Username Password
  or Create an Account
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Greyhawk Wiki

#greytalk-discord
    JOIN THE CHAT
    Canonfire :: View topic - Sad News: Dungeon and Dragon are cancelled as print mags
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Sad News: Dungeon and Dragon are cancelled as print mags [ 1, 2  Next]
    Author Message
    Sage of Canonfire

    Joined: Jun 28, 2001
    Posts: 125


    Send private message
    Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:38 pm  
    Sad News: Dungeon and Dragon are cancelled as print mags

    Read all about it on the Paizo site:

    http://www.paizo.com

    Its the end of an era and of course, a big blow to published Greyhawk.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1076
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:56 pm  

    Most of us here have seen similar waves of stupidity in the past... it will pass, though we don't know how yet.

    Hang around a bit.

    Edited by Duicarthan 04/20/07
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 04, 2005
    Posts: 39


    Send private message
    Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 pm  

    So this is the end? No more published material. Again.


    God this gets old. From now on anything I want from WotC is coming from illegal downloads. I'm done-er with them than normal.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 64
    From: Stockholm, Sweden

    Send private message
    Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:22 pm  

    Sad
    This is really a sad turn of events. Erik Mona made sure that Greyhawk stayed in print the only way it was possible and when it seemed that sales supported that act the magazines get axed. By a company that thinks they can do better...

    Mad The Greyhawk content in Dungeon made me put up with all the other content - now it's gone. No more Greyhawk maps, no Greyhawk gods, no Maure Castle, no nothing.

    Sure, I've got all the good stuff from the days of yore but I'm a high-income consumer in the age of consumtion - I want something to buy once in a while!
    _________________
    Never say blip-blip to a kuo-tua
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2004
    Posts: 666


    Send private message
    Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:59 am  

    Well, that's certainly surprising. I've never been a regular purchaser of either magazine..just spot purchases of things that interested me. But I am really wondering how they are going to sell the same content effectively over the internet. Guess we'll find out.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2003
    Posts: 138
    From: Midwood in Geoff

    Send private message
    Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:20 am  

    I don't forsee this going over very well with many people. Just a cursory glance around the web, even the people who don't play the new edition seem disappointed at this turn of events. On the other hand, Paizo's Pathfinder sounds very interesting. Perhaps their new setting for these adventure paths will be compatible with Greyhawk more easily than the Eberron-type settings we're getting elsewhere. As far as this goes, I don't see myself getting into the 'online only' craze that seems to be going on, so I will stick with Paizo and Pathfinder.
    _________________
    Michael Erin Sandar Bard of Midwood
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 18, 2004
    Posts: 218


    Send private message
    Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:44 am  

    This is the second license pulled in a few months. WotC pulled the license from Codemonkey Publishing for the E-Tools updates.

    Per Erik Mona's posts yesterday on the Paizo forums, they were happy with their sales and growing subscriber base, but this was a WotC decision.

    Anyone want to engage in a bit of rampant speculation that this is the precursor to 4th edition, or the end of the OGL? Laughing

    Also in those forums, Erik posted that he is on record at WotC "as being extremely interested in a Greyhawk license or licensing opportunities related to that property."

    So it's another setback, but it's not the end of the world.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 23, 2004
    Posts: 1212


    Send private message
    Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:18 am  

    Telas wrote:
    ...it's not the end of the world.


    FAQ What is Canonfire! wrote:
    Canonfire! is a term coined by Erik Mona (Iquander). Its a pun on so many levels, but think of it as taking pre-existing canon (all the books and adventures ever created for Greyhawk) and setting it on creative fire. Let a thousand Greyhawks bloom....

