I'd be interested in a comparison of "Magical Medieval Society" with the free online article "Medieval Demographics Made Easy." How much overlap is there?
~Scott C.
Pardon but I moved this from Nuke's Obsidian Bay thread.
Scott,
IMO, both are very useful and worth having. While there is overlap, it is de minimis.
A Magical Medieval Society goes into immense detail, far more than Medieval Demographics Made Easy. But Medieval Demographics Made Easy is much more practically oriented toward use in a game. A Magical Medieval Society is so detailed it becomes unwieldly, getting in its own way.
In between there is a product that we have not mentioned - Harn Manor. It has, I think, a manageable level of detail - colorful, not bare bones, but neither is it overwhelming. Converting from the Harn system is easy enough, too, when we are not talking about game statistics but demographics.
A word should also be said about the OD&D Companion Rules that feature a fief building system. It is modestly detailed and uses a great deal of generalization and approximation but the end result gets you where you need to be - a playable fief with details a player can grab hold of.
IMC, I use the Companion Rules unless there is a specific need for more detail. I have actually rewritten those rules and expanded them, something which I will get around to writing up and submitting to Canonfire eventually.
Bringing this back around to Greyhawk, there was a discussion at a Greychat a few weeks back about demographics in which I maintained, and still maintain, that Greyhawk's human populations are too low for the society to (1) be stable given the environmental factors at work (monsters etc.) and (2) to have been able to build or develop the cultural artifacts (Cathedrals etc.) attributed to those societies. I think both A Magical Medieval Society and Medieval Demographics Made Easy support this contention. Greyhawk's population density is low, with its greatest city not topping out over 100,000 people.
In the chat, the loyal opposition advocated a "hub and spoke" theory of population distribution which would see humanity spread in thin lines or "spokes" connected at "hubs," with other areas howling wilderness where monsters populations could be realistically maintained. Monsters would literally be just outside the firelight.
I opined that if you could take out a hub or two you could isolate vast areas from reinforcement or trade (and then wipe them out) to say nothing of the ability of a thin spoke to withstand assault by itself. I immediately thought of Roarks Drift, but the lobster backs had guns versus the Zulu's spears. Not going to happen in Greyhawk; there will be no Victoria's Cross. The lobster backs of Greyhawk's Drift will wind up in humanoid stewpots or some monster's gullet. IMO, the spoke and hub theory stretches credulity past the breaking point.
I advocated for generally solidified (and larger than given) populations in nations relatively free from monsters but with howling wilderness in areas nearby or adjacent where sustainable monster populations would dwell and from these redoubts menace society. Thus, in the heart of Keoland, one would find high population levels and few monsters of the worst sort. However, in the Dreadwood, the Rushmoors etc. would exist monster populations that would keep life in Keoland from becoming medievally dull.
I think there was a general agreement that neither discussed option is really perfect but the discussion never got beyond - "We need larger populations - No we don't. Its spoke and hub - No its a more broad based settlement pattern."
Anyone rassled with this sort of thing in their campaigns?
I think a possible solution is to try and imagine, on the Darlene maps, where the roads and trade-routes might be. That's where you'll get the "civilized" monsters like bandits, merchant caravans, etc. Humans and large raiding parties of humanoids are the worst threats in these areas. The areas closest to a major road, or the capital city, are obviously going to be the safest ones.
However, in those wilder areas, any number of orc hovels and independent fiefdoms might be set up. Sure, the goblins might not set up shop on the road between Gradsul and Niole Dra, but in the wilder areas between the major trade routes, they could easily be hiding out somewhere...I see no reason why monsters like giants, fairies and humanoids cannot live in wilderness areas even deep within states like Keoland, Nyrond, Ahlissa, and all those other areas. Not all those monsters will be hostile to humans, or even dwelling in secret-having a clan of friendly firbolgs to help protect you would act as an effective deterrent against many raiding ogres, wouldn't it?
The thing about monsters is that they're not all hostile, and not all dealing with humanity. Orcs and hobgoblins are likely always engaged in some sort of bloody war with rival tribes and clans, while the humans are just as happy to let the scum slaughter each other. An orc's worst enemy is not man, or even dwarf, but an orc from a rival tribe. The humanoids are just as apt to slaughter each other as they are any human or demihuman.
Monsters like storm giants, leprechauns and pixies have their own settlements, and can suffer raids from monsters just like the humans living in 'civilized' areas. Giant clans might even have friendly relations with some humans-surely that clan of storm giants from the Yatils would make valuable military and commercial allies for Veluna?
