Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - Print GH, Electronic GH, CF, Canon and You (Long)
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Print GH, Electronic GH, CF, Canon and You (Long)
    Author Message
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:27 am  
    Print GH, Electronic GH, CF, Canon and You (Long)

    There is a precedence accorded authors whose works are published in print that is not accorded authors whose works are published electronically.

    Used to be this made complete sense because the only way an author’s work would find an audience was if it was printed. The advent of the internet, websites that permanently archive an author’s work and PDF only publishing have altered this equation _somewhat_ because there are now ways for an author’s work to find an audience if it is solely published electronically.

    Does print still have advantages? Sure. Print is more durable as it has a physicality electronic publications lack. Print has historically had a greater audience as well. Print is also invariably a “for profit” proposition and people will tend to value something more that they have paid more for as opposed to something that cost less or was free, and electronically published materials are generally cheaper or free.

    The physicality of printed products is not absolutely or uniquely synonymous with durability, however. Backed up electronic materials may be as durable as print. Of course, an electronic publication requires a reader, a computer of some sort, that a printed product does not. With increasing miniaturization, portability and wireless connectivity, however, it is arguable that this distinction is less than it used to be.

    While it is fair to note that e-books, or electronically published books, are far less popular than print books, it is also fair to note that gaming products are not books in the same sense. They are rules with background material designed to facilitate the play of a game. While an e-book analogy would be damning to granting electronically published materials greater currency, the analogy is not entirely apt.

    That printed materials have a greater audience is also suspect, for two reasons. First, to look at just the potential audience available, print cannot be said to unequivocally have the greater potential audience in today’s era of PDAs, Blackberries, laptops and cellular telephones that increasingly include read/write functions. Second, within the realms of games and within the subset of fans of a particular setting like Greyhawk, the available audience is reduced to a fraction of the total audience that needs to be reached or reachable.

    Greyhawk is not an actively supported setting. The 3E default is Greyhawk but purchasing a 3E product that utilizes the Greyhawk default does not make the purchaser a Greyhawk fan, not even casually. They may or may not be. The most that can be said with certainty is that the purchaser will be exposed to some elements of Greyhawk, at least in name. Living Greyhawk does not produce products; it provides play opportunities. Living Greyhawk does, however, produce Greyhawk electronic materials with the authority of the Living Greyhawk sanction, however one may choose to view that sanctioning authority.

    The electronic publication of Greyhawk materials sanctioned by Living Greyhawk suggests that, for now, for a number of Greyhawk players, electronic publication has a viability and validity approaching that traditionally only accorded print publications.

    But returning to the question of audience, given the limited number of D&D fans specifically interested in Greyhawk in more than a casual way, I think it open to some question whether printed materials would or will necessarily reach more of this fan group - Greyhawkers.

    If electronic materials have a durability approaching print, and I note that many contributions to the now passe AOL Greyhawk folders are preserved as well as posts to the now largely gauche Greytalk discussion list, and if access to the specific audience of more than casual Greyhawk fans is available electronically with an ease that can be seen to be approaching that of print, however far along it may be, the perceived higher value of print issue seems to be all that still separates the two media by a wide margin.

    Certainly, there is a perception that printed materials are more valuable or have a greater validity than electronically published materials. You will pay more for printed materials. That, however, hardly translates into any guarantee of quality or utility. Everyone has experience with poor print products for which they paid money. If then the value issue that favors print is as much perception as anything else, it is hardly a reason to deny to electronically published materials a fair appraisal on their own merits.

    Two other factors, however, come into play - IP holder sanction and peer review.

    IP holder sanctioning is the logo. It says “Greyhawk” right on the cover, something else does not. End of story? Not quite. IP holder sanction comes in a variety of forms. The Greyhawk IP holder has sanctioned its own use of Greyhawk. It has sanctioned Dungeon and Dragon magazines to make similar use of Greyhawk and tolerates the Dungeon going farther in cases such as Castle Maure and the Age of Worms, although still within sharp limits. The Greyhawk IP holder has sanctioned Living Greyhawk websites to use the Greyhawk IP. It tolerates fan websites such as Canonfire to use the Greyhawk IP as well. In the last instance, it is more than arguable that Canonfire most frequently produces or displays new materials dealing with Greyhawk It is a fact.