    _________________
    Plar of Poofy Pants
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
    Posts: 462
    From: Ithaca, New York

    Send private message
    Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:26 pm  

    Telas wrote:
    Anyone want to engage in a bit of rampant speculation that this is the precursor to 4th edition, or the end of the OGL? Laughing


    Well, it's not the end of the OGL. The d20 license, perhaps, but that's lost alot of value anyways. The OGL is irrevocable. WotC can't do anything about it, ever. There's a fair chance this will reinvigorate the 3rd-party market, IMO. Without Dragon to supply the little tidbit articles, a few companies are probably racing to look into a monthly OGL fantasy magazine, just as Paizo's Pathfinder thing is apparently looking to replace Dungeon.

    As far as 4th edition...the Magic Item Compendium settled my mind there. IMO, "4e" will be released soon, probably next Winter Fantasy (or D&D Experience, as I think they're calling it now), but it won't be called 4e. Revised or Advanced, is my guess, and it'll bring the PH, MM, and DMG "up to date" and in line with PH2, DMG2, Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium, Rules Compendium, MM IV & V, and the second wave of Complete X that's underway now. So, ruleswise, most of the material is already out there. It'll be more like D&D 3.6 or something.

    It could be sooner, though -- if WotC rolls out their Digital Initiative to line up with the end of Dragon and Dungeon, it matchs up pretty well with the fall/winter releases, which could still be altered. Timing the Digital Initiative with news or the release of a revised PH could provide a big boost, and take advantage of holiday season sales.
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2566
    From: Ullinois

    Send private message
    Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:32 pm  

    Of all the stuff on that list I bought DMG2, and it is at best remotely useful to me. If that is what passes for the next edition I'm fairly secure that I won't be needing anything more from Wizards (Except EtCG which I consider a 'Paizo product'), hardcopy or digital anytime soon.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3764
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:17 am  

    Nellisir already hit many of the points I'd bring up. This possibly could give the 3rd party publishers a shot in the arm, but not for a while yet as the magazines will be going until September. I'm glad Necromancer Games is still alive, as they are my favorite 3rd party publisher. Not many can do a magazine format though, and even Paizo is leaving that format behind in favor of perfect bound monthly booklets (which are more expensive).

    GENCON this year ought to herald not only the 4th Edition of the game, but likely the unveiling of the planned WotC web content as well. Maybe there will be some new 3rd party OGL stuff there too because of this whole thing. Well, if not the imminent release of these then surely the announcement of them. As soon as I saw the Complete Spell Compendium with the Complete Magic Item Compendium coming out shortly thereafter, I knew Iíd seen this pattern before. Should be and interesting convention to be sure.

    The online format certainly curtails the reading time I usually put in while I am occupying the Throne of Iuz, as I donít have a laptop. Besides, I hate paying for things I find on-line anyways. This includes e-zines, monthly gaming fees (WoW, etc.), andÖother things you might have to pay a monthly on-line user fee for. Besides, spending long amounts of time in front of a computer reading articles is a sure fire way to having a getting a headache or having a seizure. I wonder which one will cause the first wrongful death lawsuit. ;) Still, WotC may have some trick up their sleeve to make it worth while. Iíll have to wait and see, though I certainly would prefer a hard copy of gaming material. As to 4e, WotC will have to come very close to making all of the changes I would like for me to be interested in purchasing any of it.

    Edit: I just checked out how Paizo plans on handling the transition of those who have subscriptions which go beyond the last September issues of Dungeon and Dragon(I have subscriptions to both). From the looks of things, a good amount of thought was put into it, and all I can say is that Paizo's transition options are beyond excellent. Accordingly I have decided to go with the Pathfinder option, and look forward to it living up to my expectations.
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -


    Last edited by Cebrion on Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
    Posts: 462
    From: Ithaca, New York

    Send private message
    Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:07 am  

    mortellan wrote:
    Of all the stuff on that list I bought DMG2, and it is at best remotely useful to me.


    And of all the stuff on that list, DMG2 is probably the weakest. The monster selection in MMIV isn't too hot, but the format is good.

