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The non-GH 4e thread!
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Mordas
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Money has become more of a governing factor for WOTC now, Im sure 4E will be faster more exciting and even (dare I say) easier to climb the experience point ladder to become divine in a matter of months...
It took me a while to play 3.5 and to honest aside from some of the good aspects of the edition it is far to easy to level. I have been playing a Cleric who since Christmas 2006 has attained 13 level and thats only playing fortnightly.
I know WOTC is part of the Hasbro empire now and they must have a lot of presure on them to turn a profit and to do that they have seen how Games Workshop UK has plundered its players into buying edition after edition, special character thingy after special character thingy....
I wonder at which age group they have targeted as the new player, some one who wants the instant success game rather than the long term campaign veteran who after a couple of years playing becomes a Lord by their own hand and establishes their own Lands etc... My enjoyment is playing and DMing in a world were players work hard at keeping their characters alive, strive to make the most of what they have earned.
I just feel that the D&D I grew up with and became lost when the $ sign replaced the Advanced.....
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Thorvald
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DavidBedlam wrote:
But what's wrong with 3.5? I don't have any problems with it, so why do we need a new system?

You see, I was asking exactly the same question when 3E first came out. Oh, and I also asked it when 2E came out.... Smile
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DavidBedlam
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:29 am    Post subject: Re: Oh, well... Reply with quote

bubbagump wrote:
Don't get all worried about whether or not 4e is any good or whether or not WotC is making too much money. If you have the cash and the time, then buy the new books. If you don't, then don't buy them. D&D has never been about rules, books, or supplements. It's about a bunch of folks sitting down around a table and having fun. You don't need to buy a book to do that. Just because they make it and put it on the shelf doesn't mean you have to buy it. You don't have to keep up with the Joneses in D&D.


I wish I'd said that!

Yeah, D&D is more that just a rule system or twenty pound books. It's about fun, and getting together, and snack foods, and mis-timed Monty Python quotes, and....and..... and all that other stuff budda said.

*Sigh* Why can't I be that aticulate?
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DavidBedlam
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to diuble post, but I found an article here that you may wish to read.

The Open Gaming License will contine!

Forgotten Realms will be the first campaign setting released.

If I read it right, a subscription to the digital initiative will costs more than one to Dragon/Dungeon, but less than one to World or Warcraft. I think. Hi-tech confuses me.
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gargoyle
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read on one of the 4E forums (I think) that it will run $9.95 per month.
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stebehil
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Id say that the folks here are not WotCs target audience anyway. All Greyhawk info has been printed several times over, and most of the folks posting here are settled in their gaming ways that it probably makes no difference if WotC publishes a new rule set - several who have posted here have said that they wont buy the new stuff.

But this would be the reaction to every new ruleset, no matter when it is published - it makes no difference if the previous rules edition is one, 12 or 30 years old. And it was the general reaction to 2e, 3e, and 3.5.

So, Im more concerned about Greyhawk - if it is no longer the core setting, and if LG will come to a "triumphant close" next year, as is posted on enworld, the question remains what will happen after these events? Will the licence be availabe for others (paizo?) Will it just gather dust? Will WotC themselves do something with it? Will there still be a LG?

Stefan
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect WOTC will not sell the license. In addition, I have been understanding that their intention is to have a "neutral campaign" design. This actually may prove better for Greyhawk. I am not one for taking Ebberron or Forgotten Realms and reworking it for Greyhawk. I can do that but when it comes to world building and given a limited amount of time to work on gaming as due to all of the adult responsibilities (such as having a family and job) I have to pick and choose how I will spend my creative time on world building. Re-doing modules to fit Greyhawk is very low on my priority list.

If core products remain neutral it could be easier to drop into Greyhawk (hopefully), depending primarly on how large of map areas they go with for modules, how much they use specific names of forests, deities, etc. I realize we can always modify the names to suit Greyhawk (change the name of xxx forest to say the Gnarley forest), we have always had that option. This is something I rarely do however because of the time it takes to redo maps and it simply bugs me to no end to restructure text and rename. If modules are few and far in between I would be more willing to do this.

One thing I do however is if I do find a neutral module I like which mentions some forest or another, I make it a portion of a larger forest in Greyhawk. This is what I did for Ravenloft. The swamp in the modules retains the same name as given in the adventure but it is only a small portion of a larger swamp, and called that by the locals. Then I give that portion of the swamp some local flavor when I create random encounter tables. This works fine for areas which map small areas of land.

Here's why I think it could be better for Greyhawk. Feel free to disagree if you are so inclined.