    However, before leaping to the conclusion that Canonfire topical submissions should be accorded a more than de minimis weight as compared to printed Greyhawk materials, one must address the peer reviewed nature of printed and electronically published materials. Printed materials, which are invariably offered for sale, are also invariably edited, a form of peer review as most editors of games are themselves gamers of one sort or another. Electronically produced materials will usually lack such peer review.

    The Oerth Journal is edited but that editing is, as I understand it, more related to grammar than content. This may be contrasted with any published book or magazine where the grammatical editing process is secondary to an approval process that looks toward content, although not with uniformly superior results in some cases.

    Canonfire topical submissions are formated by the Canonfire staff. They are not edited for spelling, grammar or content. They are unreviewed prior to electronic publication.

    However, Canonfire submissions do undergo an after the fact peer review that can be withering. The commentary functionality, as well as the Reader’s Workshop forum, provide critique of Canonfire submissions.

    In most cases, a Canonfire submission will go largely uncommented upon, although this is changing with comments becoming more frequent, I believe. Of those comments made, most will be neutral to positive. Some comments will, however, be notably critical. To say that Canonfire submissions go entirely unreviewed is, then, untrue. It is only true that they are not reviewed in the same manner as printed materials.

    What then to make of the persistent regard accorded printed materials over and above that of electronically published materials?

    Certainly, print continues to hold a primary position in most peoples minds. Certainly, electronically published “fan” materials are held in much lower esteem.

    I do not suggest that printed materials be disregarded. I do not suggest that electronically published materials be placed on an equal footing with printed materials. Yet. I do suggest that electronically published materials not be immediately disregarded in favor of printed materials. Printed materials are no guarantee of quality. The vast majority of new Greyhawk material is not seeing print but is being published electronically. These two factors alone, to me, suggest that electronically published materials be given some consideration, even in the face of printed materials.

    Canonfire, I believe, is fast approaching a turning point. The number of topical submissions is reaching a level where, in between divergent views on a variety of topics, can be seen an emerging CF canon, still forming but still detectable. It is not a canon in the sense of print canon, which operates by fiat - it is printed therefore it is -, but rather by consensual input of the participants to the discussion, of which there are thousands who have registered as Canonfire members, even if everyone does not read every topical submission. And it is not the number of submissions alone.

    The breadth and scope of the Canonfire topical submissions is reaching to encompass more of Greyhawk and potential Greyhawk than anything in print has attempted. Already eclipsed or at least equaled in discussion are the seminal 1983 Boxed Set and From the Ashes. Only the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer remains a more exhaustive treatment of the setting. Of course, the Canonfire submissions are not organized accept in the most rudimentary fashion, and it is then easier to dismiss them as nothing more than a collection of odds and ends.

    Everyone who participates in the Canonfire message boards, who makes topical submissions, who participates in the Greychats and who contributes to the administration of the site deserves credit for what Canonfire is and is becoming.

    In this environment, is it wise to enshrine print authors, whomever they are, in derogation of Canonfire’s own contributors?

    Print authors certainly deserve the credit they have earned. But does this credit have to come at the price of the derogation of electronically published authors? What point does that serve? Why is it necessary that for print authors to be given the credit they deserve, electronically published authors must be run down or ignored? In our present environment, I don’t see this making sense.

    The greatest Greyhawk author most regularly producing Greyhawk materials is the group or community called Canonfire. I do not believe this is open to dispute. Respect for that community is respect for ourselves. At the very least, enough respect to recognize the accomplishments of Canonfire’s membership.

    It is easy enough to find fault with someone’s tone, with someone’s opinion etc. There is nothing wrong with that. It should not, however, obscure the greater issue which is the success Canonfire is enjoying and the work of its members that made this possible and the fruits of those labors we now all partake of.

