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    Canonfire :: View topic - Gradsul
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    Gradsul
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:06 am  
    Gradsul

    Can somebody give me a little info about the city of Gradsul? I don't have access to most of my books right now, and the few that I do have don't have any good detail on what type of environment PCs would encounter if they entered the city.

    My campaign is set in early 583 CY, so I'm most interesting in any NPCs of note who would be in the city at that time, what faction(s) is/are in power, etc... BUT I'll take any info I can get, of course.

    Any help greatly appreciated.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:30 pm  
    Re: Gradsul

    btgrover wrote:
    ...any NPCs of note who would be in the city at that time, what faction(s) is/are in power, etc... BUT I'll take any info I can get, of course.


    I believe Drawmij's undersea stronghold is just off the coast of Gradsul. I don't know much more than that.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:44 pm  

    The Keoland pdf has a section on the Duchy of Gradsul...Unfortunately, it can't be copy-and-pasted, so you'll have to download it...
    Kwint
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    Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:06 am  
    Re: Gradsul

    btgrover wrote:
    Can somebody give me a little info about the city of Gradsul?


    This may sound heretical but if you intend a campaign to center on Gradsul you might consider taking a look at Eberron's Sharn: City of Towers sourcebook. By no means is Sharn Greyhawkish as presented but is a fascinating city presentation all the same and could be made to fit Greyhawk with some work.

    Sharn is a fantasy New York City/Coruscant (Star Wars) - a city of skyscrapers/towers - some upwards of a mile high. It has a given pop of 200,000 but could accomodate at least several multiples of that number, realistically. It is highly magical and dependent on magic to function. As I said, some work is required to "grey" it.

    Gradsul, along with Gyrax, are two of the most promising places to place Sharn in GH, if one were so minded. Sharn, as presented, is a "gateway" city - a jumping off point to little explored lands. Both Gradsul and Gyrax fit this bill with respect to the Amedio, Hepmonaland and points south. I have considered adapting Sharn but have not done anything concrete in that regard.

    With Greyhawk on "hiatus" for the most part, I think it an interesting exercise to see what might be adapted to GH. Sharn would be on my list.
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    GVD
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    Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:31 am  

    It might be more useful to think about Gradsul's characteristics (very large sea port at the mouth of a large river, with trade contacts with the south, east and central Flanaess, major naval port and traditional seat of the House of Rhola; balmy warm temperate/subtropical climate) and lay a foundation for how it might appear and then cherrypick similar aspects from Sharn rather than trying to Hawkify Sharn wholesale.

    P.
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    Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:08 pm  

    Woesinger wrote:
    It might be more useful to think about Gradsul's characteristics (very large sea port at the mouth of a large river, with trade contacts with the south, east and central Flanaess, major naval port and traditional seat of the House of Rhola; balmy warm temperate/subtropical climate) and lay a foundation for how it might appear and then cherrypick similar aspects from Sharn rather than trying to Hawkify Sharn wholesale.

    P.


    Actually, I'm more in favor of a wholesale effort. Sharn is a terrific creation, albeit a bit over the top for Greyhawk. I think I would look for ways to incorporate its idiosyncracies as much as look for ways to tone it down. Again, I would not do this unless Gradsul was to be the campaign focus. With all respect to those who have created fantasy cities, too often they are less than fantastic. Rather than see another quasi-medieval/renaissance city exercise, if I were going to run a city adventure, I'd swing a little more for the fences.
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    GVD
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    Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:53 pm  

    Actually GV, they're just passing through on a trip southward - but I like that Sharn idea so much, I'll see if I can find that sourcebook for a good price, and develop it. Big cities fascinate me, and I particularly want to impress upon my players the distinct architecture and aesthetics of the various geographical areas they visit across the Flanaess. Sharn sounds like it would leave an indelible impression...

