering the Flanaess article, but several sources stated that HempMONAland wasn't a continent. Oerik is a continent as is Telchuria (that's the continent at the bottom of the map that's split - right?).
    I don't recall if the area from the Hellfurnances west to that section of landmass (like a bridge) that gets to Oerik is also a continent or not.
    If so, it would be like Eurasia - but in this case the one single land mass is broken into 3 continents. I do know that it is at least two with the Flanaess being a continent. And I think this is the case because I had thought that Oerth had 4 continents and that didn't include HempMONAland. Although, I'm unsure if Hyboria is considered a continent - which as an actual landmass (unlike Polieria) should be.
    Be Well. Be Well Mona'd.
    Theocrat Issak
    P.S. I suppose I should no longer really highlight the whole MONA part, since it wasn't named for him and he no longer games or does much work with Greyhawk. But it was cool as ice to meet him.
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    Theocrat Issak
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    Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:40 am  
    EVEN MORE POST COUNTING.....

    Hi all -
    Am I the only one that utilizes the subject for stupid anecdotes?
    Even if Nematode's GoogleOerth map is wrong with the Prime, can I get the full version (as well as the other Oerth map that's listed) so that we can put them up on the GreyhawkOnline.com/maps folder (and whomever is in charge and put them in the right place).
    email me at you know my name at GreyhawkOnline.com with them.
    Thanks, I'm sure someone will enjoy them long after someone's necromancer-ed this thread multiple times.
    Be Well. Be Well Googled.
    Theocrat Issak
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    GreySage

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    Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:00 pm  
    Re: Doing this Up's My Post Count

    TheocratIssak wrote:
    Instead of editing my previous post, this up's my post count! Just to get up there with that Bobcob worshiping Scholar...


    Yeah, like that's going to happen! Evil Grin

    TheocratIssak wrote:
    Regarding Continents, the Flanaess is itself a continent. The Hellfurnances are the western portion of the continent . . .
    If so, it would be like Eurasia - but in this case the one single land mass is broken into 3 continents. I do know that it is at least two with the Flanaess being a continent.


    I like this take on things. Glad you pointed that out Issak. And it makes much more sense like that. Oerik is far too large to be a single continent. Oerik and the Flanaess (Europe and Asia) works much better for me. Anything canonical on that?

    TheocratIssak wrote:
    By quickly looking at the HempMONAland it seems like it might just be a bit smaller than the Flanaess and thus it might be a continent. It's been a long time . . . but several sources stated that HempMONAland wasn't a continent . . . And I think this is the case because I had thought that Oerth had 4 continents and that didn't include HempMONAland.


    Given Hepmonaland's evident size -- in comparison to the landmass of Oerik -- it would seem just a large island. But given Rasgon's comment, may I ask if you can cite some canonical sources for us in regards to this assertion?

    TheocratIssak wrote:
    I suppose I should no longer really highlight the whole MONA part, since it wasn't named for him and he no longer games or does much work with Greyhawk. But it was cool as ice to meet him.


    Sorry to hear that about Erik, but glad you got to meet him. And the "maps folder" is looking good by the way. Kudos to all involved. Cool
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    Last edited by Mystic-Scholar on Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:54 am; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:05 am  

    And here's a koodo for you, Scholar, just for being such an encouragement to so many on these boards.
    GreySage

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    Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:53 am  

    Nice link Bubbagump. Cool

    And I am truly humbled by your compliment. Embarassed

    Thank you my friend. And you deserve a kudos as well for all that you do too. Happy
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    Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:16 am  

    Thanks Theo for offering to host my pictures, but as Cebrion pointed out, the one isn't accurate. My pictures are for fun, and it's not fun to have to defend or explicate them. I was expecting something of the sort, and that's the surest sign that it's time to move along.

    Before I do, thanks M-S and Mtoscan for the attaboy's.
    GreySage

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    Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:14 am  

    nematode wrote:
    but as Cebrion pointed out, the one isn't accurate . . . it's not fun to have to defend or explicate them . . . it's time to move along.


    Don't allow yourself to be discouraged Nematode. Remember this:

    Mtoscan wrote:
    Quote:
    has someone placed an eruope and a flanaess map side to side with the same scale to get an idea on the size of the states compred to real world?