    Complete Mage + PH2 were probably my top two books of last year.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
    Posts: 462
    From: Ithaca, New York

    Send private message
    Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:10 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Edit: I just checked out how Paizo plans on handling the transition of those who have subscriptions which go beyond the last September issues of Dungeon and Dragon(I have subscriptions to both). From the looks of things, a good amount of though was put into it, and all I can say is that Paizo's transition options are beyond excellent. Accordingly I have decided to go with the Pathfinder option, and look forward to it living up to my expectations.


    I -don't have subscriptions to rollover, but the first adventure arc -finally- looks like something I'd run, the cost is reasonable with the discount, and the free pdf of each issue sold it. So I'll be signing up. Kudos to Paizo - I haven't subscribed to Dragon in at least 5 years.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 27, 2001
    Posts: 51
    From: Wollongong, Australia

    Send private message
    Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:47 pm  

    Wonder how it will affect everyone (including myself) who have been hounding them to bind Age of Worms into a HC. Erik was always cagey but kept hinting that there were difficulties.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 18, 2005
    Posts: 70
    From: Adelaide, South Australia

    Send private message
    Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:23 am  
    Could it be a good thing for Greyhawk?

    It is way too early to tell, but speculating is fun...

    I assume printing costs and complications are driving this decision. In lieu of any idea what direction Wizards are going to take with the "digital content" I was thinking about what they might do.

    Presumably the idea will be we "subscribe" to it and in return we can access and download content. But what content?

    The same sort of thing as Dragon magazine? Are they going to divide the material up into different sections (such as Campaign Settings) and people pay to subscribe to those bits of interest to them? Or one subscription gives you access to all?

    What would be nice for the long suffering Greyhawk fans was if they got Eric to arrange an official Greyhawk e-zine that Greyhawk fans could subscribe to. You still have issues with no treading on the toes of Living Greyhawk, but it would allow the good work being done to continue in a published form. It seems that with the issue of printing out of the way, Wizards would be free to have a low risk gamble on producing material for some of the forgotten campaign settings and see if the public is interested.

    I assume that the material Wizards is going to publish will be much like Dragon material? With fans contributing articles, or could they employ only staff to produce material?

    The success of this initiative obviously rests on the quality of material. I hope to top nothc artwork continues to make it into the material.

    I have to say as a very long time gamer, it feels weird to think there will be no more Dragon magazine. Wow.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jul 28, 2001
    Posts: 454
    From: on the way to Bellport

    Send private message
    Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:45 pm  

    Just a brief note that this event produced a good deal of speculation on GreyTalk, along with a brief bit o'flame.

    Nellisir, what did you like about Complete Mage?
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2004
    Posts: 666


    Send private message
    Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:22 pm  

    Well, it wasn't the viability of the magazines themselves that drove the decision. Paizo officials have stated that they were quite pleased with the growing subscription rates and profitability of the magazines and would love to continue producing it. So its obvious that WotC wants to get a larger share of that money by producing the material themselves and digitally distributing it. They are apparently going to do that in house, so Erik won't be involved since he's part of Paizo's staff rather than WotC's. Erik has said he's interested in licensing GH, but that seems unlikely to happen. Its certainly the opposite direction from that WotC is taking with their other properties (ie revoking licenses to third party distributors).

    How they go about soliciting material and what sort of format it is distributed in hasn't been revealed, afaik. But apparently they feel that enough of their fanbase is now internet based that they can market the kind of material that used to go in the two magazines digitally instead. Not at all sure that is true, myself. I'm more inclined towards the way Paizo is going about it: with a print periodical also available in pdf, either separately or included in the cost of the print subscription. That's how a number of mainstream magazines work these days.

