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    Canonfire :: View topic - Grazzt is Everywhere
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    Grazzt is Everywhere
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:13 am  
    Grazzt is Everywhere

    I've not ever seen much discussion of this but I find it interesting that Grazzt, big in Greyhawk, is featured promiently in the FR adventure For Duty and Deity, that has the most detailed information available on Grazzt's triple-realm in the Abyss. It mentions Iuz and Oerth too, as well as Iuz' _sister_! Grazzt gets around. But the mother is not named, as I recall.
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    Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:30 am  

    The way that ol boy jumps around and has kids you would swear he was a truck driver wouldnt you. Laughing


    Maraudar
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    Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:39 am  

    Oh that's a good one Maraudar! Laughing

    For Duty and Deity...is that the FR adventure where Grazzt has kidnapped the GH version of Zilchus? I can never remember the names of FR deities.
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    Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:54 pm  

    Her name is Waukeen IIRC.

    Isn't Iuz sister the daughter of Iggwilv and some mage: Drezlna (sp?) ?
    I believe Grazzt has some more Cambion children in Planescape. Rule-of-Three maybe?

    Grazzt stats are in one of the PS monster manuals (or is it the Chaos box?) too.
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    Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:33 am  

    Tedra wrote:
    For Duty and Deity...is that the FR adventure where Grazzt has kidnapped the GH version of Zilchus? I can never remember the names of FR deities.


    Thanael wrote:
    Her name is Waukeen IIRC.

    Isn't Iuz sister the daughter of Iggwilv and some mage: Drezlna (sp?) ?
    I believe Grazzt has some more Cambion children in Planescape. Rule-of-Three maybe?

    Grazzt stats are in one of the PS monster manuals (or is it the Chaos box?) too.


    Yes. Waukeen is kidnapped by Grazzt to set off the adventure. There is, however a lot more to it for GH fans.

    For Duty and Deity provides:

    (1) Expansive details on Azzagrat, Grazzt's three layer realm of the Abyss (Layers 45, 46 and 47);

    (2) Expansive details on Grazzt's capital city of Zelatar, which spans all three layers, in part;

    (3) Expansive details on the Abyssal city of Samora (47th Layer) and the Viper Forest of Zrintor (45th Layer); and

    (4) Nice maps of Azzagrat, Zelator, Samora and the Zrintor.

    Oerth is directly mentioned as follows -

    (1) Iuz, as Grazzt's son, and how he "orchestrated" the GH Wars on Oerth;

    (2) Celestian's role in the Waukeen Affair; and

    (3) Grazzt's plans for both Oerth and Toril - he intends to drag both worlds into the Abyss each to serve as the seed for new planes to add to Azzagrat.

    Details are also provided about the PS concept of the Infinite Staircase, which provides "back doors" into a number of planes.

    While the FR connection is obvious here, there is a substantial GH connection as well. The information on Grazzt and his realm alone is, IMO, worth the price of admission.

    Grazzt's daughter is Thraxxia, an alu-fiend with the added abilities of a Nalfeshnee demon. Her mother is not identified.

    Drezlna (sp) is Iggwilv's daughter but as a human and vampire does not appear to be Grazzt's daughter. Grazzt definately gets around and the module mentions his siring of multiple children and how he uses them as pawns in his plans.

    Thraxxia is not a native of the Realms. She is described as raised in the Abyss and only coming into play after Waukeen id captured so her involvement with the Realms is incidental. So, she might show up on Oerth, just depending. Smile

    I find Grazzt's growing family connections fascinating.

    Grazzt lovers with Iggwilv
    Iuz son of Grazzt and Iggwilv
    Drelzna daughter of Iggwilv and ???, Grazzt as stepfather???
    Thraxxia daughter of Grazzt and ???

    Iuz then has two known half sisters - Thraxxia the alu-fiend and Drelzna the vampiress.

    The Grazzt Family Reunion must be something. Shocked
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    Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:40 pm  

    I was just stumbling around and happened upon this tidbit -

    Grazzt's sister is Rhyxalia, Demon Princess of Shadow.

    Her layer of the Abyss is Shaddonon. She has Grazzt's complexion and six digits on each hand.
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    Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:17 am  

    Great finds!

    IMC I have taken the family tree one step further removed and made Baba Yaga of the infamous Hut as Iggwilv's mother. Whether blood mother or not, Baba Yaga is known for raising lost girls and it just seems natural that both are witches and so forth.
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    Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:58 am  

    mortellan wrote:
    Great finds!