When Gygax created the deities which currently are found in the Players Handbook he designed them for Greyhawk and Greyhawk only. Sure you could add them to your home campaign or some other one, but they were intended for Greyhawk. By not being placed in the new rules, deities and other aspects of Greyhawk will no longer wind up being generic D&D, it will go back to being Greyhawk.

Maybe there won't be anykind of support products for Greyhawk down the road, maybe there will be. My understanding is that each year they are going to concentrate on a different world, then move on to another, and so on. Personally, I they include Greyhawk 3-5 years down the road
(and keep their word on this) I would be pleased. A 1 year heavily produced product line of World of Greyhawk products would keep me very happy. It would take me that long to digest all the material and get it worked in anyway. If they gave us just a couple of products then it wouldn't be really worth anything to me. So we shall see.

Either way I see it as Greyhawk lore returns to Greyhawk. If they don't use it then at the very least, its not generic anymore.
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bubbagump
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh, well... Reply with quote

DavidBedlam wrote:
bubbagump wrote:
Don't get all worried about whether or not 4e is any good or whether or not WotC is making too much money. If you have the cash and the time, then buy the new books. If you don't, then don't buy them. D&D has never been about rules, books, or supplements. It's about a bunch of folks sitting down around a table and having fun. You don't need to buy a book to do that. Just because they make it and put it on the shelf doesn't mean you have to buy it. You don't have to keep up with the Joneses in D&D.


I wish I'd said that!

Yeah, D&D is more that just a rule system or twenty pound books. It's about fun, and getting together, and snack foods, and mis-timed Monty Python quotes, and....and..... and all that other stuff budda said.

*Sigh* Why can't I be that aticulate?


You did just fine, my friend. Just fine. Wink
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stebehil
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just looked around on the new D&D website, and neither under "Settings" nor under "RPGA" does Greyhawk appear, whereas FR and Eberron both do. So, it appears that GH will not recieve much support from WotC in the Future.
If this will have any effect on canonfire and other fansites, and what this means for LG is anybodies guess at the moment.

Stefan
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BlueWitch
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stebehil wrote:
I just looked around on the new D&D website, and neither under "Settings" nor under "RPGA" does Greyhawk appear, whereas FR and Eberron both do. So, it appears that GH will not recieve much support from WotC in the Future.
If this will have any effect on canonfire and other fansites, and what this means for LG is anybodies guess at the moment.

Stefan


I've said it before. What it (WotC not producing any more GH material) means is that Greyhawk will be OURS!
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DavidBedlam
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlueWitch wrote:
I've said it before. What it (WotC not producing any more GH material) means is that Greyhawk will be OURS!


It's our! All ours! BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!

*Ahem*

What Blue said. As long we are here to talk endlessly about stuff and complain about the young'uns and their new fangled technology and computers and fashions and theory of relativity and all that modern junk, Greyhawk will never die.

We'll just keep casting Raise Dead over and over.

Laughing
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weaver95
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DavidBedlam wrote:
What Blue said. As long we are here to talk endlessly about stuff and complain about the young'uns and their new fangled technology and computers and fashions and theory of relativity and all that modern junk, Greyhawk will never die.

We'll just keep casting Raise Dead over and over.

Laughing


Be that as it may, I thought it rather interesting that WoTC decided to end the Living Greyhawk campaign. While I had my issues with the way LG was run (at least in my local area anyway), I certainly respected the dedication and organizational skills necessary to organize and run what amounted to a world wide campaign involving thousands of players. And not just the guys running the show - the LG players themselves have more than demonstrated their loyalty to the brand name. After all this time and all that effort, WoTC decided to END the campaign?

I can't help but feel we're not being told the whole story here. It just doesn't make sense to me. Look, corporations want to make money, right? Here's a brand name IP that's got one hell of a dedicated following - one that they really don't have to spend oodles of money further developing, they could easily put out one quality book every business quarter and MORE than reap the rewards from it. GH fans are so starved for attention they'd lap up anything GH related and come back for seconds. Especially if it was well produced. Anyways, here's a well placed, very well developed brand just WAITING to be developed/exploited....and WoTC just DROPS it!?