Then there's also the matter of the more stupid or beastial monsters. Purple worms, chimeras, landsharks, giant slugs, grell, umber hulks, and others can just as happily feast on each other than the often small and stringy humans. These other monsters have more meat on them, don't come in tin cans that are a pain to chew through, and often don't have the ability to shoot magical lights that sting.
How many orcs might perish not at the hands of humans, but at the hands of umber hulks who dig into their cavern lairs? How many goblins might be destroyed by derro during a Uniting War? Trolls can perish in forest fires, hobgoblins can be bitten by rattlesnakes. Hill giants might ignore the puny human villages, that have little loot and no battle-glory attached to them, preferring instead to attack the great prize of a stone giant hold, filled with gold, silver, and more than enough worthy foes. If ogres are invading a village whose human residents suffer from disease, how will they fare against any parasites or germs they might catch?
Just like in real life, the "monster ecosystem" can probably look after itself to a certain extent. While all the various types breed often enough to have viable populations, monsters are certainly not immune to the hazards of Flanaess life any less than are humans, and are often its first victims. Of course, that obviously doesn't mean humanity can simply sit back and count its blessings... _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
This post is directed toward GVD or any else who uses the Companion Set dominion system.
I seem to having a problem interpreting the OD+D rules regarding one point. When determining population of a dominion the system gives a range of number of families per hex type (civilized, borderlands, and wilderness). The rules say that this is population per map hex. Does this refer to a 24 mile map hex or 8 mile map hex? It seems that this is most likely the latter, based on an example used later and in comparing these numbers with average number of per per square mile, but in determining resources of a dominion the rules use the 24 mile map hex. Is it just me or is this a bit confusing?
GVD, could you give me brief run-down of your modified rules?
Thanks for your help in advance.
This post is directed toward GVD or any else who uses the Companion Set dominion system. . . .GVD, could you give me brief run-down of your modified rules?
Thanks for your help in advance.
Hi Ludovico,
I'll do better. I have just submitted the fief generation system I use to Canonfire. For ease of reading and comprehension, I broke it into two parts. The whole, however, is produced immediately below. Enjoy. And don't hesitate if you have any comments, questions or criticisms.
To the Manor Born:
Fief Generation in the World of Greythawk
by Glenn Vincent Dammerung
Introduction
When your PC has achieved the status of landed nobility somewhere in the Flanaess, it is natural to ask just exactly what that means. This article will look at the specifics and provide a system of generating a fief. The system presented is an adaptation of the fief generation system originally introduced in the Companion boxed set of the original Dungeons and Dragons game. That system was subsequently reprinted in the original D&D Rules Cyclopedia. While there have been outstanding systems for fief development presented in Harn Manor and a Magical Medieval Society, both are very complex. The original D&D rules are rather simple by comparison. This article attempts to split the difference but will choose simplicity that does not bog down play over a greater detail or realism that makes play slow to a crawl. This article is not edition specific and may be used in Greyhawk campaigns that use any rules set.
Fief Size
For convenience, a basic fief is assumed to correspond to a 30 mile wide hex. In the World of Greyhawk, it may be assumed that a basic fief is the equivalent of a single hex. It is, of course, possible to have fiefs that consist of multiple hexes. A basic fief is also not necessarily limited to the lowest ranks of nobility. In a strict hierarchy, this is possible but would ignore the difference in resources and population, and thus the value, of any particular one hex fief. Ultimately, how large the fiefs of the various ranks of nobles are must be determined by individual DMs.
It is also possible to have fiefs that are smaller than a single hex. This may be done either by decreasing the available resources and population in the fief generation process or by declaring some smaller unit or portion of a hex, a hex equivalent. In the Flaneass, if a large landed nobility is sought in an area that does not possess many hexes, smaller than one hex fiefs may be the way to go. In my Greyhawk campaign, this is what I do. I also enlarge the hexes to 60 miles across. The advantage of doing this is not only to increase the possibility of a larger body of landed nobility but to, at the same time, preserve substantial areas of wilderness that await exploration or development.
All of the following will look at a one hex baseline. Simple multiplication or division will account for fiefs greater than a single hex or those smaller.
Fief Population
Once a fief has been sized, it is necessary to determine the number of families living within the area. For convenience, one family is presumed to include 5 members. The number of families within a given hex is determined by a dice roll after an initial determination by the DM based upon a categorization of the area using the following table:
It is also possible to have no families in a true frontier area.