    IMC I have taken the family tree one step further removed and made Baba Yaga of the infamous Hut as Iggwilv's mother. Whether blood mother or not, Baba Yaga is known for raising lost girls and it just seems natural that both are witches and so forth.


    Thats a brilliant idea? Given any thought as to how Baba Yaga made it to Perrenland or why she went there?
    Were the Caverns originally her homeland?

    Got my intereste piqued here!
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    Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:30 am  

    Duicarthan wrote:
    mortellan wrote:
    Great finds!

    IMC I have taken the family tree one step further removed and made Baba Yaga of the infamous Hut as Iggwilv's mother. Whether blood mother or not, Baba Yaga is known for raising lost girls and it just seems natural that both are witches and so forth.


    Thats a brilliant idea? Given any thought as to how Baba Yaga made it to Perrenland or why she went there?
    Were the Caverns originally her homeland?

    Got my intereste piqued here!


    I agree Exclamation Great stuff Happy I've always thought there was some quasi-canon connection between Baba-Yaga, Iggwilv and the Finnish pantheon's, Crone of Pohola (sp). I can't exactly place it, however. Maybe it was in EGG's use of honorifics to describe Iggwilv?
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    Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:59 am  

    Quote:
    Grazzt's sister is Rhyxalia, Demon Princess of Shadow.


    GVD, where did you come across that?

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    Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:07 pm  

    Maraudar wrote:
    Quote:
    Grazzt's sister is Rhyxalia, Demon Princess of Shadow.


    GVD, where did you come across that?

    Maraudar


    That would be in the free Wotc web-enhancement to the Book of Vile Darkness, available on the Wotc website. It states that Rhyxalia is believed to be Grazzt's sister and notes the same coloration and six-fingered hand. They both appear as Abat-Dolor. Thinking about it, it is also noteworthy that Grazzt is the Lord of Shadows and his sister is the Demon Princess of Shadows. Gotta love a close knit family. Smile
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    Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:09 pm  

    Duicarthan wrote:


    Thats a brilliant idea? Given any thought as to how Baba Yaga made it to Perrenland or why she went there?
    Were the Caverns originally her homeland?

    How did Baba make it to Perrenland? Her planar travelling hut of course! Why does she go anywhere? She's cryptic that way. I doubt she is originally from Oerth, this is an honor best left to Iggwilv.

    The first Dancing Hut module was written by Roger Moore in Dragon 83 and was remade for 2E based on the Dragon mod. I figured since the Hut is a unique artifact mentioned in 1E, it would be natural to assume its connection to Oerth. Dragon 83 gives a few reasons why Baba is around:

    1)Raiding the countryside for people to eat. This is also a flaw of Baba in that she has a soft spot for children (usually little girls). It says many tales are told of children being abandoned on the doorstep of the Hut, to be taken in as servants for a short time before being sent away. The children benefit from the experience and are given great gifts. Baba Yaga refers to these girls in the adventure as her 'daughters' and they even have their own opulent bedrooms in the Hut.

    2)An item the PCs need was taken by an old woman into a dark forest. She does tend to collect alot of magic stuff.

    3) PCs need to consult Baba for advice or for a special spell assistance. Baba Yaga while evil is still a good source of information if players are polite to her (she likes being called Little Grandmother).

    The entry on Baba Yaga in Dragon has her a supernatural being equal to quasi-deities, much like Iggwilv. Her 1E classes are Druid15, Fighter16, Magic-User25, Illusionist15

    It says her wanderings have brought her far from her old home (possibly Russia I bet) and she still wanders on visits to RELATIVES or on quests for treasure or victims to eat. I postulate that Iggwilv's childhood may have started as an abandoned child on Oerth, taken in as one of countless daughters of Baba Yaga(the mod mentions current daughters named Natasha the Dark (CE Mage15) and Elena the Fair (LG Mage16)), then once her proclivity towards being like 'mother' showed up and she was old enough to fend for herself, Baba dropped Iggwilv back off in Perrenland to wreak havoc. The rest is history.
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    Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:48 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:


    I agree Exclamation Great stuff Happy I've always thought there was some quasi-canon connection between Baba-Yaga, Iggwilv and the Finnish pantheon's, Crone of Pohola (sp). I can't exactly place it, however. Maybe it was in EGG's use of honorifics to describe Iggwilv?


    Yes, Iggwilv is called Louhi somewhere, which would be the finnish crone of Pohjola (sp?) who is also in the 1E Deities & Demigods.