    I suggest to you that there is an emerging new environment in which the print author, who previously wrote without substantial feedback, certainly not immediate, and who did not have to share the stage with electronic publications, must now amend their behavior or attitudes in the face of the new reality that they do not so entirely hold the reigns of “canon” in their hands as they once did. When they will not do this and will demand a pride of place that is no longer so fully justified, they are then interlopers disruptive of a community far more regularly productive than they are. If they would join the community, that would be ideal. If they wish to absent themselves from the community, that is their choice. What is unacceptable is a demand that the community uncritically accommodate them.

    Electronic publication is increasingly closing the gap with print publishing. Canonfire is the most prolific producer of new Greyhawk materials. I think this something to bear in mind. The old notions of precedence no longer hold as true as they once did.

    IMO
    _________________
    GVD
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2004
    Posts: 666


    Send private message
    Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:38 am  

    Having been involved in publication, both print and electronic (albeit not as an author myself), I can say pretty confidently that electronic publishing is nowhere near the market penetration of print publication in gaming currenly. Even in narrow niche markets.

    Ars Magica, for instance, is a niche game with a relatively tight community. The canonfire equivalent (Project Redcap) is actively supported by the publisher (who hires many of its active contributors as freelance authors, amongst other things). And yet Project Redcap and the mailing list and the ezine all fail to reach across the whole community. There are plenty of poeple to be found on the various ArM forums that have little familiarity with any of that. And otheres that actively dislike the supposed influence of the 'mailing list fan clique", etc.

    And Atlas Games has a much tighter target audience than GH and dramatically less marketing power than WotC. At this point, and for the foreseeable future, something that Wizards' actually publishs will have a far wider audience than canonfire does. Not all GH fans come here and anything WotC publishes (even if they started doing GH publications again) would reach a wider audience than just GH fans.

    I think that, particularly with GH not on WotC's publication schedule, there is little reason to worry about whether some is "published" officially or not. In that sense, I agree with you. Canon's only value is as a guide for formal publication (and we all know how ineffective it has been for that). Each DM can, should, and does decide what material (canon or not) to use in his or her own campaign.

    But canonfire neither does, nor wants to provide any coherent development of the game world. It publishes all articles that meet its criteria, regardless of whether they 'get along' with other printed articles. For instance, there are multiple takes on elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc published here (though, oddly, not of halflings as far as I can tell). Further, anything formally published is done with the explicit idea that future works build on that (whether they do or not, is of course, variable). Whereas a number of canonfire authors DO NOT want their material used as a basis for other individuals' publications. Or only want to support that on a case by case basis.

    So if you are arguing that people should go by quality rather than by "officialness", I agree. If you are asserting that Canonfire is more valuable to GH continuance than WotC at this point, I'd agree with that too. But if you think canonfire has or will have the exposure or adoption rate of WotC material, I think you are quite mistaken.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:57 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    So if you are arguing that people should go by quality rather than by "officialness", I agree.


    Yes.

    Vormaerin wrote:
    If you are asserting that Canonfire is more valuable to GH continuance than WotC at this point, I'd agree with that too.


    Yes.

    Vormaerin wrote:
    But if you think canonfire has or will have the exposure or adoption rate of WotC material, I think you are quite mistaken.


    Doesn't that depend on what Wotc material we are speaking of?

    Presently, there is no Wotc Greyhawk material seeing print that is Greyhawk before anything else. Canonfire thus has something of a corner on the market.

    On the other hand, were Wotc to begin producing Greyhawk material, and if it sold more than 3,000 units per product, I would agree with what you say without hesitation. If less than 3,000 units sold, I might not be so certain.

    My point, however, goes beyond this.

    I think there is a trend and I think that trend favors the increasing viability of electronic publishing as compared to print. Print still carries the day, everyday, but not as assuredly or by as wide a margin as it once did.

    My point is not to suggest that anyone abandon print but rather that we appreciate the increasing role electronic publishing is playing and can play, even moreso, in the future.

