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    Canonfire :: View topic - Met Alpha- Barrier Peaks/Tamoachan Redux
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    Met Alpha- Barrier Peaks/Tamoachan Redux
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:14 pm  
    Met Alpha- Barrier Peaks/Tamoachan Redux

    Much to my delight, I find that a new 4th Edition of Jim Ward's Metamorphosis Alpha awaited me in my FLGS!

    As folks will recall, Met Alpha is part of the inspiration for S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. The exact relationship between Met Alpha's starship Warden and the crashed Barrier Peaks ship has never been quantified. Adding to the uncertainty, C1 Tamoachan references the Warden II (as the II- Nedraw).

    Given the previous Met Alpha continuity, the Warden could not have been the same vessel (or parts thereof) that crashed in the Barrier Peaks. Similarly, in MA continuity there was no Warden II that might have crashed and/or might be remembered in Tamoachan. This mystery has now been substantially resolved in MA terms (It has always been easy enough in GH terms to account for the Warden II as a MA ship that crashed on Oerth)

    MA4 presents a universe divergent from MA1-3. There are then now TWO Wardens with different histories! It is now possible to have a Warden and a Warden II, one of which crashed on Oerth. Which Warden crashed, ie which is the Warden II, remains speculative but as the functional details of the ships are identical, it is more an academic question.

    I have not finished reading MA4 and some additional information may await discovery between the covers but it seems MA and GH continuity appear be be more reconcilable now than previously.

    NB - I like crashed spaceships in my GH. Happy YMMV. CSL, I'm looking at you. Wink Cool
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    GVD
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    Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:46 am  

    I love S3. Not a popular position on here, but it is way too much fun to spring on the unsuspecting. Don't use the pictures and spring it on your newbies.
    CF Admin

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    Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:16 pm  

    I just got a copy of the Origins preview edition of MA4, GVD, and am looking forward to checking it out :D

    Do you know if there's any difference between the standard MA4 edition and the Origins special preview?
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    Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:42 am  

    Two, címon! There are at least 11. Donít you remember Ixnedraw, the golden sundisk, chariot of Quetzalcoatl? Sad Laughing

    And as a courtesy, for those who are interested, dig up the old, old stuff here: http://metamorphosisalpha.com/dragon_idx.html

    Thanks for the update! Unleash the 'bot!
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:51 am  

    grodog wrote:
    I just got a copy of the Origins preview edition of MA4, GVD, and am looking forward to checking it out :D

    Do you know if there's any difference between the standard MA4 edition and the Origins special preview?


    Unfortunately, no. I am not aware if there is a difference. I have not seen the preview edition.

    I did not get to attend any of the big cons this past summer. Sad
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    Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:10 am  

    Wolfsire wrote:
    Two, címon! There are at least 11. Donít you remember Ixnedraw, the golden sundisk, chariot of Quetzalcoatl? Sad Laughing

    And as a courtesy, for those who are interested, dig up the old, old stuff here: http://metamorphosisalpha.com/dragon_idx.html

    Thanks for the update! Unleash the 'bot!


    Heh. Smile

    There could be only one - the S3 ship - that would have to then be said to have broke into 3 pieces upon entry into the atmosphere (Barrier Peak Site 1, Barrier Peak Site 2 and Tamoachan/Warden II). I don't think this flies as the Tamoachan/Warden II site is not a crash.

    There could be two - the S3 ship (Barrier Peak Sites 1 and 2) and the Tamoachan/Warden II. This seems highly likely, as Tamoachan/Warden II is not noted as a crash.

    There could be three sites, if you distinguish the two S3 sites from the "machine cysts," which makes some sense as the "Sheens" seem distinct from the known S3 technology. Then, add Tamoachan for three.

    There could be four, if you want to add in the "Comet" ship. This is ify as there is no direct link to GH, unless you count the "machine cyst" reference, but again, the "Sheen" technology seems distinct from the "Comet" technology. I tend to discount the "Comet" ship.

    So I count, 2 certainly, 3 likely. Happy YMMV Wink
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    GVD
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    Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:10 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Unfortunately, no. I am not aware if there is a difference. I have not seen the preview edition.


    It has "ORIGINS 2006 Special Preview Edition" on the cover, 176 numbered b&w pages (including the title page as number 1---sigh, bad formatting/editing still at work it seems, despite the rafts of proofreaders credited), at the end a two-page color insert/handout decks listing (elevator buttons to push?) backed with a cross-section of the Warden (both pages not numbered), quite a bit of Jim Holloway line art and a fair amount of shots of painted minis, the inner gutter of the book is too narrow so that the binding almost doesn't leave sufficient room to allow you to read the book (but you can, barely).

    GVDammerung wrote:
    I did not get to attend any of the big cons this past summer. Sad


    Me neither, eBay was my friend!
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    Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:15 am  

    grodog wrote:
    GVDammerung wrote:
    Unfortunately, no. I am not aware if there is a difference. I have not seen the preview edition.