    I like the Baba Yaga connection. She is a common Russian myth/fairy story (or was it Slavic?). Google turns up lots of nice info for her... For example she rides a pestle and mortar, not a broom.


    Oh and BTW For Duty & Deity is available as a free pdf on WotC:
    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads
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    Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:25 am  

    Thanael wrote:
    Oh and BTW For Duty & Deity is available as a free pdf on WotC:
    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads


    COOL! I didn't realize that! Many thanks! Happy
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    Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:45 am  

    As Thanel pointed out, Iggwilv is also Louhi of the Finnish Pantheon. So both Baba Yaga and Iggwilv have an Earthly connection, as Baba Yaga, of course, comes from Russian folklore.

    Both also have an Oerthly connection as both are mentioned as present on Oerth at one time or another. Natch.

    I've been thinking about the relationship between the two, spurred on by Mortellan's thoughts.

    Are Iggwilv and Baba Yaga the same entity? I'm tempted by this thought. Both are variously described supreme witches. I think, however, they are not one and the same. Looking at Louhi (Iggwilv's incarnation of Earth) and Baba Yaga, while they are both crones, Baba Yaga is clearly distinguishable. Louhi has no Dancing Hut and no flying mortar and pestal. Neither does Iggwilv. If Iggwilv (or Louhi) was Baba Yaga, I doubt she would give up the Dancing Hut. I, therefore, think they must be separate entities.

    Are they related? Mortellan has suggested that Baba Yaga is Iggwilv's mother. I think this is highly plausible. Both have "crone" aspects. Both are supreme witches. Both are present on both Oerth and Earth. The kicker, I think, is their honorifics. Iggwilv is called the Mother of Witches. Baba Yaga is called Little Grandmother. If Iggwilv is the Mother of Witches and Baba Yaga the witch is the grandmother, it is a small leap to say that Baba Yaga is Iggwilv's mother (real or adopted, the latter as Mort suggests).

    A family tree would then look like this:

    Grandmother - Baba Yaga
    Mother - Iggwilv
    Daughter - Drelnza

    Btw, that would make Baba Yaga Graxxt's Mother-In-Law. Shocked

    Thoughts?
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    Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:36 am  

    "Btw, that would make Baba Yaga Graxxt's Mother-In-Law."

    That is too funny! Laughing But, I guess he could get away with calling her an old bird or hag.[/quote]
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    Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:14 am  

    And speaking of mother's, Grazzt's is supposedly a demon called Pale Night.

    While no father for Grazzt is canon, Pale Night lives on the layer of the Abyss that Bahomet controls. Why would Pale Night want her mobile bone palace on Bahomet's layer? Why would Bahomet allow it without a fight, these being demons and all? Arguably, if the two are lovers?

    Bahomet, real world, is a very old and storied demon with a pronounced sexual nature.

    Is Bahomet Grazzt's daddy? Recognizing that what your parents look like doesn''t mean much in the Abyss as far as what you will look like.

    Thoughts?
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    Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:53 am  

    Quote:
    Bahomet, real world, is a very old and storied demon with a pronounced sexual nature.



    Grazzy seems to come by it naturally huh? Cool Could you imagine having Baba as a mother-in-law? Shhesh she gets ticked off at you and bam. your in the stew pot and and being belched out later Wink


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    Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:21 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    And speaking of mother's, Grazzt's is supposedly a demon called Pale Night.

    While no father for Grazzt is canon, Pale Night lives on the layer of the Abyss that Bahomet controls. Why would Pale Night want her mobile bone palace on Bahomet's layer? Why would Bahomet allow it without a fight, these being demons and all? Arguably, if the two are lovers?

    Bahomet, real world, is a very old and storied demon with a pronounced sexual nature.

    Is Bahomet Grazzt's daddy? Recognizing that what your parents look like doesn''t mean much in the Abyss as far as what you will look like.

    Thoughts?


    Pale Night, the Demon Queen of Ravens, Mother of Darkness is known to take consorts. Baphomet is but the most recent. Before that she was with Pazuzu if i remember correctly. As Grazzt is among the most powerful and very old demons I don't think any of the two is his father.

    Read more about Pale Night on Dicefraks old board (if the page doesn't load hit reload a few times...)

    There's also The Serge's excellent flavour (and stats) for Grazzt available on the new DF boards. It does offer some astounding rumours about the Dark Man's real father.
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    Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:46 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Maraudar wrote:
    Quote:
    Grazzt's sister is Rhyxalia, Demon Princess of Shadow.


    GVD, where did you come across that?