Something here doesn't make sense. At least not to me. Anyone got any theories?
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weaver95:

I have cast numerous divination and commune spells and it seems that I have lost a connection with Istus. Sources indicate WOTC is preventing the necessary link. Perhaps we should call up Trithereron for Retribution or Heironeous for Justice! Anyone else suggest other deities with areas of concern which might help?
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MikelAmroni
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having looked a bit onto the 4E hype a bit this afternoon, I can say I am at least hopeful for it being worth the time to look at. The digital gaming table app looks pretty cool in the demo, but we'll see how that goes. The presentation video is on you tube (links are the front page of wizards.com/dnd )

Star Wars Saga uses a D20 modern like build system of feat/talent at every level, and 4E looks like it is gonna use that same system. Racial abilities that matter, weapon types that supposedly mean more than fluff or different crit checks/multipliers (or at least that is what they hint at...time will tell). Having looked over SWSaga, its a pretty compact little game that is reconizeable if you are familiar with the other versions of Star Wars D20, and I think 4E will be similar, but different enough to make getting the new books necessary.

I am basing all of this on conjecture and circumstance, so it may mean nothing, but from a strictly rules basis it seems worth the time to at least look at.

As for Greyhawk inclusion, well we all know that its going to go to the wayside....maybe they will actually let someone like Paizo take it over. We could only be so lucky :) Hasbro and WOTC think the setting is dead, and even thousands of fans can't change that perception it seems.

Personally I've got more than enough info to run my campaign, and then some. And I know enough to play in Anced Math's game, so all in all, this bothers me less than it could.

Just my little additions to the coppers in the fountain :)
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Vormaerin
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They don't think the setting is dead. They think its not cost effective to actively promote more than 1 or 2 game worlds because a "greyhawk book" or a "forgotten realms book" will both sell less well than a "core D&D" book. So they've narrowed the focus to Eberron and the FR. And I think they'd be even happier if Eberron eclipsed the FR and allowed them to essentially market one campaign world.
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weaver95
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vormaerin wrote:
They don't think the setting is dead. They think its not cost effective to actively promote more than 1 or 2 game worlds because a "greyhawk book" or a "forgotten realms book" will both sell less well than a "core D&D" book. So they've narrowed the focus to Eberron and the FR. And I think they'd be even happier if Eberron eclipsed the FR and allowed them to essentially market one campaign world.


That's perverse. Actually wanting your core brand names to LOSE popularity so that you can 'save money'?
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Saracenus
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its official, LG is dead, Living Realms to take over in 2008...

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=908402

Bryan Blumklotz
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weaver95
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saracenus wrote:
Its official, LG is dead, Living Realms to take over in 2008...

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=908402

Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Saracenus


Living Greyhawk has been the face of organized play for the 3rd Edition D&D game. Tremendously successful, thousands participate worldwide in the biggest shared-world D&D game anywhere. LG has been around since the beginning of 3rd Edition, and it will last to the end of the 3rd Edition product line. Starting with a two-round special at D&D Experience 2008 (February 28 March 2), the campaign will begin its final story arc a series of core adventures that will build into the climactic two-round finale at Origins 2008. Were pulling out all the stops in these final adventures no major NPC is off-limits, and youre really going to be a part of the most world-affecting story arc weve ever done. Were getting some of the best authors to ever write for Living Greyhawk to help with these adventures what the Circle has planned is nothing short of amazing. While the campaign concludes at Origins next year, it is our sincerest desire to provide you an epic conclusion to the campaign we all love so much.


Hmmm.....LG was so successful and so popular that WoTC had to kill it? That just don't make any sense to me. If it's that popular, why end it? If it's not popular, why kid around - just kill it and move on with life.

I dunno...from that write up I get the distinct impression that someone on WoTC's editorial staff is itching to the writer who kills Iuz or Mordenkainen.

This whole thing just seems pointless. I mean, if WoTC wanted to piss off fans world wide, this would be a great way to go about doing it. It just doesn't make any sense to me, that's all. Not in terms of literary continuity, not in terms of brand recognition and not in terms of customer relations. I must have missed something along the line somewhere.
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DavidBedlam
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, if they do something silly, we can always find a way to fix it. Wink
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Saracenus
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the time they start doing climatic things in LG, the year will be 598 CY. Basically, LG is one big home game.

It was never intended to generate canon for the rest of us. In fact, we are not allowed to republish the materials generated by LG because of the tangled authors rights of the mods and source materials for each region.

So, if LG continues the trend of destroying more Greyhawk Icons, do what I am already doing, ignoring it.

I am already going to ignore the ending of Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk and keep Castle Greyhawk in Greyhawk...

Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Saracenus
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Ragr
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know why we're all worrying so much about 4E. In days of old when TSR produced something new we sat up and took notice becuse there was a sense of care and concern about quality of products;they were more "amateurish" but seemingly prepared as a work of love.

Now, of course, it's a business. We know this, so let's just get on with the business of enjoying Greyhawk and being curmudgeonly about the "professionals" at WOTC.