    Meanwhile, what Prata and Kwint gave me is just what I needed. Drawmij has recently gone missing in my campaign, and the city would certainly be buzzing w/ this news. The heavy Suel heritage is perfect, as they're on the (cold) trail of a group of Brotherhood monks who raided the Lost City of the Suel in the Suss Forest and made off with... well, the PCs don't know what just yet. Maybe they'll get a lead here - or maybe they'll never make it out of Gradsul. :)

    Thanks fellas.
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    Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:48 am  

    btgrover wrote:
    Actually GV, they're just passing through on a trip southward - but I like that Sharn idea so much, I'll see if I can find that sourcebook for a good price, and develop it. Big cities fascinate me, and I particularly want to impress upon my players the distinct architecture and aesthetics of the various geographical areas they visit across the Flanaess. Sharn sounds like it would leave an indelible impression...


    I have been more impressed with the Sharn book than almost anything I've seen from Wotc in recent memory. It is very creative, interesting and flavorful.

    Sharn is part NYC, part Coruscant, part Casablanca, part Victorian/Edwardian London, part old Cairo, and yet the whole feels organic, not just a chop-shop of bits.

    Over 100 city districts are described. In each district (with a few exceptions), at least one or two specfic businesses, locales, organizations or establishments with (usually) at least one NPC is described in brief detail. There is also an undercity that is described. Plus there are sections on laws, customs, holidays/events, trade, politics, religion etc.. While the maps are not the best, the detail is the best I've seen for a city since the old Lankhmar product from TSR.

    I'd give Sharn 9 out of 10 stars. Something that good begs to be translated to GH, IMO.
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    GVD
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    Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:43 pm  

    I pretty much disdain anything Eberron but GVD waxes on so poetically about Sharn I might just have to check it out.

    Sounds like it might be a great city to place in Greyhawk's version of Constantinople. Somewhere between Sufhang and Zahind... I always imagined a nation that was a mixing pot of cultures in such an area and it would be pretty cool to have a huge exotic city there.

    Sounds like a lazy DM's dream book. (Which is why I will definitely check it out.)
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    Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:57 pm  

    Hmmmm....

    The problem with Sharn is that it's too like Coruscant. Too like New York. Gradsul never struck me as either. And it certainly never struck me as being the Constantinople of the Flanaess. A big and vibrant cosmopolitan city, yes. The Queen of Cities? No.
    It's Antioch or Alexandria (though perhaps without the Library) or perhaps more accurately, Genoa or Venice (wthout the canals) . It's not Constantinople and I don't think it's Sharn either. Sharn's just too bling, too influenced by high fantasy and the modern idea of the city (I mean floating towers and vast undercity foundries?). That's why I think you can cherry pick, but to import wholesale just wouldn't work in relatively low magic Greyhawk and especially in Keoland where they don't really like magic getting out of hand too much. Sharn might work for somewhere in the west or a glimpse of what the cities of the Suel Imperium were like, but it doesn't work with down and dirty Greyhawk.

    But that's me. If it works for you, then go for it. <shrug>

    P.
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    Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:23 am  

    Anything I use for my campaign I end up overhauling to suit my needs anyway, so I'm sure I'll find a lot of use for it. Just picked it up off half.com, should have it in a week or so. I agree it sounds a little too 'exotic' for Gradsul, but my PCs are really pinballing around the Flanaess right now (Gradsul is just a waystation on their way to Port Toli, and from there who knows), so I have no doubt I'll find good use for this. Thanks for the recommendation, GV.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:39 am  

    Lassiviren wrote:
    Sounds like it might be a great city to place in Greyhawk's version of Constantinople.


    Yes. Exactly. Very big. Very exotic and a fantastic melting pot.

    btgrover wrote:
    Thanks for the recommendation, GV.


    My pleasure. :)

    Woesinger wrote:
    That's why I think you can cherry pick, but to import wholesale just wouldn't work in relatively low magic Greyhawk and especially in Keoland where they don't really like magic getting out of hand too much. Sharn might work for somewhere in the west or a glimpse of what the cities of the Suel Imperium were like, but it doesn't work with down and dirty Greyhawk.

    But that's me. If it works for you, then go for it. <shrug>

    P.