    Maraudar


    That would be in the free Wotc web-enhancement to the Book of Vile Darkness, available on the Wotc website. It states that Rhyxalia is believed to be Grazzt's sister and notes the same coloration and six-fingered hand. They both appear as Abat-Dolor. Thinking about it, it is also noteworthy that Grazzt is the Lord of Shadows and his sister is the Demon Princess of Shadows. Gotta love a close knit family. Smile


    Actually she's named Rhyxali. Here's a link
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    Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:19 pm  

    Thanael wrote:
    Pale Night, the Demon Queen of Ravens, Mother of Darkness is known to take consorts. Baphomet is but the most recent. Before that she was with Pazuzu if i remember correctly. As Grazzt is among the most powerful and very old demons I don't think any of the two is his father.

    Read more about Pale Night on Dicefraks old board (if the page doesn't load hit reload a few times...)

    There's also The Serge's excellent flavour (and stats) for Grazzt available on the new DF boards. It does offer some astounding rumours about the Dark Man's real father.


    These articles present very interesting speculations on Pale Night and Grazzt and are very well written. Thank you for the links. Happy

    Reading them, I have some concern that they are trying to make Grazzt too big a deal. He is interesting and all but Asmodeus' son by Pale Night? That's taking things pretty far, IMO.

    Still, very cool articles. Smile
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    Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:59 am  

    Grazzt is quite big in the Gord novels. He's a peer (or even more) of Nerull and a monarch of demondom. He alone of all Demons rules three layers, wants to unite the Abyss (a singularly unchaotic trait) and almost succeeds!!

    See also http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/outer.html#grazzt
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    Tue May 31, 2005 5:59 am  

    The connection between Pale Night and Iuz is also apparent in one of his specialty spells from the WGR books, which summons a flock of ravens to spy on someone iirc. Mayhap Pale Night tought her grandson this spell early in his career.

    Last edited by Thanael on Fri May 04, 2007 4:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:42 pm  

    Its the Asmodeus angle that I'm having more difficulty with.
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    Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:53 pm  

    On the Iggwilv/Baba Yaga front, Zavoda's index mentions Iggy's pseudonyms as

    Quote:
    Iggwilv {Igwlf}{Louhi}{Wilva}{Ychbilch}[NPC]


    though offhand I don't recall in which novel she's referred to as Louhi.

    On speculation about demonic geneaology, you might find some of the details in my article at http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=203
    inspiring.

    Even more inspiring would be reading Sepulchrave's fiction on ENWorld, in which Graz'zt's machinations feature prominently, at Epic Level play: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=58227
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    Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:06 am  

    “The witch was incredibly ancient, older even than old Iuz…Iggwilv’s infamy reached beyond Oerth to other worlds that paralleled it and occasionally touched it for a time. Ychbilch she was called on one of these worlds, Louhi on another.” Sea of Death, p. 15.

    In one of the later novels, Dance of Demons maybe, there is a big section on the Abbat-Dolor. There is a black female six-fingered demoness there, though I don't remember if she is G's sister. It was implied that Grazz't is not unique, but part of a "race" of elder demons.
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    Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:58 pm  

    Ahhh yeah, the family tree is growing just fine. Great thread.
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    Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:35 am  

    Kirt wrote:
    “The witch was incredibly ancient, older even than old Iuz…Iggwilv’s infamy reached beyond Oerth to other worlds that paralleled it and occasionally touched it for a time. Ychbilch she was called on one of these worlds, Louhi on another.” Sea of Death, p. 15.

    In one of the later novels, Dance of Demons maybe, there is a big section on the Abbat-Dolor. There is a black female six-fingered demoness there, though I don't remember if she is G's sister. It was implied that Grazz't is not unique, but part of a "race" of elder demons.


    Ha! Great find, thanks Kirt. Supposedly there is another mention in the LA novel The Anubis Murders.
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    Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:04 am  

    Louhi certainly features in the Anubis Nurders, albeit as an ending cameo. I don't think she gets an Iggwilv linkage from it, though. As a quibble, the Anubis Murders are a Dangerous Journeys era book, not a Lejendary Adventures one.

    The abat dolor princess in Dance of Demons was Princess Elazagabal (sp?) and she's the ruler of the Abat-dolor. Graz'zt was her Consort prior to taking up with Iggwilv, IIRC. Its been a while, but I think the idea was that within the Abat dolor society, the Princess outranked Graz'zt, even though he was vastly more powerful than her.
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    Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:15 pm  

    “The witch was incredibly ancient, older even than old Iuz…Iggwilv’s infamy reached beyond Oerth to other worlds that paralleled it and occasionally touched it for a time. Ychbilch she was called on one of these worlds, Louhi on another.” Sea of Death, p. 15.