    It has "ORIGINS 2006 Special Preview Edition" on the cover, 176 numbered b&w pages (including the title page as number 1---sigh, bad formatting/editing still at work it seems, despite the rafts of proofreaders credited), at the end a two-page color insert/handout decks listing (elevator buttons to push?) backed with a cross-section of the Warden (both pages not numbered), quite a bit of Jim Holloway line art and a fair amount of shots of painted minis, the inner gutter of the book is too narrow so that the binding almost doesn't leave sufficient room to allow you to read the book (but you can, barely).

    GVDammerung wrote:
    I did not get to attend any of the big cons this past summer. Sad


    Me neither, eBay was my friend!


    It sounds very similar. See the TOC here - http://www.mudpuppygames.com/MGgames.html#ma4e
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    GVD
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    Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:55 pm  

    Isn't there a ship in Greyspace wanderning about the edge of the crystal sphere that people find from time to time? What is the deal with that object?
    GreySage

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    Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:52 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    There could be four, if you want to add in the "Comet" ship.


    Or five, counting the Silver Metal Cairn. Greyhawk: Gem of the Flanaess, page 94: "A cairn in the Cairn Hills is actually the sleek vessel of a young god, killed when his ship crashed as a falling star to Oerth."
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:25 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    GVDammerung wrote:
    There could be four, if you want to add in the "Comet" ship.


    Or five, counting the Silver Metal Cairn. Greyhawk: Gem of the Flanaess, page 94: "A cairn in the Cairn Hills is actually the sleek vessel of a young god, killed when his ship crashed as a falling star to Oerth."


    Just so. Smile And then there were five! Happy
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    GVD
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    Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:41 pm  
    Re: Met Alpha- Barrier Peaks/Tamoachan Redux

    GVDammerung wrote:


    NB - I like crashed spaceships in my GH. Happy YMMV. CSL, I'm looking at you. Wink Cool


    ...I hear baby Jesus crying somewhere in the distance.
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    Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:00 pm  

    From OJ5

    The Egg of Coot
    Rising from the northern fens is a strange, dome-shaped
    edifice, whose ancient, verdigrised surface is formed of
    some unknown metal. It has but one visible entrance, a
    round gate on its eastern side. Through this gate pass an
    odd assortment of creatures serving a reclusive and
    unnatural master: the Egg of Coot. Most of these beings are
    either summoned creatures, or those he has bred or
    invented, such as his various strains of diseased gibberlings,
    several varieties of homunculi, and most recently the chaos
    race of Qullan. Few other than the Egg's servants have
    visited his palace-city beneath the great shell and lived to
    tell of it. Rumors bespeak an unsettling combination of
    mechanical and organic construction centered around the
    glowing Coot-idol through which the Egg issues his
    proclamations.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:48 am  

    Since we're on the topic, here's the Starship section from Paul Stormberg's "Thus Spake Gary Gygax" article:

    Quote:
    _Starship_, Aldiss, Brian. Avon, 1969 (S.G. Phillips, 1958, 1st print).
    This novel is Gary's inspiration for module S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, complete with 'tween decks, wheely sleds, paralyzer pitsols, welders, plague, the image of vegepygmies, etc. I used it to create a whole "Before Oerthfall" starship scenario wherein players were the crew of the doomed ship.

    In an interview with Gary Gygax about several points of Greyhawk minutiae Gary had this to say (Q = Paul Stormberg; A = Gary Gygax):

    Q: "Is the crashed spaceship in S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks the Starship Warden from Metamorphosis Alpha?"

    A: "No. The size and the technology in this vehicle should make such speculation quite misplaced, in fact. The downed space ship if far too small, and its science quite different from that of the famed starship Warden."

    Q: "In module C1 Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan there is a clue that indicates the crashed spaceship in S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks may be the Warden II?"

    A: "The downed spacecraft wasn't really the Warden II either. Sorry. That [the obscure clue in module C1 by Harold Johnson and Jeff R. Leason] was somebody else writing, not me. The crashed space vessel was more like that dealt with in a SF book - whose title and author I have forgotten, but whose mutated inhabitants collected "ponics". (I think the name of the book was
    Starship, but I am not sure.)"

    Author's Note: The book is indeed Starship by Brian W. Aldiss, published in 1959. It is Aldiss' first novel and was released first in the U.K. as Non-Stop and later in the U.S. as Starship. The latter title, of course, gives away the best part of the book, one of the likely inspirations for Jim Ward's Metamorphosis Alpha in 1976.
    GreySage

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    Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:52 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    Few other than the Egg's servants have visited his palace-city beneath the great shell and lived to tell of it. Rumors bespeak an unsettling combination of mechanical and organic construction centered around the glowing Coot-idol through which the Egg issues his proclamations.