    In line with a Gradsul option would be a Gyrax option. Perhaps, Greyhawk's Sharn is Gyrax and the dwarves (notable builders and possible mages in 3X) are responsible for its construction?

    Want to go a bit further afield? How about Narisban in the Olman islands? An Olman creation? Something older? Certainly, these islands are at a trade crossroads.

    More to Lassiviren's Constantinople point, perhaps Lopolla in Ket? Big city between east and west. It would be necessary to make the river there navigable far inland but otherwise it could work.

    Rel Astra? City of Stars? Sort of fits the imagery. There would need to be more exotic trade developed to pass through Rel Astra, however.

    Iron Gate? With heavy emphasis on the forges (made to be dwarven in GH) of Sharn, this might work, but is perhaps not the best fit, again for a lack of more exotic trade.
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    GVD
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    Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:00 pm  

    If you want something approaching Constantinople in the known Oerth - then I'd plump for Zeir-i-Zeif in terms of wealth, size, opulance, foreign trade, political importance and age. By comparison, Lopolla is a dusty caravanserai. :)

    That said, as Constantinople was thought to have up 1 million inhabitants at the height of its glory - there's no city in GH that can touch it.

    Irongate is a better candidate for adopting Sharn type elements - though please gods, no lightning rail and hovering towers! That said - Maldin has a very nice map of Irongate on his site.

    Gryrax is also possible, given the dwurish influences...

    P.
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    Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:03 pm  

    I have always imagined Gradsul to be a bit similar to New Orleans. It is placed in the humid, subtropical delta of the mighty Sheldomar. Crumbling buildings centuries old divide the city into well defined quarters. Since the growth of Gryrax as an international port of call, Gradsul has become quite provincial. As often as not, ships sail up the Sheldomar to Jurnre or even Niole Dra to avoid the many thieves and cutpurses that swarm the docks. Silt is an everpresent problem. Docks become silted up and useless, and many empty piers lie surrounded in the muck. The city's life is heavily dominated by the many southern nobles who prefer to live in the city rather than their humid, swampy estates. The nobles enjoy having a good time and many places of entertainment abound. Parades pass through the streets on each festival week. People throng from all across the Sheldomar Valley to partake in the increasingly notorious festivals.
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    Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:58 am  

    Woesinger wrote:
    If you want something approaching Constantinople in the known Oerth - then I'd plump for Zeir-i-Zeif in terms of wealth, size, opulance, foreign trade, political importance and age. By comparison, Lopolla is a dusty caravanserai. :)

    That said, as Constantinople was thought to have up 1 million inhabitants at the height of its glory - there's no city in GH that can touch it.


    Thats not a bad idea either perhaps it would make a good source for the largest city in Komal. I agree that it probably is much too exotic to plant into the Flanaess (although I haven't even looked at it yet!) airships, floating towers, and lightning rails kinda preclude that.

    My other thought is that if the Suel conquered part of Zahind/Changar at some point perhaps the largest city there would have some trappings of the Mages of Power still operational.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:26 am  

    Hmmm . . . New Orleans . . .

    Interesting.

    I know Gradsul has a number of significant elements that are quite similar, including the port, the river, the climate, and the roguishness.

    I think the main differences would be the racial element, Gradsul is pretty much a Suel city in the regard as House Rhola was never into slavery, and the lack of bayous nearby, the Gradsul area is pretty open in that regard.

    However I doubt Gryrax has replaced it, or that ships would pass it by.
    Gryrax still doesn't have the access to Keoland that Gradsul does. And the Duke could easily "insist" that ships that want to pass it by stop over for more "thorough" customs inspections. Better to just make port, deal with the rogues, and then go upriver if you want to.
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    Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:12 am  

    For the cultural mix, I was thinking Monmurg would be more like New Orleans although it seems far enough away from the Javan and Hool.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:17 pm  

    Yeah, Monmurg would have that kind of mixing with all the Olman.
    I'm not sure it would have decent relations between the races though.
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    Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:34 pm  

    My perspective is pre-Wars, just cuz IMO SB everywere is absurd. With that in mind, I dont' know about the decent relations either, but just based on my understanding of American slavery, things were quite different in the city and big house comparted to what they were on the plantation. There is also the work of Jeon II trying to outlaw slavery. So I would be inclined to nudge them that way. Even if relations were not decent, there can be pretence and a lot of flavor.

