Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - City of Greyhawk map layout
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    City of Greyhawk map layout

    Greyhawk map preference...
    The Gord Map
    26%
     26%  [ 4 ]
    2nd Edition City of Greyhawk
    66%
     66%  [ 10 ]
    I have my own option (please detail)
    6%
     6%  [ 1 ]
    Total Votes : 15

    Author Message
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 20, 2002
    Posts: 164
    From: England

    Send private message
    Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:26 am  
    City of Greyhawk map layout

    Before commencing my planned map of Greyhawk City I thought I would sound out what this community thought of the options out there;

    Do you prefer the Gord version of the city, or the 2nd edition City of Greyhawk?

    The Gord map is larger but since I dont have these books Confused too help me, but this map has a more Gygaxian feel to it obviously.

    The City of Greyhawk map is very "pretty" but I have seen villages with more houses, and I really dont feel that it has a city feel to it at all, let alone the premier city in the Oerth!!

    My personal preference is a combination of the two, the loose layout of the Gord map, with the City of Greyhawk locations shoe-horned into it.

    Anyway I throw the question open...
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 22, 2001
    Posts: 103
    From: Montevideo (Uruguay)

    Send private message
    Sun Nov 30, 2003 9:05 am  

    Hi,

    Could it be possible, for us who donīt have access to the Gord books, and without violating any copyright, that someone post at least part of that map in order to compare it with the 2nd ed. GH city map?

    Just a thought,
    Gabriel
    _________________
    Discord: @GrillWizard
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: May 07, 2003
    Posts: 14
    From: Salt Lake City, Utah - USA

    Send private message
    Sun Nov 30, 2003 9:11 pm  
    Boxed Set Map

    I have always used the maps in the boxed set. They are detailed so well and they work great in conjunction with the Folks, Feuds and Factions and Greyhawk: Gem of the Flanaess books. These products might be old, but they still work very well.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 20, 2002
    Posts: 164
    From: England

    Send private message
    Mon Dec 01, 2003 2:36 am  

    Quote:
    I have always used the maps in the boxed set. They are detailed so well and they work great in conjunction with the Folks, Feuds and Factions and Greyhawk: Gem of the Flanaess books. These products might be old, but they still work very well.


    Storm, this is the 2nd ed version I was referring too. But don't you feel that for the biggest city on Oerth, Greyhawk looks like a small market town?

    Carlanco. Heres a link to a map of Greyhawk as per Gord...
    http://members.aol.com/CultOfTheDragon/map.html
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 22, 2001
    Posts: 103
    From: Montevideo (Uruguay)

    Send private message
    Mon Dec 01, 2003 6:05 am  

    I've always used the maps of the boxed set too, and now seeing the map in the link, I will definetly continue to use them! :)

    I think I read somewhere (don`t remember where) that someone took the trouble to count the houses on the boxed set map, and then divide the population of the city showed in "A Guide to thw WoG" by that number. The amount of persons by house was ridiculous!
    _________________
    Discord: @GrillWizard
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 20, 2002
    Posts: 164
    From: England

    Send private message
    Mon Dec 01, 2003 7:54 am  

    Thats my point carlanco, the boxed set Greyhawk looks a total joke when you consider the population of the city of 58,000-65,000 people, excluding refugees from the Greyhawk Wars that must easily add another 10,000. The Gord map is at a much smaller scale, with the city being 15 miles in height (north/south). Admitedly this is too big but a sprawling metroplis with permanently smoke filled skies, dark alleyways and pleasent open courtyards seems more in keeping with my impression of Greyhawk, not the representation shown in the boxed set.

    btw; it would be interesting for someone to count the number of buildings in the boxed set and work out the average number crammed in each one, my guess is 50+ Shocked [/b]
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: May 07, 2003
    Posts: 14
    From: Salt Lake City, Utah - USA

    Send private message
    Mon Dec 01, 2003 8:17 am  
    2nd Ed. Map Works Well

    No, I don't think the boxed set maps looks like a small market town. I also use the maps of cities provided in the 2nd Ed. module Fate of Istus. Compared to those cities, Greyhawk is bigger. Greyhawk is also pretty dense and I don't think everyone is crowded inside the walls. Manors, farms and other properties exist as a part of the Free City from the Gnarley Forest to the Cairn Hills. The Gord map is way, way too big. That's too much to manage.