    I'm sure I saw an H.R. Giger painting that looked like that. Maybe this one or this one or this or this or this or this (incidently, this could be the Machine of Lum the Mad).
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    Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:48 pm  

    Good catch, Mort! Smile One wonders if this is Greyhawk or Roswell sometimes. Laughing

    Thanael, thank you for the quotes from EGG. Smile I was unaware he had addressed the issue. I can't but accept his recollections, but it would be interesting to see how he would develop things were he to step back into the GH picture (assuming he wouldn't declare it all a bad dream Wink ). While he didn't add the Warden to Tamoachan, there it is, nonetheless, tantilizing DMs who care to use the reference. But I agree, if there is a "solid" MA reference, it is in Tamoachan, not the Barrier Peaks. I know Harold Johnson (one of the Tamoachan authors)often goes to Gencon; it might be interesting to ask him if he has any recollections about the Warden reference in Tamoachan. Good stuff; thanks! Happy
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    Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:28 pm  

    C1 as part of Greyhawk is a bad kludge.
    S3 is cool, but is best kept limited.
    If you really need spaceships in GH, use spelljammers. They can also serve as awesome magic airships! A fleet of them for the major nations of the Flanaess would open up tons of possibilities. We could even set up a Greyhawk version of the Princess Ark series!
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    Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:10 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    C1 as part of Greyhawk is a bad kludge.


    You are right, let us never mention it here at Dragonsfoot again!

    Samwise wrote:
    S3 is cool, but is best kept limited.


    Too true, but a splash here and there for color ...

    Samwise wrote:
    If you really need spaceships in GH, use spelljammers. They can also serve as awesome magic airships! A fleet of them for the major nations of the Flanaess would open up tons of possibilities. We could even set up a Greyhawk version of the Princess Ark series!


    Vomit Wink
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    Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:22 pm  

    Wolfsire wrote:
    You are right, let us never mention it here at Dragonsfoot again!


    LOL! Laughing
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    Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:10 pm  

    Wolfsire wrote:
    Samwise wrote:
    C1 as part of Greyhawk is a bad kludge.


    You are right, let us never mention it here at Dragonsfoot again!


    Hmmm?
    Dragonsfoot?
    Since when is being critical of some adventure a refusal to recognize anything written 85?
    I think you have me confused with someone else.
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    Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:43 pm  

    Samwise wrote:
    Wolfsire wrote:
    Samwise wrote:
    C1 as part of Greyhawk is a bad kludge.


    You are right, let us never mention it here at Dragonsfoot again!


    Hmmm?
    Dragonsfoot?
    Since when is being critical of some adventure a refusal to recognize anything written 85?
    I think you have me confused with someone else.


    Criticize it, take it or leave it. I was just trying to be funny in light to the quote from GG disclaiming C1. I appologize if it was offensive. I know well that you accept new material. If anything, I would guess that you have a preference for the new.

    If you took offense at my other comments, I appologize for that too.
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    Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:29 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    I'm sure I saw an H.R. Giger painting that looked like that. Maybe this one or this one or this or this or this or this (incidently, this could be the Machine of Lum the Mad).


    Good ideas all, rasgon: I'm fond of Giger's work, and it has certainly influenced the level of twistedness in my own games!
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    Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:10 pm  

    Yes, those Giger illos are spot on examples of the EoC stuff. I had never made that connection long ago when using the location. With Giger in mind now, I am sure he capable of creating some Far Realmsian creatures ala Alien. In fact dieseased Gibberlings mentioned in the article reminds me of the Brood Gibberlings from Gates of Firestorm Peak where the Far Realms were coined.
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    Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:54 am  

    Ii Nedraw is obviously an homage to Jim Ward and MA, there's no question.

    However, like 99% of similar anagrammatical homages and references in greyhawk material, it should probably be nothing more than that, an homage. Gygax says so in the quotes provided by Thanael, and while I'm not one to automatically accept Gygax's musings 20 years after the fact as indisputable, the fact that there is no other allusion to MA in Tamoachan or Scarlet Brotherhood suggests that one this point, his word is probably reliable.

    Presuming that any homage suggesting another system or setting means there must be a link with that system or setting would lead us to things like a Dragonlance themed Geoff, and that is something most would agree was not intended.
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    Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:47 pm  

    One way of dealing with the kludginess is using a really big space ship instead of a tiny one. I think there are Nazca lines around Xamaclan not made by human hands. Any idea what shapes they come in?
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    Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:59 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:


    Thanks for the update! Unleash the 'bot!


    Heh. Smile

    There could be only one - the S3 ship - that would have to then be said to have broke into 3 pieces upon entry into the atmosphere (Barrier Peak Site 1, Barrier Peak Site 2 and Tamoachan/Warden II). I don't think this flies as the Tamoachan/Warden II site is not a crash.

    There could be two - the S3 ship (Barrier Peak Sites 1 and 2) and the Tamoachan/Warden II. This seems highly likely, as Tamoachan/Warden II is not noted as a crash.

    There could be three sites, if you distinguish the two S3 sites from the "machine cysts," which makes some sense as the "Sheens" seem distinct from the known S3 technology. Then, add Tamoachan for three.

    So I count, 2 certainly, 3 likely. Happy YMMV Wink[/quote]

    Where are you getting two ships in S3? I don't remember seeing anything about a second section of the ship being there.
    I do remember the intro bit at the beginning of the module that says the ship was sealed off into sections and each section left to its individual fate. But I don't remember ever seeing anything about a second section of the ship landing anywhere on Oerth.
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