    There would be Rhola as well as Toli influence. I would probably also add in to a lesser extent influence of Touv, Flan and Oeridian as populations of the Hold.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:27 pm  

    Its not that, it is just that most people, even the Rhola, well and truly despised the Olman, slaves, free, or not. That's why the mixed subculture would be so repressed.
    Suel, Oeridian, and Flan mixes would do well enough, but not the Olman.

    Oh, and extremely few, if any, Touv in Monmurg. The SB went to southern Hepmonaland, no one else should really know about them.
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    Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:50 am  

    I did not know that about the Touv, or that the Olman were truely dispised so broadly, although I have seen some hints to that.

    But that could get back to what I was saying about pretense and its application only to one location. In New Orleans you have a lot of blood mixing. In Monmurg you could have the same. The offspring, whether slave or free would be more capable of "passing" at least culturally.

    But as in New Orleans with voodoo, there could be that hidden subculture. To the Suel, the equivalent of Mardi Gras/Carnival might seem quaint and harmless- an excuse to party- but it could have real spiritual meaning for the normally proper domestic who says her prayers while cutting the head of the chicken for the master's supper. She might get a beating if caught doing that, but otherwise be treated nices, praised in public, even if they talk bad about her behind her back.
    CF Admin

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    Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:54 pm  

    Hey folks.

    Sam, please tell us more about the Rholan disregard for the Olman. Did this involve ancient unholy Olman - Toli alliances or more recent perceptions of Olman as only savages or slaves?

    I think the Rholan peasants likely feature more of Flan ancestry than citizens of Gradsul. The relatively few people with Olman ancestry (mestizos / mulattoes?) in Gradsul likely are members of the poor--dockhands, rivermen, and rogues with recently former Olman slaves not fitting in well (perhaps becoming pirates?).

    Prior to the GH Wars, the Seolders may have had the legal right to regain their liberated slaves who fled to Gradsul? What do you think?
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    Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:26 am  

    I too would love to read more about it, but here is what Sam wrote in The Rhola and the Toli: the Battle for Jeklea Bay: “It was during [The Wars of Sanduchar] that numerous freed Amedi slaves were taken into service by the Duke of Gradsul, forming the Duke’s Amedi Corps, fighting against the slavers that had long preyed upon them. It was also during this time that the Rhola were exposed to some of the worst among the Olman, and they were soon being regarded as little better than the Toli, a bias that remains to the current time.”
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    Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:24 pm  

    As noted, the Rhola trusted the Amedi Suel more, and picked up their hatred of the Olman.
    Of course you can say that is blatantly unfair as the Amedi are just as bad, if not worse, than the Olman in many ways. And you'd be absolutely right. That's why it is prejudice - because it is irrational.

    As for regaining liberated slaves, I'd say absolutely not. The Rhola may utterly despise the Olman, but they find slavery even more morally reprehensible.
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    Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:48 am  

    I suppose another factor to consider is just why the Amedi Suel hate the Olman. That might give insight into the Suel generally. They have been fighting for almost 1000 years. I would venture to say it is because the Olman are threatening in a way that is hard to understand insofar as their motivations are alien. The Amedi Suel generally are evil. The Olman likely are some strange mix in the nature of their gods where CE can be LG, or something like that.
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    Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:22 am  

    The amedi and suel have been at war for 1000 years but that doesn't mean actively, I see the conflict after the intial contact bogging down into a raiding conflict resulting in long periods of tense undeclared cease fire with perhaps some clandistine trade possible, even some rare interbreeding.

    As for why the conflict continues, while the "alieness" of the olman belief system is a factor, the suel fleeing would consider themselves vastly superior to the primitive olman in their eyes given the suels cultural bias they felt entitled "blond man's burden" to build a new society.

