Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
One of the founders of our hobby and one of the most unsung contributors to Dungeons & Dragons, Len Lakofka has passed away at the age of 76.
Along with the many adventures, classes, spells, and rules he created,
Len was also father of the Suel in Greyhawk, designer of their gods, and namesake of the Lendore Isles.
The value of his work goes without saying, but his presence will be sorely missed. The adventures of Leomund go on.
Len Lakofka 1944-2020
[DISCUSS]
Features
Touring the Flanaess
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly Denizens
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - Demihumans More Widespread Than Orginally Thought!
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- D&D 3.0e/3.5e/d20/Pathfinder
    Demihumans More Widespread Than Orginally Thought!
    Author Message
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 22, 2005
    Posts: 113
    From: Orland Hills, Illinois

    Send private message
    Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:31 am  
    Demihumans More Widespread Than Orginally Thought!

    I started playing with the LGG again. So, I break down the percentages of races and came up with some interesting numbers of populations.
    For each race is the largest population recorded (headcount, not percentage) and the country this is found in. The winners are S

    Centaurs
    10,000 (2%) Paynims, Plains of the

    Dwarf, Hill
    104,988 (19.5%)Ulek, Principality of

    Dwarf, Mountain
    56,532 (10.5%) Ulek, Principality of

    Elf, Gray
    11,931 (29.1%) Lendore Isles

    Elf, High
    60,830 (43.45%) Celene

    Elf, Sylvan
    212,074 (8.1%) Nyrond

    Elf, Valley
    2,500 (25%) Valley of the Mage

    Gnome, Rock
    108,000 (6%) Keoland

    Goblin
    78,546 (3%) North Kingdom

    Halfling, Lightfoot
    345,249 (9%) Ahlissa

    Halfling, Stout
    130,910 (5%) Nyrond

    Halfling, Tallfellow
    13,533 (1.8%) Urnst, Duchy of

    Half-Elf
    125,504 (32%) Ulek, Duchy of

    Half-Orc
    42,768 (9%) Bandit Kingdoms

    Hobgoblin
    70,000 (10%) Iuz

    Orc
    315,000 (45%) Iuz

    How what impact do you all think these groups make back onto other areas of Flanaess? I chose this approach rather than percentage because it is normally easy just to say "well they are a significant influence in the country they live in."
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 11, 2003
    Posts: 83
    From: Ulek

    Send private message
    Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:26 pm  

    Quite awhile ago (I can't remember why, but I had a reason at the time) I did a spreadsheet brekaing down the Human, Elven and Dwarven population by kingdoms. I think I was doing a comparison of elven and dwarven populations and added the humans as a base.

    For the Flanaess the totals were

    Human: 27,921,630
    Elven: 1,391,833
    Dwarven: 680,934

    Oh, and...

    Half-Elves: 338,046
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 22, 2005
    Posts: 113
    From: Orland Hills, Illinois

    Send private message
    Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:51 am  

    For example in the Duchy of Ulek, with 32% of the population being Half-Elf, that shows that there is either a lot of racial tolerance, irresponsible intermingling, or perhaps a population that is becoming a race of its own. What do you get when two half-elves get children?
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 06, 2005
    Posts: 39


    Send private message
    Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:46 am  

    also, elves live longer than humans. so one elven male with a 'thing' for human females could literally sire hundreds or even thousands of half elves in his life time. given the generation time difference between half elves and humans, his bastard half elven progeny could sire dozens of quarter-elves, etc.

    this is still somewhat true even if the elf is faithful to each human mate in her lifetime. lets say his average wife lives 50 years and has five children. if the elf has a 1000 year breeding lifespan, thats 20 wives potentially and 100 children.

    bottom line, even a strictly monogamous elf could throw off an enormous contribution to the country's gene pool.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 18, 2004
    Posts: 218


    Send private message
    Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:54 pm  

    NathanBrazil wrote:
    For example in the Duchy of Ulek, with 32% of the population being Half-Elf, that shows that there is either a lot of racial tolerance, irresponsible intermingling, or perhaps a population that is becoming a race of its own. What do you get when two half-elves get children?


    Mathematically, a quarter-elf. Wink

    I hate to go to another world for the answer, but the majority of half-elves in Eberron are considered a distinct subspecies, born to half-elven parents. I can't imagine this being impossible in certain areas of the Oerth.

    Telas
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 07, 2003
    Posts: 176


    Send private message
    Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:40 am  

    Telas wrote:
    NathanBrazil wrote:
    What do you get when two half-elves get children?