    And that's exactly what you did. You did what was requested. And I might add you are the only one to do so. No one else even tried to supply a map to this discussion. Well done Nematode! Happy

    For all those here who might be interested to know, it has been debated for many years now that our own real world maps are inaccurate in detailing the true size of some of our world's continents and these people blame the inaccuracy on racism. Yes, anything for the sake of argument. Evil Grin

    So the nit-picking about your maps accuracy is not germane to the conversation and therefore unimportant. Keep up the good work. Wink

    Also, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all here that our goal here at CF is to encourage submissions and participation, not discourage it with negative comments. Razz

    And incidentally, that wasn't Cebrion's intention. Trust me. Wink

    Be a true Greyhawker . . . and keep it positive! Cool
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    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:24 pm  

    I agree with the Scholar, nematode - your contributions here are both valued and highly appreciated.

    Let's face it: Greyhawk is a fictional world and the material written for it (or drawn for it, as the case may be) is chock full of inconsistencies, contradictions, and outright mistakes. If this were not true, there would be little reason for Canonfire to exist. So kudos to anyone willing to take a stab at providing more or better information, regardless of whether or not anyone else likes it or approves of it.
    Site Theocrat

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    Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:13 pm  
    Nematode isn't a TOAD

    Hi all -
    I sometimes crack me up.
    Nematode - I didn't intend to discourage you by stating that the PM is in Rauxes and not Greyhawk City. Esp. because if you'd put the PM in Rauxes and marked it with the PM of Earth at Greenwich, well then, more than a third of the Greyhawk Map would be in the Atlantic and would therefore not accomplish what was originally asked.
    I merely wanted to remind people that Rauxes is the PM. Since there is no way to show the PM of Earth and the 'Known' PM of Oerth (as I'm sure those in Oerik nations don't think that Rauxes or even Greyhawk City would be the PM) I think you did an excellent job. However, I do think that maybe putting Rauxes lined up with maybe Constantinople/ Istanbul would work best - mainly because it would cover more of Europe/Asia and the Flanaess and show more of a connection. Heck I think it might even be better to line Greyhawk City with northern Italy - maybe in an attempt to line up the Nyr Dyv with the Mediterranean Sea - just to cover those two as an example of sizes. Or maybe the Med/Italy with the Wild Coast region.
    Again, and same with the reason for uploading your map to the Maps folder of GreyhawkOnline.com - it's not for discussion, it's for comparison. Have you seen ChatDemon's Mystra/Oerth merger? I mean shyt that comes up with a ton of argument if ever there was one (because only the Isle of Dread is on both Mystra and Oerth).
    So please don't let my statements stop you from e-mailing me your overlay map (or else I'll have to gank it from from the post and upload it from there and it won't be such a cool map).
    See so I'm not asking you to make things better or more in relation to a Earth / Oerth Connection in a real sense, but maybe in a more fantastical sense that allows us to see a closer connection to Oerth and Earth that most of us cannot figure out the correct programs to do so - like you've evidently shown not just an aptitude to do so, but an awesome talent.
    In fact, I think Cebrion should get you to make a few maps like that an actual Post and not just a Forum Post.
    Be Well. Be Well Re-Mapped.
    Theocrat Issak
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    GreySage

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    Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:25 pm  

    Well said Holy Theocrat! Happy

    Sorry I forgot to mention your obvious innocence in the "earlier" post. Embarassed
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    Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:43 am  
    Oerth Maps Stuffed into Google Earth for Comparison

    You should be able to look at these maps for comparison and if it helps, you can flip them with Paint so that Europe looks more like the Flaness or vice versa. These maps were imported so that they were cropped and stretched to a 1:2 ratio to fit into Google Earth. Though Greyhawk works as a good opposite of Constantinople, there's no good Oerth-version of Greenwhich to use as a prime meridian. The notches taken out of the one map were from where I was trying to delinate latitude. This map of course doesn't take into account any space for a Aqauria/New Empyrea continent between oceans which I'm starting to think should based on the number of continents Oerth is supposed to have.

    http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1090/1374880434_7ca53e7575.jpg?v=0

    http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/dnd/Maps/files/oerthlarge.gif

    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2571/3706854051_940bb9199a_b.jpg

    http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2571/3706854051_940bb9199a_b.jpg&imgrefurl=http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558838/How_to_fit_every_major_D38D_continent_on_one_world&usg=__t9rT9RE0IWxCuOo_wTp6fJqJl0A=&h=1024&w=1024&sz=756&hl=en&start=415&itbs=1&tbnid=YkcYt1oR6xDK8M:&tbnh=150&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3DOerth%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26start%3D414

    http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/95/l_107a3a152cb24a8084fbda6191ff0f63.jpg

    http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/80/l_0c9e26def23a4278939eb370636e6ac6.jpg

    http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/65/l_d567980d3edd41879e7e2f42bc14024c.jpg
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    Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:35 am  

    I put together a spreadsheet with the size of each country in the Flanaess. See thread here.

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=9295
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