If anything, I would have thought its history with smugglers, haunted houses, lizard folk, and sea devil attacks would have actually discouraged too much immigration beyond normal population growth!
I'm not sure I follow this. General increases in the populations (of which much more could be done) do not necessarily mean that any given community needs to have been bigger. Saltmarsh, as described, hardly seems likely to be surging in population. Marginal agricultural terrain, geographically isolated, no special resources. Seems like large town is about where it'd stay without some major shake up.
I meant the general increase in overal population numbers of every city and country in the LGG. Keoland went from 300K to 1.8M population. Hookhill went from 4,500 to 7,500 population. If Saltmarsh was boosted the same way, it would be close to a small city instead of just a large town.
And as I said, having been conquered by the SB, I expect its population suffered significantly from that.
Sorry to interrupt, but would you say the DMG II is worth to be bought for its Saltmarsh content? - I mean, set aside the *pollution* of the setting, is the city detailed to a level at which one can really make use of it?
Yours,
Rafael
If you are following James Jacobs vision of Greyhawk, I think the answer is "yes." Jacobs designed the DMG II Saltmarsh. He also (co?)designed Sasserine in the Savage Tide Adventure Path in Dungeon. Jeklea Bay is, then being substantially expanded within WoG by James Jacobs.
Like any DM, James Jacob's vision of Greyhawk is unique unto himself. Unlike any DM, James Jacob's vision is being published and then accorded some greater dignity as "canon," if that matters to you.
Personally, I like what he is doing, particularly the map just published in the latest Dungeon of the area around Sasserine. Where FtA substantially constricted the Hold of the Sea Princes as an adventure incubator, James Jacobs, and I believe Erik Mona, are working to make the general area once again an area, much like the Wild Coast once was, one that can easily generate all sorts of adventures without preamble. IMO every campaign settings needs a few areas like this.
I give Jacobs and Mona, Sasserine and DMGII Saltmarsh a very enthusiastic "thumbs up." _________________ GVD
Where FtA substantially constricted the Hold of the Sea Princes as an adventure incubator, James Jacobs, and I believe Erik Mona, are working to make the general area once again an area, much like the Wild Coast once was, one that can easily generate all sorts of adventures without preamble.
Always with the FtA bashing.
IYO, FtA constricted the Hold as an adventure incubator.
Others milage does vary
P.
Whose hybrid adventure engine runs on all editions of GH.
Where FtA substantially constricted the Hold of the Sea Princes as an adventure incubator, James Jacobs, and I believe Erik Mona, are working to make the general area once again an area, much like the Wild Coast once was, one that can easily generate all sorts of adventures without preamble.
Always with the FtA bashing.
IYO, FtA constricted the Hold as an adventure incubator.
Others milage does vary
P.
Whose hybrid adventure engine runs on all editions of GH.
While the constriction can be debated, I do not believe it is debateable as post-FTA consideration of adventures in the area has as a preamble, not present earlier - how does the Scarlet Brotherhood, which took the Hold in FtA, factor in or not factor in. Any adventure much beyond looking for lost cows (and even then?) will need to consider whether the SB presence/aftermath would impact the adventure - a constriction imposed on the Hold by FtA.
FtA had its points. The treatment of the Hold and Wild Coast in FtA, however, imposed preambles on the consideration of adventures in both areas - the SB and orcs respectively - where prior to FtA both areas were "wide open" as adventure incubators, without such preambles. Mileage will vary on whether such developments were good or bad, but the preambles, the constrictions imposed thereby, remain.
For the record, I use material from all editions. _________________ GVD
While the constriction can be debated, I do not believe it is debateable as post-FTA consideration of adventures in the area has as a preamble, not present earlier - how does the Scarlet Brotherhood, which took the Hold in FtA, factor in or not factor in. Any adventure much beyond looking for lost cows (and even then?) will need to consider whether the SB presence/aftermath would impact the adventure - a constriction imposed on the Hold by FtA.
Puh-leeze!
There are two ways to write a setting book:
1. With plot hooks
2. Without plot hooks
Calling plot hooks "constriction" is about as reasonable as condemning an adventure with a plot as "railroading." You could equally say that a book with plot hooks is "meaningless."
Oh, and in case it escaped your notice, anything you do in Sasserine has to consider the influence of the SB too.
While the constriction can be debated, I do not believe it is debateable as post-FTA consideration of adventures in the area has as a preamble, not present earlier - how does the Scarlet Brotherhood, which took the Hold in FtA, factor in or not factor in. Any adventure much beyond looking for lost cows (and even then?) will need to consider whether the SB presence/aftermath would impact the adventure - a constriction imposed on the Hold by FtA.