    Of course, Pathfinder is a book series rather than a magazine so its kind of pricey. And its the kind of content the magazines provided that I'm least interested in: adventures and APs. Particularly since they'll be set in some new Paizo-world rather than GH.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3764
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:38 am  

    I just had to post this from the Paizo forums:

    "James Jacobs (Editor-in-Chief, Dungeon and Pathfinder), Yesterday, 02:07 PM

    I certainly don't expect anyone to play through two Adventure Paths in a year, but at the same point, I don't expect everyone to love every Adventure Path that appears in Pathfinder. By keeping them to a 6-month run and doing two a year, we increase the number of Adventure Paths you have to choose from in a year, so that there's a better chance of finding something you like. If you don't like one, you won't have to wait a year for a new one.
    At the same time, we're really trying to make sure that the non-adventure half of each Pathfinder is useful in any campaign (in addition to supporting the adventure). If a volume of Pathfinder's adventure is an "explore the swamp and defeat the castle full of snake men" adventure, then we'll support it with an ecology-style writeup of the snake men and a big environment-style article about running games in swamps. The new monster section will have 6 new swamp monsters. Those articles are useful far beyond supporting the swamp adventure."


    AAARRGH!!!!
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2566
    From: Ullinois

    Send private message
    Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:44 am  

    Cebrion wrote:

    AAARRGH!!!!

    And it begins....
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2566
    From: Ullinois

    Send private message
    Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:49 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    I'm more inclined towards the way Paizo is going about it: with a print periodical also available in pdf, either separately or included in the cost of the print subscription. That's how a number of mainstream magazines work these days.

    Of course, Pathfinder is a book series rather than a magazine so its kind of pricey. And its the kind of content the magazines provided that I'm least interested in: adventures and APs. Particularly since they'll be set in some new Paizo-world rather than GH.
    I give Wizards a year before they copycat Pathfinder. They'd love nothing more than to get you to buy more of their splatbooks and a subscription method might do it. Ptoi!
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2003
    Posts: 138
    From: Midwood in Geoff

    Send private message
    Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:44 am  

    mortellan wrote:
    I give Wizards a year before they copycat Pathfinder. They'd love nothing more than to get you to buy more of their splatbooks and a subscription method might do it. Ptoi!


    True. Also, I think that Erik and the Paizo gang must be grinning like schoolboys with all the free publicity Pathfinder is getting. This has generated some major criticism from all over the web. It's like the entire gaming comunity did a double-take and said "They did WHAT?". I think Paizo will do just fine, even though we may lament the loss of two of our favorite magazines. James Jacobs said (and I apologize, I don't have the linky, but here's the gist) that their new campaign setting for these adventure paths will be created in large part the way Greyhawk was for many of us - through it's modules.

    In effect, they are doing what I wanted Wizards, and previously, TSR at the end to do - reinvigorate the gaming community by returning us to the 'shared experience'. That shared experiece is what makes the games we play (regardless of system) great for me.


    Edit: Found the quote I was looking for...
    James Jacobs wrote:
    The setting is brand new. It's an entire campaign world we're currently in the process of creating; one who's development will primarily be guided by Pathfinder and our GameMastery products, kind of like how back in 1st edition the adventures pretty much did the job of developing the world of Greyhawk.

    _________________
    Michael Erin Sandar Bard of Midwood
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
    Posts: 462
    From: Ithaca, New York

    Send private message
    Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:19 pm  

    mtg wrote:
    Nellisir, what did you like about Complete Mage?


    I thought it did a good job including all the little "innovations" that have piled up over the past 2 years and supplementing them in a way that fit the theme of the book, and it didn't waste a ton of space.

    I'll try to be more explicit when I've got the book in front of me. I just generally thought it was a good, useful book. It had alot of content that I want to use in my games, or could use in my game.

    I wasn't so thrilled with Complete Scoundrel. Maybe I'll compare the two.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:09 pm  
    Re: Sad News: Dungeon and Dragon are cancelled as print mag

    PSmedger wrote:
    Read all about it on the Paizo site:

    http://www.paizo.com

    Its the end of an era and of course, a big blow to published Greyhawk.