As for 4E; embrace the good bits, kick in the pants the rubbish and continue to play the X edition that we've all made up over the years.
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SUPrUNown
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I the only one to think that the "world-changing" events which conclude LG may just be the end of Greyhawk, period? Then WOTC could do whatever they want with the IP, rebuilding it from the ground up, without fear of canon......

Anyways, I have zero intention of buy 4ed. I grew up on Basic, then Advanced. I remember the furor when 2nd Edition was proposed, and I bought into it, albeit rather grudgingly. With time, I thought 2nd Edition became a very good system. I was very resistant when 3ed came out, having not really played for years due to the dissolution of my gaming group. Since then, I have acquired only the 3 core rulebooks, and have acquired nothing of 3.5 (well, I've BOUGHT nothing of 3.5). While I like some elements or 3ed, overall, I felt it was a step back, becoming less about the ROLE-playing.

While I understand WOTC has to make money, it makes me sad to see every revision trying to reinvent the wheel, instead of just fixing it up. It's too bad WOTC couldn't think a little differently, and find a way to support the older settings and older worlds, which would keep the older players, instead of constantly sacrificing the old for the new. For instance.... why not continue to have one supported campaign in each iteration of the game? Like say, continue to support Greyhawk through 2nd Edition supplements, Eberron through 3rd edition supplements, and FR with 4th? I mean, there's so much territory WOTC could explore in each campaign, not necessarily by moving the time lines forward either, but by exploring the past. If you want to encourage the e-distrubutoin element, why not make the stats blocks for different editions available online with the purchase of each product? If you buy a 2nd Edition Greyhawk module, you get an online code that gives you access to the 3rd and 4th eidtion stats for characters, monsters, items, etc?

I don't know... perhaps this is the thinking that bankrupted TSR, and left us in the mess we're in. All I know is, I will likely forever be stuck in 2nd Ed, using copious rule mods and house rules, because that rule set best epitomizes what I love about the game. Hopefully, we will always have places like Canonfire to continue to expand our visions.
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Saracenus
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SUPrUNown,

For all my bitching about version changes in D&D... There is no way I would expect WotC to focus their finite resources on supporting older systems.

Also, supporting settings in only the editions they first appeared is a death knell for them. They couldn't support it because the ROI just isn't there.

Its a cold, hard business decision. Where as our attachments are emotional. We love and hate things about the various versions of D&D. We all have our favorite game worlds and those we loath...

Now, if they provide a means for fans to write support for dead editions and settings without the threat of legal action, then there is where you will find (or not) others with similar interests and you will be the ones moving it forward.

Like I told Eileen before, we are not the target audience of 4e, those of use with huge emotional and monetary interests in previous editions and settings... They need fresh blood to keep this industry alive and growing.

My two coppers,

Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Saracenus
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SUPrUNown
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that it isn't feasible to support older systems. I guess in my idea, I don't see it as supporting older systems, but supporting campaign worlds. But, that's just a difference in vision.
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weaver95
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SUPrUNown wrote:
I agree that it isn't feasible to support older systems. I guess in my idea, I don't see it as supporting older systems, but supporting campaign worlds. But, that's just a difference in vision.


WoTC has a rather large and enthusiastic fan base in GH. Look at LG - thousands of players from around the world, all of whom are dedicated enough to show up at weekend events and conventions (and pay to attend). I'm sure Paizo saw an increase in sales as they started doing more and more adventure paths with a GH setting (I know in my local area they did anyway). Watch the sales of the latest GH book - 'Expedition to the ruins of Castle Greyhawk', i'm sure the book will do a fair number of sales. There is MORE than sufficent evidence to support further product development.

And WoTC *cancels* Living Greyhawk? If we assume (as some of you apparently do) that WoTC is 'merely' a rabidly capitalistic company only interested in their profit margin(s), then why would such an organization IGNORE the obvious profit potential in further development of a popular product line? It would make sense for them to expand production and pump the consumer interest for all it's worth, not to abandon production and sit on the IP rights.

none of this makes any sense to me. I can only assume that there's something going on behind the scenes at WoTC, that for some reason the 'powers that be' over there have decided to let greyhawk lay fallow and to make sure that nobody else does any 'offical' development.

I can't help thinking that someone over there is gearing up to 'wipe the slate clean' as it were and purge any/all remaining GH 'big name' NPCs. I don't know why I've got that feeling...it's just a hunch. I could very well be wrong...but I can't shake the thought that this move by WoTC is more vindictive and petty than smart business sense.
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