The number of families generated represents the initial number inhabiting the hex. This number is not static but will grow over time. The number of families determines the growth rate toward a relatively stable, ultimate population using the following table:
Families_______Growth Rate Per Year
1-100_________+25%
101-200_______+20%
201-300_______+15%
301-400_______+10%
401-500_______+5%
Above 500 families a 1d6 dice roll is made to determine monthly population growth, if any, according to the following table:
1-2=5%
3-6=0%
Above 1000 families, population stabilizes and can only be adjusted by the DM.
Population growth represents both births and new families or individuals entering the area. Civilization breeds civilization.
Of course, these numbers are generalizations and might be increased or decreased in a DMs judgment based upon PC actions or reactions to events. Special circumstances may justify further increases or decreases in population at any level.
Fief Resources and Income
Once a fief’s size and population have been determined, the income that will be derived from the fief will depend on the resources that are available to be exploited. There are three general categories of resources, each of which will generate a number of gold pieces per month. Some resources are, thus, more valuable than others. This is summarized in the following table:
Animal Resources (Cows, sheep etc.) - 2gp per month
Vegetable Resources (Grains, vegetables, flax etc.) - 1gp per month
Mineral Resources (Copper, iron, tin, coal, clay, lead etc.) - 3gp per month
The total number of resources, without consideration of the type of resource, that will be found within a given one hex fief may be determined by the DM or by rolling 1d8 on the following table:
Die Roll________Number of Resources
1________________1
2________________2
3________________3
4________________3
5________________4
6________________4
7________________5
8________________6
Once the total number of resources is determined (see above), the specific type of each resource must next be determined. For each resource generated above, the precise type of resource (Animal, Vegetable or Mineral) that is present in the fief may by be determined by the DM or by rolling 1d10 on the following table:
Die Roll_____Type of Resource
1____________Animal
2____________Animal
3____________Animal
4____________Animal
5____________Vegetable
6____________Vegetable
7____________Vegetable
8____________Vegetable
9____________Mineral
10___________Mineral
Thus, if we determine that a fief has 3 resources, we next roll on the above table to find what each of the three resources actually are, in fact. This, then, tells us how many gold pieces each type of resource can be exploited to produce. Of course, it is the population, the number of families, that will do the actual exploitation or production.
Before calculating annual income, two notes need to be made.
First, annual income represents income to the landowner. It is presumed that in addition to the annual income to the landowner, each family also generates enough additional income to fully support themselves during the year. It is not possible for the landowner to reach this additional income without decreasing productivity to a degree that would offset, or worse, any additional income that might be derived. This article does not include a system for overtaxation, because it is ultimately destructive of efficient fief management. Even evil landowners want maximumly productive land.
Second, annual income is calculated using a 10 month base, not a 12 month base. Revenue that would be attributable to the two months not accounted for is presumed to go toward maintaining and improving the fief, dealing with minor setbacks and conducting the ordinary business of running the fief, excluding tithes and taxes which will be discussed later. The alternative would be a more cumbersome list of maintenance calculations. This is unnecessary. No thinking landowner, even an evil one, will allow their land and its improvements to deteriorate because revenue would thus be decreased.
With these two caveats born in mind, annual income is calculated as follows:
[No. of Animal Resources x 2gp] x No. of Families = Animal Resource Income (ARI)
[No. of Vegetable Resources x 1gp] x No. of Families = Vegetable Resource Income (VRI)
[No. of Mineral Resources x 3gp] x No. of Families = Mineral Resource Income (MRI)
[ARI + VRI + MRI] x 10 = Total Annual Fief Income
From the Total Annual Fief Income, taxes to the government or any feudal lord must be subtracted, as well as tithes to the local church(s) or temple(s) according to the following table:
Taxation = -20% of Total Annual Fief Income
Tithes = -10% of Total Annual Fief Income
After taxation and tithes are subtracted, the remainder is the land owner’s Disposable Income that may be spent as he or she wishes.
It is possible to withhold either taxes or tithes. If taxes are withheld, the government or feudal lord will immediately embargo all trade with the fief, reducing the next year’s Total Annual Fief Income by 15%; there is also a possibility of military action to depose the fief holder or to collect the withheld taxes or both. If tithes are withheld, the local clerical authorities will immediately refuse all healing within the fief and will not perform marriages or funerals; all of this may incite the local populace to be unhappy, reducing the next years’s productivity and Total Annual Fief Income by 5%, and to perhaps revolt, which reduces Total Annual Fief Income to zero. To completely avoid taxation and tithes, it is necessary to move outside the jurisdiction of any government or religion, likely a total wilderness or frontier area with only the least population.