    I guess the scope of the 2nd Ed. boxed set maps works for our purposes. Our PCs do not live or play in or near the City of Greyhawk, which measures how relavent my comments are.

    I would, of course, look at any map and then implement the elements I like and disregard those I do not like. So, I will support any effort to update the Free City.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 1425
    From: Wichita, KS, USA

    Send private message
    Mon Dec 01, 2003 9:01 pm  

    I'd like to recommend Maldin's GH city maps to anyone who likes the 2e maps: he updated them for LGJ#2, and they're also available on his web site at http://www.timebomb.on.ca/denist/greyhawk/cogh.html (warning, the pages takes awhile to load, the images files on there are quite large).
    _________________
    Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 20, 2002
    Posts: 164
    From: England

    Send private message
    Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:25 pm  

    Thanks Grodog I've been searching for that link Happy

    The new Greyhawk I was thinking of was based heavily on the 2nd ed Greyhawk, but with the size of the city increased to reflect the larger size I feel the city deserves. Without sounding like a stuck record, I still feel that the map currently doesnt look urban enuff for my liking Confused

    What I was trying to sound here with this poll, was there any ground swell of opinion to include some of the Gord elements into the map?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3807
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:25 am  

    I'd rather see the Gord version of the map mainly due to the fact that it follows more closely Gary's vision of the city, and because the 2nd ed. map already exists. I'd like a more realistic version, with an appropriate number of sprawling buildings.

    The 1st edition boxed set lists Greyhawk at 58,000 residents inside the city walls, with a total population of 75,000 if the people living outside the walls are also included. This census is also based around CY 579, long before the massive resettlement of refugees and others as a result of the Greyhawk Wars. From the Ashes list the population at about 66,000 with around 10,000 refugees having fled to the city during the Greyhawk wars. The 2nd ed. map doesn't even remotely give the impression of housing over 70,000 people. Greyhawk is a sprawling city roughly 3 miles by 5 miles in size. A real, and very massive city. It would most accurately compare with the size of London during the High Middle Ages/early Renaissance. So that is why I'd rather see the Gord map. Besides, the layout of the districts is more sensible on the Gord map and in particular the inner gates/portals.

    That's about it.

    ---Brian


    Last edited by Cebrion on Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jul 28, 2001
    Posts: 539
    From: on the way to Bellport

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:28 pm  

    On Greytalk I once posted a comparison of the approximate lengths of selected city and towns of the Flanaess (which I gained by reviewing old maps).

    Greyhawk City was the largest I found, at 5,600 ft.
    Dyvers was ~4,800 ft.
    Hardby was at 2,600 ft.
    and the other Wild Coast towns were somewhat smaller.

    These measurements seemed sensible in relation to each other, however, I lack knowledge of medieval cities and hence the ability to judge whether a city of 5,600 ft. length could possibly house the number of people specified.

    My comparison also turned up a few serious discrepancies:
    Highport measured the same length as Greyhawk City!
    the village of Skorane was almost as long as the city of Safeton (1,900 to 2, 000 ft.)

    tSB's cities may (or may not) fit in well
    Ekul 3,200 ft.
    Hesuel Ilshar 2,800 ft.
    Kro Terlep 2, 400 ft.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 20, 2002
    Posts: 164
    From: England

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:19 pm  
    City Size

    Well to give a historical context, take the example of Roman London (Londinium). At its height it had a wall length of 2 km (about 6,500 feet) and had a population of approx. 45,000 people in the late roman era.

    So to answer your question, would a 5,600 feet walled City of Greyhawk hold a population of 58,000 plus refugees etc, then the answer would be probably no unless they were dwarves living in very tall towers Laughing

    Kind of makes the Gord version of the city make more sense Question
    Novice

    Joined: Jan 06, 2004
    Posts: 1


    Send private message
    Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:39 pm  

    I recently ran across a map of the city of Greyhawk online that I liked.

    http://www20.brinkster.com/urudnd/ghmmaps/fcog.htm
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jul 28, 2001
    Posts: 539
    From: on the way to Bellport

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 11, 2004 11:02 am  

    Hey Yabusama, please tell us more about ancient London.

