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    Reshuffling Devils and Demons in 4e - Oh My!
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    GVDammerung
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    PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:27 am    Post subject: Reshuffling Devils and Demons in 4e - Oh My! Reply with quote

    As GH has lots of lower planar folks running around, I figure the following is germane to CF. This is Rich Baker of Wotc speaking about the new lower planar order in 4e. Seems Wotc is reshuffling the deck a bit -

    - Devils are angels who rebelled. They rose up against the deity they served and murdered him. The crime of deicide is unimaginably perverse for angels, and hence devils were cursed and imprisoned in the Nine Hells.
    - The Nine Hells are what became of the murdered deity's divine realm after his death. The Hells are the devils' prison, and it is difficult for them to get out without mortal aid.
    - We've re-sorted demons and devils a bit, since we want these two categories of monsters to make a little more sense. Devils tend to be more humanoid in form, usually fight with weapons, and often wear armor. Most have horns, wings, and tails. One consequence of this: the erinyes and the succubus were holding down pretty similar territory, so we've decided that they're the same monster, called the succubus, and it's a devil.
    - Ice devils don't look like other devils. We've decided that they are actually a demonic/yugoloth race... one that was entrapped by Mephistopheles long ago in an infernal contract. So ice devils hate other devils, retain their insect-like appearance, and have a special loyalty to Mephistopheles. It's one of the reasons why Asmodeus has never chosen to move against Mephistopheles. Asmodeus would of course win if he did, but that would let the ice devils out of their contract.

    Credit Text - ENWorld.
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    MerricB
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    PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    It might not end up being used in my version of Greyhawk, but I really like this depiction of devils & demons.

    I really like that demons are monsters and devils are humanoid... makes a lot of sense to me. And that Ice Devil thing is just cool. :)

    Cheers!
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    EileenProphetofIstus
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    PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I too agree, this is an improvement on a subject that needed work. In my opinion, this background fits into my idea of Greyhawk far better than the ongoing lingering version that we currently have. I have always seen Greyhawk as more of a real world tie in anyway, with knighthood orders, and other historical ideas incorporated into Greyhawk rather than starting from the ground up with new ideas. I welcome this change. If things continue this direction (especially if WOTC provides some Greyhawk support, I may end up changing my mind about things). Always have to leave a window of opportunity.
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    mortellan
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    PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Groan, here we go again with the tinkering of lower planes creatures. Except now instead of renaming them its a reordering. The new Biblical backstory is fine I guess, but that succubi reversal will put the kibosh on at least one Demonomicon of Iggwilv article (Malcanthet).
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    rasgon
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    PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    mortellan wrote:
    Groan, here we go again with the tinkering of lower planes creatures. Except now instead of renaming them its a reordering. The new Biblical backstory is fine I guess, but that succubi reversal will put the kibosh on at least one Demonomicon of Iggwilv article (Malcanthet).


    Jesus, I didn't even think of that. Way to write an awesome demon lord out of the canon, Rich Baker, you absolute idiot.

    The Biblical backstory fails, in my opinion, because, first, it tries to turn the servants of a single god into a major planar race, and individual gods are just not that important in a cosmology with multiple pantheons, unless we're talking Tharizdun. Secondly, it fails because in core D&D alignments must come first, as the cosmic principles which define the planes. The devils, as an alignment-based planar race, the personifications of lawful evil and the Nine Hells, precede the gods by necessity. The alignments are the planes; the gods only squat on them.

    It also fails because it's so simple-minded; I like my mythology more complex than that, but I guess I shouldn't expect complexity from someone so unimaginative that they can't think of a way to differentiate between succubi and erinyes.
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    Vormaerin
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    PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Its pretty obvious that they are not keen on the personification of alignment concept if that blurb is an accurate guide to their thinking. Admittedly, I don't especially use alignments or the concept of personifications either. But you need to toss them aside with a reason. There doesn't seem to be any real reason other than "umm, we think its insufficient to differentiate demons and devils".