    Print will never go away. I think it has been, and will continue to be, diminished in the future. At some point electronic publishing may all but pull even or nearly so. At that point, print will matter not that much more than the electronic medium. Okay. It won't happen tommorrow. Cool

    Canonfire, I think, is in the vanguard of what we may see a great deal more of. Perhaps, the example you cite of Ars Magica is an even better example, where electronic and print work together in a whole larger than the sum of the parts. Its all good. Smile

    We should mention as well the Traveller community that works extensively in the electronic medium, and with official sanction creates canon - electronically. What I suggest is no more far fetched.

    As many of us in Greyhawkerdom come from The Land Before The Internet, I think we naturally have a tendency to overlook the electronic publication frontier of which, I believe CF is and can be a part.

    I can see the day when Canonfire lives up to its name - creating canon. We are not there yet but needlessly disparaging the electronic author in favor of the print author goes too far, IMO. (Not saying you did or do that!)

    IMO Happy
    _________________
    GVD
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2004
    Posts: 666


    Send private message
    Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:59 pm  

    If you are just making a general "technical advances in media will alter presentation of material in the publishing industry" point, that's a no brainer. Already many folks sell pdfs of material and such.

    I don't have webtraffic information for canonfire or informaion on how many copies of things like OJ are d/led, so I can't really comment on your figures. But I do know that canonfire does NOT reach all of the greyhawk fans out there and especially it does not reach D&D fans with no previous GH experience.

    *IF* WotC were to produce additional GH material, it would have wider uptake than anything produced for Canonfire. "Everyone" at canonfire would get it, the GH fans who do not come here would get it, and some number of other D&D fans and complete gaming noobs would get it.

    The thing with fan sites and fan material is that the consumer has to be actively looking for them in order to find them. Heck, Project Redcap --which is advertised in every ArM book-- does not reach the full player base for the game. Canonfire does not get that kind of support from the producer...

    The other issue with your suggestion is that fact that canonfire is simply not set up to distribute fan material in a user friendly fashion. Its a wonderful archive of material. But the fact is, if I want to pick up Taras' "Guide to the Sud Graufelt" or chatdemon's "Lore of the Suel" or mortellan's Ull sourcebook, I'm gonna have to spend a lot of time and effort picking through the archives for bunches of 1 or 2 page articles. Just as importantly, I'm not even gonna know they are there! Not unless I spend time playing with the search function.

    And canonfire is better organized than most fan sites. So I respectfully disagree with your point. Unless someone is insane enough to completely redo canonfire's archiving and unless our authors are willing to start producing "weightier" material (for instance, doing all the work to turn the individual Sud Graufelt articles into a full blown e- sourcebook), this site is not going to have the community impact you seem to be envisioning. And people like Taras and chatdemon and all the rest are not going to get the recognition their work merits.

    Canonfire is a great place and does (and has long done) yeoman's service for the community. But there is still a big leap from where we are to what you are talking about.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 19, 2003
    Posts: 33


    Send private message
    Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:59 am  

    Respectfully, what is the point?

    We pick and choose what we like from whatever source we like. Without WotC's sanction it will never be canonical, regardless of origin.

    There is no meaningful weight to any ranking not endorsed by the owner of the property -- it serves only to discourage people from making their own choices regarding campaign material.

    Regards all,

    Jack
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 23, 2004
    Posts: 1212


    Send private message
    Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:36 am  

    jwb3 wrote: “There is no meaningful weight to any ranking not endorsed by the owner of the property -- it serves only to discourage people from making their own choices regarding campaign material.”

    I am an existentialist and so cannot agree with that. There is too much GH material, fan and formal, for my small brain to fully digest I and readily appreciate the analysis of other’s, particularly those truly deserving of the title Grey Sage. I want my GH to be consistent with the “true history”, whatever that is, even while I reserve the right to diverge for playability or whatever other reason. I chose to give weight as I see fit and the opinion of others helps me make my choices. If WotC came out tomorrow with some absurd notion like, the documented GH content over the past 25 were but a bad dream of the Overking, and here for only $50 you can buy the real deal, I would not buy it.

    Given the state of fan and formal GM material, I would welcome the informed well reasoned opinions of armatures over any half-baked disinterested musings of an officially recognized clock-puncher, should I ever be presented with that choice.