FtA had its points. The treatment of the Hold and Wild Coast in FtA, however, imposed preambles on the consideration of adventures in both areas - the SB and orcs respectively - where prior to FtA both areas were "wide open" as adventure incubators, without such preambles. Mileage will vary on whether such developments were good or bad, but the preambles, the constrictions imposed thereby, remain.
FtA had its points. The treatment of the Hold and Wild Coast in FtA, however, imposed preambles on the consideration of adventures in both areas - the SB and orcs respectively - where prior to FtA both areas were "wide open" as adventure incubators, without such preambles. Mileage will vary on whether such developments were good or bad, but the preambles, the constrictions imposed thereby, remain.
I don't see how this limits the number of adventures you can possibly have any more than any other piece of background. By your argument, having ANY contextualising background limits the possibility for adventures.
"I want an adventure pitting Napoleonic Imperial Guard vs orcs. What do you mean Napoleon doesn't exist in the Flanaess?"
Settings necessarily put limits on the possible, or at least plausible, range of adventures. Of course, in a home game, these limits are pretty weak, since DM fiat is the whole of the law.
I meant the general increase in overal population numbers of every city and country in the LGG. Keoland went from 300K to 1.8M population. Hookhill went from 4,500 to 7,500 population. If Saltmarsh was boosted the same way, it would be close to a small city instead of just a large town.
And as I said, having been conquered by the SB, I expect its population suffered significantly from that.
Well, I heartily support that increase in population and think it could stand for quite a bit more. But I don't see how it follows that because the whole region got a much needed boost to pop, that every instance got a similar one. Saltmarsh is a fishing town. Orlane is a swamp village. You use that extra pop to add a lot more Saltmarshes and Orlanes, not to make them cities and towns, respectively. IMHO.
Ah yes but don't forget that quite a bit of the population increase would have been refugges from Geoff and Sterich neither of which has large fishing populations and some of whom have returned home since 591 CY.
FtA had its points. The treatment of the Hold and Wild Coast in FtA, however, imposed preambles on the consideration of adventures in both areas - the SB and orcs respectively - where prior to FtA both areas were "wide open" as adventure incubators, without such preambles. Mileage will vary on whether such developments were good or bad, but the preambles, the constrictions imposed thereby, remain.
I don't see how this limits the number of adventures you can possibly have any more than any other piece of background. By your argument, having ANY contextualising background limits the possibility for adventures.
"I want an adventure pitting Napoleonic Imperial Guard vs orcs. What do you mean Napoleon doesn't exist in the Flanaess?"
Settings necessarily put limits on the possible, or at least plausible, range of adventures. Of course, in a home game, these limits are pretty weak, since DM fiat is the whole of the law.
P.
It is chiefly a question of thematics. Pre-FtA, the thematics of the WC and HoSP were one of a mulitplicity of chaotic petty states each a potential breeding ground for adventures so that, taken as a whole, the pre-FtA WC and HoSP were hives of adventure possibilities of almost every sort. Post-FtA the SB in the HoSP and the orcs in the WC have to a large degree homoginized what was much more diverse.
Of course, one can initiate any kind of adventure anywhere if one really wants to do so, but some areas lend themselves more easily to this kind of "anything goes" environment than other. The pre-FtA WC and HoSP were far more "anything goes" areas than say the Pale, but you could run any kind of adventure in or out of the Pale if you really wanted to; it would just be easier in areas not so restricted by the dominant theme. Post-FtA the WC has a dominant theme in the orc invasion and empire that did not previously exist, as the HoSP has a dominant theme in the SB takeover that previously did not exist. That in both cases the post-FtA dominant theme contrasts with the previous "anything goes" theme draws the constrast.
If one wishes to see no thematic differences in the WC and HoSP that would affect adventure generation pre vs post FtA, all I can say is . . . not much actually, as the difference is plain to me. _________________ GVD
How exactly could you run anything in those areas before?
You obviously couldn't run an adventure focusing on the efforts of an empire in the Wild Coast or Hold of the Sea princes to consolidate or expand.
You couldn't run an adventure of politics in a refined and ancient kingdom in either.
You couldn't run a whole slew of adventures!
And that has now changed to a whole bunch of other adventures being more likely, and a different set not being as likely.
The problem is not in the change, but in assigning such a massive value judgement to it, particularly in isolation to everything else. Why is it so horrifically unspeakable that different adventures now occur in those places?
It details a number of towns on the east coast of England during the middle ages and might just have the kind of flavour you need to flesh Saltmarsh out reasonably realistically
P.
That's a pretty good site and on it I found an even better link if you want to look at Maps of most of the cities of Europe.
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/historic_cities.html
A good portion of the Maps seem to be from the late 1500's but they are pretty useful as is or as inspirtation on making your own.
Thanks Woesinger.
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