    IIRC, one of the Gord Novels (Dance of Demons?) talks about a black six-fingered female demon. There was some relationship with Grazz't, family or otherwise. It seemed that Grazz't was not physically unique, but was a representative of a race of elder demons. Abbat-Dolor?
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    Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:23 pm  

    D'ohh! Sorry for the double post. Long story...
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    Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:28 pm  

    Interesting thread here. So has anyone done a family tree/ lineage line for Iggwilv/ Grazzt/ Iuz/ Drelnza yet?

    I mean with possible offshoots or even morts connection with Baba Yaga and Iggwilv?
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    Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:07 pm  

    I've got some speculation in my S4 page on my site at
    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_s4.html
    and also have some demonic lineage for Graz'zt in my Abyssal Geneaology article at http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=203

    That said, neither is comprehensive, and neither takes Iuz or Iggwilv into account (much less Iggwilv's aliases).
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    Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:29 pm  

    Excellent thread, my thanks to all posters for their input. The Grazzt family tree is most useful for my campaign. I've downloaded For Duty & Deity, and can use much of the Graz'zt material. I can also use the premise, since a group of my PCs will soon be heading into the Great Kingdom (circa early 583 CY). The convoluted preamble to that adventure with Waukeen is painful to read, but the kidnapping of a fiscal god by a demon/devil makes a lot of sense, vis a vis Zilchus being removed from the picture by "Baalzy". Good stuff, thanks again all.
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    Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:30 pm  

    Yeehaw. The latest Dragon Magazine (336) has an article on the Demonomicon of Iggwilv. It is top notch, co-authored by Gary Holian might I add. Anyhow in the brief background on Iggwilv it says she may be the issue (progeny) of Baba Yaga herself. Someone must've read this thread! Happy
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    Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:26 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    Yeehaw. The latest Dragon Magazine (336) has an article on the Demonomicon of Iggwilv. It is top notch, co-authored by Gary Holian might I add. Anyhow in the brief background on Iggwilv it says she may be the issue (progeny) of Baba Yaga herself. Someone must've read this thread! Happy


    I was wondering the same thing. Laughing I definitely like the article and the connection, wherever it came from.
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    Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:23 am  

    IMC Graz'zt is either the son of an abat-dolor chieftain (with Pale Night) or the son of Ades (mentioned in Paradise Lost alongside Orcus and Demogorgon).

    Graz'zt's brothers, also sons of Pale Night, are Lupercio (abyssal lord of sloth and the strength of darkness) and Vucarik, Scion of Chains. It's suggested that Vucarik's father may have been one of the kytons native to Minauros (the third layer of Hell), but I made him the son of J'sald Xerix, an imprisoned prince of nightmares mentioned in the otherwise mostly terrible Netbook of the Abyss.

    Pale Night is also mentioned in Paradise Lost, sort of, as Old Night, consort of Chaos. IMC Chaos is a primal Abyssal prince.

    Planescape featured a character named Rule-of-Three, the cambion son of one of Graz'zt's glabrezu spies. IMC his mother is Iggwilv, who was raped by Graz'zt's servants during her time of imprisonment in the Abyss. (That feedback loop again, but as Rule-of-Three is one of Graz'zt's heralds it adds something interesting to thoughts of the half-glabrezu visiting the court of Iuz).

    Note that Pale Night has nothing to do with Ravens outside DiceFreaks, and even there the connection is only because she has lately abandoned Baphomet in favor of Pazuzu.
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    Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:44 am  

    Looking at Grazzt's extended relationships, there is Elazalag the demon princess from the Gord books. It seems she may have initially been more powerful that Grazzt, having him as a consort, but that he eventually "outgrew" that relatonship, becoming the power that he is today.
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    Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:45 am  

    Note - The Planes folder has been closed and its threads merged with the main folder.
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    Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:55 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Note that Pale Night has nothing to do with Ravens outside DiceFreaks, and even there the connection is only because she has lately abandoned Baphomet in favor of Pazuzu.


    You're right of course. I should have mentioned that, but then again I don't know much about Pale Night aside from your Baphomet article on CF and the DF version.
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    Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:59 am  

    It occurs to me that Grazzt must have a terrible enemy/counternumber in Asmodeus.