    And /all/ devils are the servants of a single god? As Rasgon says, Umm, just who was this god and why does he rate such high powered and numerous servants? Nothing in D&D to date would be the basis for such at thing.

    Is it going to be harder to summon devils than to summon demons or other races that aren't "imprisoned"? I'm not even going to touch the problem of being unable to differentiate between erinyes and succubi. How weak is that?


    Last edited by Vormaerin on Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    mortellan
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    PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    The more I think about it, not only will 3E and 4E be incompatable so will their cosmologies. The side effect of taking Greyhawk (the original cosmology) out of the Core (like we always wanted) is that they will rewrite the cosmology to be something even MORE generic. Should have seen this coming when they said in the 4E announcement that they want to start using more familiar deities like norse and greek ones, and that Asmodeus would be promoted. Yup, totally different than what we've been used to for decades.
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    gargoyle
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    PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Although there are elements of 4e that I am/was leaning toward anyway, the more I hear about it the less interested I am. Sure, I started to place devils as fallen angels - at least some of them. Sure, my group uses a magic recharge system. Sure, I was thinking at some time of stripping classes down and using a Talent tree type of idea, someday. But 4e is just sounding more and more like a whole different game. Not D&D.
    Not Greyhawk.

    Greyhawk is dead.
    Long live Greyhawk!
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    Cebrion
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    PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    rasgon wrote:
    mortellan wrote:
    The new Biblical backstory is fine I guess, but that succubi reversal will put the kibosh on at least one Demonomicon of Iggwilv article (Malcanthet).


    Jesus, I didn't even think of that. Way to write an awesome demon lord out of the canon, Rich Baker, you absolute idiot.


    Yes! What a vindictive idiot! Wink Rich isn't writing for GH, or with GH in mind, or with any previous Dragon articles in mind most likely, so take that as sarcasm. Still, one can't help to notice the similarity between succubi and erinyes, but I've always differentiated them in how they do what they do, even though it is similar. It would help if there was info on how demons and daemons will fit into the scope of things too, just to aid in illustrating the grand scheme of things to come. We'll have to wait and see, and even then who the heck says we have to use any of it.

    Or you can just say that Malcanthet is a rogue devil who has much more in common with demons and the way they act than with devils and so flourishes among them. Fixed. Simmer down now rasgon, and before you fly off the handle again, look at your *W.W.G.D.* bracelet and ask yourself "What would Gygax do?". Laughing
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    DavidBedlam
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    PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I never had a problem telling Succubi and Erinyes apart:

    Succubi love you to death.

    Erinyes hack you to death with an axe.

    Simple, no?

    Anyway, while you may not like the new stuff, there's nothing stopping you using the old system with your Greyhawk campaigns. When I use the Diabolic legions in my GH games, I'll be using the "Corrupted by the evil they were fighting and their own pride" origin that we got in Fiendish Codex II.

    And as for you Malcanthet fans out there, I'm sure that will a little imagination, you can find a way to keep her in the thick of all things Demonic.
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    rasgon
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    PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Cebrion wrote:
    [Yes! What a vindictive idiot!


    I don't see him as vindictive, but he's clearly a simpleton. I'm sorry, but it's hard for me to imagine anything so lacking in both wit and imagination.

    As for the difference between erinyes and succubi, as handled (brilliantly, I think) by someone with both wit and imagination, I recommend The Ecology of the Succubus and Erinyes. It expanded my mind, and I've never looked at either the same way since.

    Malcanthet as a rogue devil? I apologize again, but no - claiming Chaos can't be sexy is really an affront to the alignment system as a whole. It's bad for the game.
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    DavidBedlam
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    PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Well, we could always homebrew a new monster to replace the chaotic Sucubus. Maybe the Lilin could be used as a base?
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    Telas
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    PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:49 am    Post subject: Does it matter? Reply with quote

    Honestly, does it matter what "core" D&D does with the outer planes? Eberron was entirely different from the core, and it manages fine. So will Greyhawk.