    Was it a well-planned city? Did it contain any section comparable to Old City? Basically I'm wondering if we can retain the canon size of GH City but indicate that it's terribly overcrowded and in need of expansion. Do you know the "width" of ancient London? Perhaps GH City covers more acres or square kms?

    What do you think?
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 20, 2002
    Posts: 164
    From: England

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:37 am  

    A short history of Londonium for you...

    The beginnings of London can be dated with some exactitude to the invasion of the Romans in 43AD. Prior to the Roman invasion there was no permanent settlement of significance on the site of London. Instead, the Thames River flowed through marshy ground sprinkled with small islands of gravel and sand. There were probably more mosquitoes than people inhabiting the area.

    The commander of the Roman troops was one Aulus Plautius. He pushed his men up from their landing place in Kent towards Colchester, then the most important town in Britain. The Roman advance was halted by the Thames, and Plautius was forced to build a bridge to get his men across.

    This first "London Bridge" has been excavated recently, and found to be only yards from the modern London Bridge!

    The Roman bridge proved a convenient central point for the new network of roads which soon spread out like a fan from the crossing place and allowed the speedy movement of troops. The Roman settlement on the north side of the bridge, called Londinium, quickly became important as a trading centre for goods brought up the Thames River by boat and unloaded at wooden docks by the bridge.

    Just 18 years after the arrival of the Romans, Boudicca, queen of the Iceni tribe of present-day East Anglia, launched her rebellion against the new rulers of Britain. The new trading centre of London was one of her primary targets, and her warriors leveled the burgeoning city to the ground and killed thousands of the traders who had begun to settle there.

    The city was quickly rebuilt, with a cluster of timber-framed wooden buildings surrounding the imposing Roman civic buildings. The city continued to grow in size and splendor over the next century, reflecting the increasing importance of trade in Britain.

    By the middle of the second century AD, Londinium possessed the largest basilica (town hall) west of the Alps, a governor's palace, a temple, bathhouses, and a large fort for the city garrison. Gracechurch Street, in the City, runs through the middle of the old Roman basilica and forum (market place).

    One of the best Roman remains in London is the 2nd century Temple of Mithras (mithraism was a form of religion popular among Roman soldiers). It was found near Walbrook during construction work in this century, and moved to Temple Court, Queen Victoria Street. Artefacts recovered from the excavation of the temple are now in the Museum of London.

    About the year 200 AD a defensive wall was built around the city. For well over a millennium the shape and size of London was defined by this Roman wall. The area within the wall is now "the City", London's famous financial district. Traces of the wall can still be seen in a few places in London.

    London continued its growth under the late Roman Empire, and at its peak the population probably numbered about 45,000. But, as the Roman Empire creaked its way to a tottering old age, the troops defending London's trade routes were recalled across the Channel, and the city went into a decline which lasted several centuries.
    Encyclopedia Greyhawkaniac

    Joined: May 29, 2018
    Posts: 1462


    Send private message
    Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:47 am  

    If you measure it out I believe the City of Hawk's Greyhawk city map is more 6 miles by 9 miles. For a time I thought this was too big but now I don't even want to try to put down a size for the city.

    I like Gygax's version of the city much more than the 2nd ed boxed set, but I find that I dont want it tied down to a street by street, house by house map. I want the city of Greyhawk to be vast and as big as I need it to be without specific definitions. I want the Slum Quarter to be a labyrinthine maze where the inhabitants can disappear within its ruined and decaying buildings and the players easily become lost amid the dark and intertwined alleys and narrow byways choked with trash and debris.

    The 2nd edition version is not alone much too small but feels colorless and false. Even the vast improvement done by Maldin suffers from the general bad design and pokiness presented in the 2nd ed boxed set.

    I base my City of Greyhawk on the feel of Lieber's Lankhmar, the sense of danger and decay from Thieves World some of the more grim reality mixed with adventure and enchanment from Gygax. So, City of Hawks for me.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 14, 2006
    Posts: 301


    Send private message
    Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:20 pm  

    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.29 Seconds