    Grazzt sponsored/supported Iuz. Asmodeus sponsored/supported the Heirarchs of the Horned Society. We know how that turned out. If they were not aware of each other before as personal antagonists, I would think Grazzt and Asmodeus would now be so aware of each other.

    Note - The hooey about Asmodeus being Grazzt's "father" is _non-canon_ musing. And it is bad _non-canon_ musing at that. More "soap opera" Greyhawk where everybody is everybody elses long lost kin - "Dallas" with dragons. BLEH!
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    Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:13 am  

    As seems to be my role on Canonfire!, I'll chip in that Grazz't has a son mentioned in the Shackled City campaign backstory - named "Athux" (unless that is some kind of alias, very possible since he apparently spent a long time on some prime material world, possibly Oerth, impersonating an Aasimar paladin of the same name); he's six fingered, and his betrayal of Adimarchus (Demon Prince of Madness, ruler of an Abyssal layer, fallen Celestial) led to Adimarchus' imprisonment on Carceri.
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    Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:30 am  

    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/mortellan/ghfiles/infernaltree.htm

    Well here's a sorry attempt by me to make a tree of this mess. I've incorporated bits and pieces of everyone's writings/ sources/ claims as I could. I'm sure I also overlooked a bunch so anyone willing to add to/improve upon this model go for it!
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    Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:41 pm  
    My attempt

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    Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:35 pm  

    Hey Rip, where's that image from?
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    Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:38 pm  

    I made it this morning.
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    Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:40 am  

    I think i know who Za... and Mor... are supposed to be but who is You... ?
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    Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:12 pm  

    Thanael wrote:
    I think i know who Za... and Mor... are supposed to be but who is You... ?


    "Your Text Here." I didn't feel like elaborating on those generations, even off-screen.
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    Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:22 pm  

    Some notes:

    Chaos, Rumor, Chance, Tumult, Confusion, Ades, and Discord are all from Milton's Paradise Lost (as was the quote about them). Chaos' consort was called Night or Ancient Night in that book. Orcus and Demogorgon were mentioned in the same stanza.

    J'sald Xerix is from the Netbook of the Abyss. Vucarik (the Consort of Chains) is from Hellbound.

    Elazalag is from Gary Gygax's novel Dance of Demons.

    Rhyxali is from the Book of Vile Darkness web enhancement. Lupercio is from Faces of Evil: The Fiends.

    Thraxxia is Graz'zt's daughter in For Duty and Deity. Athux is Graz'zt's son in the Shackled City adventure path from Dungeon.

    Baphomet's two sons were invented by me - Sargonnas is of course named after a Krynnish god.

    Grey Shadow is the name I gave to the unnamed glabrezu father of Rule-of-Three in Uncaged: Faces of Sigil. He was said to be a spy working for Graz'zt. Un'Graz'ztaeum and Du'Graz'ztaeum - Rule-of-Three's older siblings - follow the generic cambion naming pattern from Races of Renown: Tiefling and Aasimar. The connection with Iggwilv is mine, but the connection with Graz'zt was already there.
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    Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:43 pm  
    More Fuel for the Fire

    As mentioned above, the Shackled City introduced another son of Graz'zt, a twelve-fingered demon called Athux. As GVD suggests, "For Duty and Deity" stresses Graz'zt's fecundity, so it can be assumed that there are more children we do not know about.

    Also, the Forgotten Realms adventure "Throne of Bloodstone" (H4) suggests that Baphomet was captured by Graz'zt for a time, which seems to be a relationship worth considering when exploring this topic.

    Another thread: Raxivort, the chaotic evil lesser god of xvarts, rats, and bats, did a great service to a demon "(some say Graz'zt)" and was granted powers and became that demon's Master of Slaves. Raxivort thanked his patron by robbing him blind and attempting to take over his realm. Raxivort was eventually forced to flee, but not without spoils, and he lives in the lap of luxury due to these spoils to this day.

    The first edition "Monster Manual 2" tells us that Graz'zt is an enemy of both Demogorgon and Orcus. "He was, in fact, waging a winning battle against the troglodyte, harpy, and bar-lgura. At a crucial moment, however, Graz'zt was magically taken to the Material Plane and forced into bondage by a mighty magic-user [Iggwilv--not Zagig, as erroneously stated in the "Book of Vile Darkness"]."

    The battle with the troglodytes, harpies, and bar-lgura is interesting, because it is a detail that has slipped out of many of the more recent retellings of Graz'zt's history. The particular make-up of the force strikes me as suggestive of Demogorgon's involvement, which seems to be suggested by Gygax's use of "in fact" in the sentence following the Demogorgon reference.