    That being said, I would re-endorse giving weight in character as GDV suggested in the prior post. Even half-baked disinterested musings deserve some weight, if for no other reason than to apologetically incorporate and rationalize them into the “true history”. An NPC sage analyzing all the sages that addressed a particular topic may be just the springboard to adventure I need. Thinking about it, I recall that 1e GH module are full of rumors sections that perform the same function. It would just be up to me to put in the T/F based on the recommendations of others.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:43 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    The other issue with your suggestion is that fact that canonfire is simply not set up to distribute fan material in a user friendly fashion. Its a wonderful archive of material. But the fact is, if I want to pick up Taras' "Guide to the Sud Graufelt" or chatdemon's "Lore of the Suel" or mortellan's Ull sourcebook, I'm gonna have to spend a lot of time and effort picking through the archives for bunches of 1 or 2 page articles. Just as importantly, I'm not even gonna know they are there! Not unless I spend time playing with the search function.

    And canonfire is better organized than most fan sites. So I respectfully disagree with your point. Unless someone is insane enough to completely redo canonfire's archiving and unless our authors are willing to start producing "weightier" material (for instance, doing all the work to turn the individual Sud Graufelt articles into a full blown e- sourcebook), this site is not going to have the community impact you seem to be envisioning. And people like Taras and chatdemon and all the rest are not going to get the recognition their work merits.

    . . . But there is still a big leap from where we are to what you are talking about.


    You, sir, are a Gentleman and a Scholar. Happy I agree with the above entirely and without reservation. Happy You have made my point better than I did. Cool

    It is the potential I see and you have, IMO, identified probably the chief impediments that will need to be overcome with time.

    We are not there yet. But the potential is, I believe, there. We just have to figure out how to get there as we move forward.

    Onward and upward Exclamation

    Happy Cool Happy
    _________________
    GVD
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1077
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:49 pm  
    well

    Well, this is all great stuff. But I think a little premature. As one sits back and considers what Canonfire is and can become, one must consider first what it is not.

    It is a wonderful resource, one for which I am thankful.. Gary, Issak, et.al., thank you.

    It is, and can become a fantastic resource of ideas (sometimes conflicting) for a person's Greyhawk Campaign.

    It could become a database of impressive flexibility and versatility, allowing cross examination of not just articles, but the words within those articles.. allowing significantly easier and more accurate searches and eliminating some of the need for classification.

    It could become a focal point for the entire GH community as more and more seek out info online, and realize the ease engendered by the internet.

    That, and several other things are fantastic.

    Lets look at what it is not...

    It is not stable... its continuation beyond Gary depends upon someone reading a will he recently wrote and mailing them to Dethhand. While it is nice that this accomodation was made... and none of us wish misfortune on Gary, it is not really a succesion plan.

    It is not a legal entity... it is Gary Holian (as far as I can tell) and those that volunteer to assist him. This a) limits any money from being raised, b) exposes Gary and possibley those that assist him to legal action and liability (Not that WOTC would ever pursue such Smile )

    It is dependant upon the good work habits of Gary (if i understand correctly, he pays for the server out of his pocket), and his continued gainful employment.

    Before we get into print vs electronic, annuals, t-shirts, etc, I think we should, as a community, step up and help Gary and all the others make this a permanent location.

    To do this I would suggest the following:

    The creation of a Not For Profit Corporation and securing chartered recognition from the IRS of this status. Then, securing of suffient resources (ie. money) to assure the permanent home of CF, be it on a commercial server, a private server, or both. Then, provide suffucient structure so as to have a succession plan for the future, so if something happens to GH, or he simply wants to take a break for a while, it can continue.

    All this would of course require his approval, but this seems as good a place as any to start the ball rolling.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 12, 2002
    Posts: 33


    Send private message
    Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:37 am  

    A superb example of the trends being discussed here is Kirt Wickford's piece in OJ16. In his article on Keoland, he examined the different treatments given certain topics (particularly Vecna) by different authors, whether those authors' works were print or electronic publications. I thought it an exceptionally thoughtful, scholarly analysis that did not criticize fanwork because it is not "canon," but simply explained the various works and expressed an opinion. It's pretty rare that the endnotes of an article are as interesting as the text, but I hope to see more of this in the future.