    Mathematically, a quarter-elf. Wink


    Noooooooo Laughing

    Seriously, it's still a half-elf, mathematically. 1 part human/1 part elf + 1 part human/1 part elf=2 parts human/2 parts elf=half-elf.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2004
    Posts: 666


    Send private message
    Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:54 am  

    A child of two half elves is a half elf. For game purposes in in one of those 'races of' books the rule basically worked out that if there was less than 50% elf blood, the character was human. If there was *any* human blood and at least 50% elf, then the character was half elf. So a 7/8ths elf was a half elf by D&D race. While a 7/16ths elf was human.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 23, 2002
    Posts: 46
    From: Texas

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:40 am  

    So how much "elf" has to be mixed in before the offspring becomes "elf" again? Three-quarters? Nine-tenths? Inquiring geneticists want to know.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 18, 2004
    Posts: 218


    Send private message
    Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:20 am  

    Ask your DM?

    Laughing

    Telas
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 18, 2002
    Posts: 58
    From: Baltimore, MD, USA

    Send private message
    Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:08 pm  

    airwalkrr wrote:
    So how much "elf" has to be mixed in before the offspring becomes "elf" again? Three-quarters? Nine-tenths? Inquiring geneticists want to know.

    99/100ths elf, is still Half-elf. There really is no way to make an elf once you go down the human line.

    The rule is:
    <50% elf is human. >50% but <100% elf is half-elf.

    ROB
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jul 28, 2001
    Posts: 485
    From: on the way to Bellport

    Send private message
    Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:44 pm  

    This idea of the purity of elf-ness is redolent of the old (yet persistent) notion that a person's racial whiteness is forever lost if s/he has even a drop of "black blood" - the rule of hypodescent.

    I think this racist idea may represent the grey olven idea about their racial purity but think that the high and sylvan olves refute it.

    In game rules, I'd say that the child of two half elves is half-olven. If a half-olve and elf or human had a child, I'd use the race appropriate to that character's upbringing, i.e., if raised amongst humans, the "quarter-elf" would be "human," if raised amongst elves, the "three-quarters-elf" would be an "elf."
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 07, 2003
    Posts: 176


    Send private message
    Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:55 pm  

    That's nice and all, but the issue was resolved, BTB, in AD&D2. Mixed elven heritage <50% human = half-elf. >50% human = human. That is the BTB rule.

    This matters because it has game-rule implications. Racial abilities, ability mods, aging, etc are all governed by the character's species, or race as it is imprecisely, but themeatically correct, called in the rules.

    Both of the half-breed demi-humans are born of humans and humanoids. This also affects what happens to them in the afterlife and how to bring them back from there, ie, can't cast resurrection on a humanoid.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jul 28, 2001
    Posts: 485
    From: on the way to Bellport

    Send private message
    Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:28 pm  

    Hi Andy. I used to like the Deities & Demigods distinction between souls and spirits. You likely recall that humans, demi-humans, and humanoids all had souls, except for elves, which had spirits.

    I forget how 2e treated that old distinction but 3e seems to have dropped it, i.e., Raise Dead works on elves. I think it's fine if one wants to keep it; it provided good flavor and puts elves closer to fey (although Raise Dead apparently works on fey too in 3.5e).

    Leaving aside the rules but keeping the soul / spirit conceptual distinction in mind, it makes sense to me that a half-elf would have a soul (and free will). Recalling Elrond's children, I'd likely posit that a half-elf + elf mating produces a child that can "choose" spirit or soul, perhaps at a coming of age ceremony. I think the birth default would be soul.

    Back to NathanBrazil's original post, the most surprising one to me are all those sylvan olves in Nyrond, "212,074 (8.1%) Nyrond"!
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 07, 2003
    Posts: 176


    Send private message
    Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:59 pm  

    mtg wrote:
    Hi Andy. I used to like the Deities & Demigods distinction between souls and spirits. You likely recall that humans, demi-humans, and humanoids all had souls, except for elves, which had spirits.


    Humans and demihumans have souls. Humanoids and everything else have spirits. And elves, alone among the PC races, are humanoids. That's how it worked.

    Anyway, I keep the distinction in my 3E house rules. Actually, I made demi-human a sub-type of humanoid. I found it the smoothest fit with the ruleset. All the demihumans also retain their original sub-type, so a dwarf is a humanoid (demihuman, dwarf). A drow is a humanoid (elf).

    I was toying with the idea of making most of the AD&D humanoids fey instead, but I'm not sure how that will interact with the rest of the rules.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3772
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:55 pm  

    WOW!!!

    That is a LOT of half-elves!!!

    Wilt Chamberlain could take some lessons from the elves of Greyhawk! Laughing

    If one constructs a very simple genetic chart for half elves one in 4 will be a true elf, two in four will be half-elves, and one in 4 will be a true human. However, any results are always beholden to the "DM Fudge" rule. Of course. Wink
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- D&D 3.0e/3.5e/d20/Pathfinder All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum


    Forums ©


    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.38 Seconds