    The olman simply fought to preserve their land and freedom, an alignment reason is not neccessary.

    For both sides over time the conflict became societially ingrained as both sides further "demonized" the enemy and glorified their heroes while espousing the reason for war resulting in the conflict being passed down through the generations. (ie:N.Ireland and Balkans)

    To maintain the bitterness, the conflict until recently remained in stalemate with all the latent anxiety and societial angst that produces within the populace. It was this very anxiety the SB used to inflame the the suel sense of superiority to rekindle the conflict which has allowed the suel, with SB backing to gain the upper hand driving the olman further into the interior.
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    Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:51 am  

    I don't think I disagree with your understanding, except possible that the interbreading would be all that rare. Rarer than most other places, very likely. But it is a complicated issue. 1000 years is such a long time for "savages." Your references to N. Ireland and the Balkins is worth looking into to help explain that. I wonder is there is a real world analogy with comperable technology.
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    Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:58 pm  

    In my game the Amedians (Amedio Suel) are all but dead. Either through strife, disease, or rampant slavery they are pretty much unknown except for the hill people settlements along the Hellfurnaces.

    The thought of a pampered society making a go of it in the Amedio, (or even bothering to migrate that far) was pretty ludicrous to me.

    The farthest south I have them migrating (as per the SB book) is the north bank of Matryeus Lake and that was pretty much the largest and last tribe of them that settled in the jungles.
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    Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:23 am  

    Wolfsire wrote:
    Your references to N. Ireland and the Balkins is worth looking into to help explain that.


    I assume by that he meant the kind of atavistic "I hate you because we've always hated you and that's just the way it is" mentality that keeps those kind of conflicts going long after the actual historical origins of the conflict lose direct relevence.

    Case in point: N. Ireland Unionists marching to celebrate the victory of William III at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690 and N. Ireland nationalists getting upset about it. The Glorious Revolution has long since ceased to be relevent, but both sides use it as a basis to dislike the other.

    Sililarly the Amedio and the Olmans probably have their own tales of the perfidious wrongdoing of the other that keep the hatred between the two simmering.

    I agree that the Amedians wouldn't be terribly numerous and that they'd have suffered serious die off, but if enough survived in Hepmonaland to set up "cities", the proximity of the Amedio to the Imperium means that they're likely to be there in some numbers too - though perhaps as you say in the cooler, and perhaps less pestilential hill country. It's possible that there were small Suel settlements on the east side of the Hellfurnaces before the Rain. They'd have been outposts and fairly low tech, but they might have been the basis of an Amedian hill society - though not after some serious conflict between the "native" dwellers and the influx of refugees, with coups, breakdown of order, village-scale warlordism etcetc.
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    Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:25 am  

    Woesinger: "It's possible that there were small Suel settlements on the east side of the Hellfurnaces before the Rain. They'd have been outposts and fairly low tech ..."

    I'd say that it is more than possible, that it is almost canon, and should be strongly presumed for the lost city of Terabar. I would disagree with the idea that they are fairly low tech, at least at the time. Whether any survived the Twins, or kept any technology is another matter.

    I address the flip side, Olman in the west in my article "The Olman Invasion of the Suloise Imperium: Cause of the Twin Cataclysms?" I submitted it a little over two weeks ago, so hopefully it will be on line soon. I think there are about 5-10 article in front of it. It addresses the module UK6.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:40 am  

    Low tech?
    High tech?

    Just what are people referring to here?
    The Suel Imperium was mostly likely early iron age (Rome about the time of Augustus) at the time of the Twin Cataclysms. Granted, dropping down to late copper age/new stone age is pretty harsh, but they were hardly a bunch of Renaissance city dwellers, never mind 20th century city dwellers, suddenly thrust into savagery. They were, in many respects, barely above savages themselves. They would have suffered severely in the Amedio, but they would hardly have been incapable of surviving and adapting to having less metal available.
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    Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:07 pm  

    Re tech, I did not have anything particular in mind other than that which civilization brings or is brought by civilization.
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