    The other difference between print and electronic material that I don't think has been mentioned is the prestige of the publisher. As an initial matter, it says something about an author's work that someone else is willing to spend money to publish it. Thus, printed material has the endorsement of financial investment (of 000s of $$) by the publisher (in addition to the $15-30 investment by the end user).

    Who decides to publish it also distinguishes the work. In the academic world, having your book published by Oxford University Press is distinctly better than having it published by Podunk University Press. More people pay attention to what OUP publishes, and the credibility of its authors is increased by the OUP endorsement.

    Something similar probably occurs with Greyhawk, the imprint of WotC (setting aside the IP ownership) lent more weight to a work than (perhaps) Dragon, and Dragon lent more weight than (perhaps) Dungeon, which is better than OJ, which is better than Canonfire (I'm just guessing about some of this, but the relative status seems at least plausible). The number of people who want to publish with a particular publisher, combined with the number of authors the publisher is willing to publish, affect how much influence that work will have; in short, selectivity breeds influence. [Perhaps at the top of the pyramid is Gygax himself - who wouldn't want his seal of approval?]

    In this sense, electronic publications of fan work could gain a sort of "canon" status. The oldest publishers are often the most prestigious. I think the Oerth Journal is on its way along this path. I don't think Canonfire has a sufficiently rigorous editing process (and no pre-publication peer review as has been noted) to develop along these lines. It does provide a forum, however, for contributors to develop their own grass roots reputations. There are some posters whose work I respect as much as Sargent's or Mona's. This is probably the publishing development most unique to the internet.
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
    Posts: 342
    From: Ohio

    Send private message
    Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:39 am  

    Righto.

    Well, honestly the nice part about Fan published material is that its free, you pay nothing for it and you can use what you want from it w/o being stuck with the "written canon".

    Now, the nice thing about Canonfire is that you have a community that generally enjoys the same material (albiet some from differing ages of that material). Here we have a sharing board, and on the IRC channel on (psionics.net, #greytalk) we often look over each others works and offer possibile edits before the work hits the press, so to speak.
    While this may not be for everyone, the material shared within the community is a wealth far beyond any one book, or shelves of books.

    That said I still enjoy most all published Greyhawk works, for whatever content they have and the easy adaptability of the setting. This doesn't mean I like them ALL, just that I enjoy that the setting still has its fanbase even after all these years.

    More Later...
    _________________
    Cheerz,
    -Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
    Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
    http://www.oerthjournal.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 12, 2001
    Posts: 188
    From: Hanover Park

    Send private message
    Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:53 am  
    However...

    >I don't think Canonfire has a sufficiently rigorous editing process (and no pre-publication peer review as has been noted) to develop along these lines. <

    A rigorous editing process would alienate many contributors. One of the joys of forums such as this site, Greytalk, and the Oerth Journal is the ability to share our own visions for Greyhawk unfiltered.

    However, there are times when the feedback of others change our own opinions of what Greyhawk (or at least our articles about it) should be. A pre-publication peer review network would be vital for making sure that no products of rushed thought or ill-thought construction make it to Canonfire. Yet, even though there is a forum for that on this messageboard and I have myself urged people to use Greytalk as such as forum, the sad fact is that people are not sharing articles with a wide audience before submission and when they do people are not reading them. The articles are read once they are published here on Canonfire, and there are amply diverse people giving comments here on Canonfire to fuel much post-production thought.

    Sadly, there are almost no examples I know of where revised articles have been submitted in place of the originals. Such a process is fairly labor intensive anyway, requiring deletions and additions made by volunteer editors already strained to upload new reading material. Something that would make revision easier, and hopefully peer review more feasible and better utilized, is if authors had the ability to go into their own articles and edit them at any time after their publication at Canonfire.