    The entry goes on to say "He battled free at the cost of being confined to his own plane for a century." The Gord the Rogue books also mention this century-long tenure, with the suggestion that it is just about over. The first edition "Monster Manual" might suggest why Graz'zt's confinement lasted 100 years: "Demons of Type V and above are not actually slain when their material form is killed in combat; their material form being removed from their use, the demon in question is thereby forced back to the plane from whence it originally came, there to remain until a century has passed or until another aids it to go forth again."

    It seems pretty clear that Graz'zt's material form was slain by Iggwilv in their titanic final battle. Incidentally, "Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth" suggests that Iggwilv was drained of power in this conflict (which I believe the Gord books support), so it must have been quite a show.

    Lastly, I'm suprised to learn that the WotC web enhancement says anything about the Abat-Dolor. My understanding was that the concept of a Graz'zt race (and that name specifically) came from the Gord the Rogue books, and was hence the intellectual property of Gary Gygax. That said, I can't get Acrobat to work on this crummy computer, so I haven't actually read the article in question.

    --Erik Mona
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    Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:10 pm  
    Re: More Fuel for the Fire

    iquander wrote:
    Lastly, I'm suprised to learn that the WotC web enhancement says anything about the Abat-Dolor.


    It doesn't, but that's what the Graz'zt Twins look like, nonethless. I believe Mr. Dammerung was editorializing, rather than quoting directly.
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    Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:18 pm  
    Re: More Fuel for the Fire

    iquander wrote:
    The entry goes on to say "He battled free at the cost of being confined to his own plane for a century." The Gord the Rogue books also mention this century-long tenure, with the suggestion that it is just about over. The first edition "Monster Manual" might suggest why Graz'zt's confinement lasted 100 years: "Demons of Type V and above are not actually slain when their material form is killed in combat; their material form being removed from their use, the demon in question is thereby forced back to the plane from whence it originally came, there to remain until a century has passed or until another aids it to go forth again."


    Iggwilv summoned him a second time before the century was quite up, though - the time that Graz'zt carried her back with him into the Abyss. So he ought to have been freed of his geas or whatever it was at that point. Unless that's not canon? I remember it in the Nethertome article in Dragon #225.
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    Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:16 pm  

    I have not attempted to reconcile (or even compare) the "Greyhawk Grimoires" article and Iggwilv's backstory as outlined in "Return of the Eight." Sounds like it might be a worthwhile project.

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    Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:17 am  

    Rooting around this weekend, I came across Grazzt' heraldry - a bend sinister, argent (white) and sable (black), counter changed on a field argent and sable - in Monstrous Compendium III. I could not recall having seen this set out before.
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    Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:27 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Rooting around this weekend, I came across Grazzt' heraldry - a bend sinister, argent (white) and sable (black), counter changed on a field argent and sable - in Monstrous Compendium III. I could not recall having seen this set out before.


    Monstrous Compendium III? You mean the 2nd edition MC3, associated with the Forgotten Realms campaign? That's odd.

    (Looks) Ah, no. You mean the Monstrous Compendium Annual III, under the description of the armanite (which is actually a condensed version of the armanite entry in Planes of Chaos).

    "Each armanite troupe carries an individual troupe banner and the banner of their current master or mistress, such as Graz'zt's diagonal black-and-white slash or Pazrael's golden talon on dark red."
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    Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:52 am  

    FYI. Grazzt is back! This time in Magic of Incarnum (a Q3/4 Wotc release) wherein it is revealed that one of his servitors is an incarnum user. It also appears incarnum has been a flashpoint for Grazzt vis-a-vis his feud with Demogorgon. Interesting stuff.
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    Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:12 am  

    Wow, very interesting thread. My take on Iggwilv was she was from the Baklunish west although that was based only on her description.

    I glanced at the Incarnum stuff but I didn't find it overly usable. It screamed "Exalted" comes to D&D to me.
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    Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:35 pm  

    Here's an interesting twist to this Iggwilv issue that I just discovered. Another name for Louhi is Loviatar. From what I am aware, isn't FR's Loviatar supposed to be one and the same as the one from the Finnish pantheon?

    I mean, the obvious conclusion'd be ludicrous here I'd say, but that doesn't mean we should discount this connection entirely.
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    Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:23 am  

    Idran wrote:
    Here's an interesting twist to this Iggwilv issue that I just discovered. Another name for Louhi is Loviatar. From what I am aware, isn't FR's Loviatar supposed to be one and the same as the one from the Finnish pantheon?