Advanced Resources - Introduction
With the expenditure of Disposable Income, over and above standard maintenance, upkeep and improvements, it is possible, over time, to develop advanced Animal, Vegetable and Mineral resources that will produce more gold pieces per resource. There are three keys to developing advanced resources - number of resources already in the fief of the type to be advanced, Disposable Income devoted to developing advanced resources and time for the development to occur.
Advanced Animal Resources
For every 4+ Animal resources in a fief, 2 Animal resources out of the 4 can be developed into Advanced Animal resources. Advanced Animal resources take the form of furs and generate 3gp, instead of the standard 2gp that basic Animal resources generate. Development involves a careful forestry program that will provide habitat for valuable fur bearing animals.
Advanced Vegetable Resources
For every 5+ Vegetable resources in a fief, 3 Vegetable resources out of the 5 can be developed into Advanced Vegetable resources. Advanced Vegetable resources take the form of vineyards that produce wine and generate 2gp, instead of the standard 1gp that basic Vegetable resources generate. Development involves careful soil preparation and the cultivation of the grape vines.
Advanced Mineral Resources
For every 3+ Mineral resources in a fief, 1 Mineral resource out of the 3 can be developed into Advanced Mineral resources. Advanced Mineral resources take the form of gold, silver or gems and generate 4gp, instead of the standard 3gp that basic Mineral resources generate. Development involves deep delving until a vein of valuable ore is discovered. A DM may rule that it is simply impossible to develop Advanced Minerals in some locations.
Cost and Time to Develop Advanced Resources
The cost to develop any type of Advanced Resource requires the landowner to spend 20% of their Total Annual Fief Income each year for 5 years. In addition, in each of these 5 years, the landowner must successfully avoid or mitigate any Resource Disasters. Failure to avoid or mitigate a Resource Disaster means that the 20% development cost for that year must be spent but that no progress is made toward developing the Advanced Resource, adding another year to the process. If no progress is made in developing an Advanced Resource due to Resource Disasters for 3 years in a row, all time and money toward advancement to that point is lost and the 5 year requirement must begin anew. Once beginning a 5 year development cycle, if a landowner ever chooses or is forced to forego the annual 20% expenditure of Total Annual Fief Income, the 5 year cycle terminates and must be begun again.
Each individual resource is developed individually and accrues the above costs. In other words, if a fief has 3 Animal resources, each must be developed individually and each accrues the development costs set out above. All 3 Animal resources are not automatically developed together; each must be paid for individually to become an Advanced Resource. If only 1 Animal resource were successfully developed, the fief would have 1 Advanced Animal Resource and 2 basic Animal resources etc.
Resource Disasters are opportunities for adventures and roleplaying associated with resource development. The type of disaster and chance for one to annually occur on a d6 is reflected in the table below:
Animal Resource Disaster Die Roll
Raid/Poachers 1
Predator 2-3
No disaster 4-6
Vegetable Resource Disaster Die Roll
Drought/Flood/Fire 1
Blight/Infestation 2-3
No disaster 4-6
Mineral Resource Disaster Die Roll
Earthquake/Cave In 1
Underground Intrusion/Invasion 2-3
No disaster 4-6
Conclusion
The economics of fief generation presented here reflect a gold standard that I use in my campaign. Other articles that I write assume this economic standard. DMs will need to adjust downward fief income if they use a silver standard or if they use a particularly low level economy. DMs running campaigns where magic items or other extremely expensive items are regularly bought or sold may wish to increase the fief income presented above.
By way of comparison, I use an economic model that is slightly more advanced in terms of prices and income generation than that assumed in the core books. This reflects a campaign where economic activity is a vital part of the campaign, contributing to PC and NPC motivation somewhat more than the core books assume as a model. _________________ GVD
GVD,
Thanks! I like it, it adds a bit of complexity to a very basic and utile system. Using the 30 mile hex makes for a relatively very low population density. In an average borderland hex of 1000 families with a population of 5000 (1000 x 5) you have about 6.5 people per square mile. Perfect for my intended setting- Blackmoor.
GVD,
Thanks! I like it, it adds a bit of complexity to a very basic and utile system. Using the 30 mile hex makes for a relatively very low population density. In an average borderland hex of 1000 families with a population of 5000 (1000 x 5) you have about 6.5 people per square mile. Perfect for my intended setting- Blackmoor.
My pleasure.
What is not accounted for are large urban areas. I thought about that but figured that was best left to the DM to assign based on what they wanted in a city or town. This is mainly for PC fiefs.
Btw - Cool choice of where to play - Blackmoor. Lots of cool resources and if you use 3E, there is Frostburn! _________________ GVD
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