    The trade-off, I suppose, would be a security issue. Perhaps authors could decide whether or not to accept this function, then be prompted a second time for their password before editing. I am no computer expert, but I believe this is technically possible...

    ~Scott C.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 487
    From: Cooke City, MT, USA

    Send private message
    Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:56 am  
    Re: well

    Anced_Math wrote:
    its continuation beyond Gary depends upon someone reading a will he recently wrote and mailing them to Dethhand. While it is nice that this accomodation was made... and none of us wish misfortune on Gary, it is not really a succesion plan.


    What's this all about?
    _________________
    What would Raxivort do?<br />
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:39 am  
    Re: However...

    Scottenkainen wrote:
    A rigorous editing process would alienate many contributors. One of the joys of forums such as this site, Greytalk, and the Oerth Journal is the ability to share our own visions for Greyhawk unfiltered.

    However, there are times when the feedback of others change our own opinions of what Greyhawk (or at least our articles about it) should be. . . .

    Sadly, there are almost no examples I know of where revised articles have been submitted in place of the originals. Such a process is fairly labor intensive anyway, requiring deletions and additions made by volunteer editors already strained to upload new reading material. Something that would make revision easier, and hopefully peer review more feasible and better utilized, is if authors had the ability to go into their own articles and edit them at any time after their publication at Canonfire.

    The trade-off, I suppose, would be a security issue. Perhaps authors could decide whether or not to accept this function, then be prompted a second time for their password before editing. I am no computer expert, but I believe this is technically possible...

    ~Scott C.


    Good points all the way around! Smile

    I know I immediately recall one submission where I would make a change based on feedback, but I do not wish to bother the CF admins with what to most would be a minor change.
    _________________
    GVD
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
    Posts: 342
    From: Ohio

    Send private message
    Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:32 pm  

    Not speaking for anyone else, but I usually edit others works for them and vice versa at least, those who frequent the #greytalk channel.

    As for editing, Don does most of the editing and does a wonderful job imho. If you feel you have a work that needs a look over, ask someone for help. Otherwise, yes it will only get edited twice. Its really kinda pointless to point the blame at the editing poster, when you have the capability to have others edit it beforehand as well.

    Many such as Greyson, Cebrion, Dethand, mortellan, and myself have no problems taking a look over others work before online publication. To me thats a decent start for an editing board.

    So really, the first step is up to you. Its like submitting your work anywhere else. If you don't have friends, family or peers edit or look it over first, when you go to publish of course there will be errors. Now in the real publishing world, this would mean the editor would either send it back to YOU to edit your mistakes first, OR they'd reject it.

    Take advantage of the community as a whole, ask others to look it over you trust, then publish. Even if it makes no sense to them, they can still find little grammatical, spelling, or read-ability errors, which you as the writer might miss.

    Anyway, a BIG Kudos to Greyson for all the Hard Work and Time he puts into articles here! woot woot!
    _________________
    Cheerz,
    -Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
    Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
    http://www.oerthjournal.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 487
    From: Cooke City, MT, USA

    Send private message
    Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:54 am  

    Duicarthan wrote:
    Anyway, a BIG Kudos to Greyson for all the Hard Work and Time he puts into articles here! woot woot!


    And since we get overlooked so often, let's thank me, Abysslin and Montand, as well as the handful of other editors who have done the same duty in the past.
    _________________
    What would Raxivort do?<br />
    Kobold Pinata

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002
    Posts: 92
    From: Melbourne, Australia

    Send private message
    Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:09 am  

    chatdemon wrote:
    Duicarthan wrote:
    Anyway, a BIG Kudos to Greyson for all the Hard Work and Time he puts into articles here! woot woot!


    And since we get overlooked so often, let's thank me, Abysslin and Montand, as well as the handful of other editors who have done the same duty in the past.

    Hey, does that mean I get thanked for all that I've done?

    I mean, without me, there would be no need for moderators...
    _________________
    In more modern times, only Delglath of Rinloru is known to have crafted any items from the stone of this atrocious place. Even masters of the dark arts such as Xaene and Karoolck would hesitate to follow.
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.96 Seconds