    I mean, the obvious conclusion'd be ludicrous here I'd say, but that doesn't mean we should discount this connection entirely.


    Interesting. I am unaware of Louhi = Loviatar in actual myth. To my knowledge, Louhi is the Crone of Pohola, a Baba Yaga-like figure, while Loviatar is a goddess, a divinity.

    Wouldn't know what FR has done to traditional mythology. Do you have a source for Louhi = Loviatar?
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    Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:11 pm  

    Hmm, I feel stupid now. Didn't think to double-check before I posted, since if valid this was an interesting twist, and from further checking it appears my original source had in fact formed a false connection. Guess I just jumped the gun.
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    Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:25 pm  

    I've seen connections between Louhi and Loviatar before, even among Finns. I think, in the end, mythology is just too self-contradictory and fragmentary to say for sure.

    In 1st edition Deities & Demigods, Loviatar and Louhi are treated as seperate figures.
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    Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:23 pm  

    Strange, I have a book alphabetically indexing 2500 deities from all cultures in the world but Loviatar is not among them. The cross index for cultures list several Finn gods not in D&DG but none sound like theyd be anything close to Loviatar. Weird.
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    Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:40 pm  

    Godchecker claims to know something about her. She's also in the Dictionary of Ancient Deities by Patricia Turner and Charles Russel Coulter.

    The entry in the latter book goes like this:
    Quote:

    Loviatar (Finnish)

    Goddess of disease. She is the wife of the wind and mother of nine monsters of disease. She is the daughter of the Lord of Tuonela (the underworld), who is also the god of death, Tuoni and Tuonetar, and the sister of Kivuatar, Kipu-Tytto and Vammater. They live in Manala. Loviatar is described as having a large face and wrinkled skin.


    The book's entry for Louhi looks like this:

    Quote:

    Louhi (Finnish)

    Goddess of evil. Louhi is a sorceress who rules the land of Pohja. According to some she bargained with Vainamoinen the magician and musician to exchange the talisman sampo for her daughter. She reneged on her bargain and allowed her daughter to marry the smith Ilmarinen, who made the magic sampo. In the Lapland version of this tale, she is the mistress of Pohjoa the sorcerer and a goddess of fog and wind.


    Pantheon.org does not have an entry for Loviatar. Wikipedia's entry for Loviatar only mentions the Forgotten Realms goddess, though the Finnish goddess is mentioned in that entry's talk page.
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    Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:40 am  

    Oh, don't take the lack of a comment on the Wikipedia site as evidence either way. There was one, as well as a reference to Loviatar on Louhi's Wikipedia page. That was my original source, but after GVD said he wasn't familiar with a connection and I went checking further, I couldn't find any evidence of one either outside of Wikipedia, so I editted their respective pages. I really should know better than to not verify something I get from there, heh.
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    Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:50 am  

    On Thursday chat, Simpi our resident Finn answered me that Louhi and Loviatar are quite likely the same. Sorry I can't be more detailed, should've logged the conversation.
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    Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 am  

    This is thread is a great resource!

    I am actually in the middle of planning out a GH campaing set around Duchy of Urnst and the Bright Lands. Now that I have a list of characters, themes etc that I want to include, I "only" need to figure out the actual plot Laughing

    As some of the things I want to include in my campaing are things such as Graz'zt, Rary the Traitor and various other movers and shakers, this thread has been a great inspiration.

    Don't let it die Happy

    EDIT: I just wanna add that Fiendish Codex: Hordes of the Abyss, gives some more info about Graz'zt and his realm.
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    Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:53 pm  

    As I am making my way through Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss, I note that there are a number of Grazzt references, naturally. Several jump out as particularly interesting but none more so, to me, than that Orcus is pushing "inexorably" deeper and deeper into Grazzt's realm.

    If one tallies up Grazzt's failures with Iggwilv/Iuz, Raxivort, Waukeen, Occipitus etc., Orcus' "inexorable" advance into Azzagrat suggests that Grazzt may have reached something of the end of his tether. Grazzt is everywhere may mean Grazzt is overextended, able to beat back Orcus' forces at Allagash but only to see Orcus advance further and further into his realm all the same, all the while being unable to reestablisgh control of Allagash or even know of its exact condition, let along stop it spewing forth undead to ravage his plane.

    Grazzt may have reached something of a limit on his ability to be everywhere and also be effective. This contrasts sharply with Orcus and Demogorgon, both of which have enjoyed more successful plots of one sort or another, in addition to the inevitable setbacks.
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