    It bears repeating. It is the end of an era. As long as I have been gaming, there has been a Dragon. And then Dungeon much later, but which quickly became an institution in its own right. It says something that the IP holder does not see sufficient value in the continuation of these icons of table top roleplaying in print. Or even online. As I read it the magazines are not going digital but going away, with Wotc promising similar content in there new fee based e-service, which has yet to be unveiled.

    Personally, I have no interest in subscribing to an e-service, even were it to include Greyhawk material. Call me Grognard, Luddite or what have you. E-pubs are to me too ephemeral to ever be "canon" or to ever be such that I would base or even modify a campaign to account for them. By way of example, Traveller has/had "official" e-support. I know no Traveller gamers who count it as anything to be taken into account when considering Traveller "canon." If Greyhawk were to be revived in whole or in part via an e-service, I would account it as just slightly more than nothing, if I was aware of it at all or could then be made to care. Highly doubtful.

    This leads to the "blow to published Greyhawk." Besides references to Greyhawk etc. in Wotc accessories, there is now no published Greyhawk anymore. While I can mourn the passing of the era of Dragon and Dungeon, I'm not sorry that PaizoHawk will now end. I appreciate that its heart was in the right place but, IMO, PaizoHawk was always too compromised by the restrictions Wotc placed upon Paizo's use of Greyhawk IP - "FreeCity" not "City of Greyhawk" etc. I know many could overlook this sort of thing but it never sat well with me. Neither did PaizoHawk's need to be sufficiently generic to accomodate FR etc. fans who were also Dungeon/Dragon customers. To me PaizoHawk was the proverbial glass half-empty and I'm pleased that, as a completist/obsessive-compulsive, I will no longer need to account for it.

    I very much like the notion of a Paizo Setting and the Pathfinder approach to such as I understand it. Eric Mona has more than demonstrated his gaming acumen and James Jacobs is nothing short of a genius, IMO. I am very anxious to see what they can do freed from Wotc's restrictions and I will definitely support the Pathfinder titles. My wife has already voiced her intent to switch her Dungeon and Dragon subscriptions over to Pathfinder and to subscribe thereafter. I fully agree. I am particularly interested to see what Mr. Jacobs can do with a "Demonomicon" and/or "Core Beliefs" type inclusion in the Pathfinder setting, free to follow his own dictates.

    While it is a sad day that Dragon and Dungeon sunset, I think the news beyond those facts is positive. Best wishes and future support to Paizo and its staff.

    GVD

    PS - Long time, no see. In addition to death and pestilence, I am now dealing with potential famine as I am in the process of getting myself fired from my employment, playing chicken to see who blinks first. Glad to see Canonfire rolls on. With the demise of Dragon and Dungeon, I think it fairly safe to say Canonfire is/remains the Greyhawkers' first, best source for Greyhawk - for the fans by the fans.
    _________________
    GVD
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2566
    From: Ullinois

    Send private message
    Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:46 pm  
    Re: Sad News: Dungeon and Dragon are cancelled as print mag

    GVDammerung wrote:
    PS - Long time, no see. In addition to death and pestilence, I am now dealing with potential famine as I am in the process of getting myself fired from my employment, playing chicken to see who blinks first. Glad to see Canonfire rolls on. With the demise of Dragon and Dungeon, I think it fairly safe to say Canonfire is/remains the Greyhawkers' first, best source for Greyhawk - for the fans by the fans.
    It's good to see Incabulos hasn't completely broken you GVD, hang in there. And I agree that CF is now more important than ever.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 23, 2004
    Posts: 1212


    Send private message
    Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:12 am  
    Re: Sad News: Dungeon and Dragon are cancelled as print mag

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Call me Grognard, Luddite or what have you.


    Grognard, Luddite. It is good to see you posting again. I hope everythings works out. I also hope you get to participate in the Postfest GHL initiated, if/when it starts. Burn, baby, burn!
    _________________
    Plar of Poofy Pants
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    [ 1, 2  Next]
    Page 1 of 2

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum


    Forums ©


    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.31 Seconds