    Rasgon did ping something... if you want to find a reason for Devils to be "cast out", then use Tharizdun. Betrayal during the most important battle of the cosmos (the imprisonment of Tharizdun) sounds like a perfectly good reason to cast them out, and even to force them to be Lawful.

    I look at the sundering between GH and 4E as a Very Good Thing. It's liberating as hell, and lets us play what we want without arguing how to crowbar the latest WotC sourcebook into our dusty shelf of ancient tomes.

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    Vormaerin
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    PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Actually, thinking about this further, I'd begun wondering if they were going to ditch the Great Wheel and that whole cosmology completely. They've moved away from it in the FR, Eberron has a completely different cosmology from the start.. and now this about devils.

    Might we expect something more Ebberon like in the 4e cosmology? I certainly wouldn't be surprised.
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    EileenProphetofIstus
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    PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Vormaerin:

    I don't have Eberron material so can you give me a rundown on how they have the entire cosmology set up?
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    Cebrion
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    PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    The word choice was part of the joke too rasgon. I will smiley you to death if you choose to persist... Laughing

    That ecology articles is good. My offered explanation is of course pointed at those who want to use the any new 4e materail on this subject. I do agree that making succubi and erinyes the same creature(rather than better explaining both) is a solution lacking in imagination, creativity, and smacks of simple laziness.
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    Vormaerin
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    PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I'm not an expert on Ebberon by any means. But, essentially, they don't have any sort of real pattern to the planes. The world of Ebberon is in varying degrees of contact with other dimensions/realities/planes/whatever. There is 13 of them, IIRC. Thirteen is a special number in Eberron lore it seems. They are not all specifically aligned, though some are. Rather, they are the home domains of various creatures or magical powers. They all orbit eberron and their closeness to it and to each other changes.
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    Cebrion
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    PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    That is a good idea. Make a cosmological pattern fit your world, not make your world fit the established cosmological pattern.
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    EileenProphetofIstus
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    PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Cebrion

    Didn't you know by now that it isn't WOTC who are backwards it is us. After all, they create, we buy, they change so it is inconsistent with what they created, so we buy more. By the time 6th edition comes around Gygax will be glad because they will go back to negative A.C., weapon proficiencies, etc. By 7th edition they will try something new and call it THACO, stating WE NEED TO GET BACK TO THE BASICS OF D&D, OH HECK LETS EVEN HAVE AN ADVANCED VERSION.

    By the time they get to 8th edition, are 3.5 books will be up to date again.

    Sarcasm.......
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    Osmund-Davizid
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    PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:33 pm    Post subject: Bah.... Reply with quote

    I have never felt so close to Boccob then now.

    My attitude towards the new editions is uncaring. I still think the changes from 2nd edition were too much!

    A new edition does not thrill me, I never got on board with 3 or 3.5. I just keep plugging away with old school 1st and a smattering of 2nd ed rules. On the occasion I have to look at 3rd ed stuff, I just use it for the fluff and avoid the crunch. Makes it easier to ignore what I don't want to use.

    At any rate, my take on the diabolic and demonic is to keep it in a fantasy setting and less biblical. Inconsistancies are easier to explain away in pure fantasy then basing things on classic myths, literature, or biblical references. That being said, I prefer more Dante and Milton in my Hells then the more "P.C." 2nd ed Planescape setting.

    But to each his own.

    O-D
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    Cebrion
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    PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I'm pretty much of the same mind set in so much as I will not be converting to 4e. When I told my players that 4e had been announced they immediately said that they had no interest in switching to another version of the game. I figured that would be their response.

    The only interest I have in 4e is seeing new ways of doing things, a new perspective. Perhaps 4e will give me some ideas, perhaps not. Either way, 4e is not such a big deal as far as I am concerned. I do hope it turns out good, as that will be a good thing for the game as whole.
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    Luz
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    PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Bah.... Reply with quote

    Osmund-Davizid wrote:

    A new edition does not thrill me, I never got on board with 3 or 3.5. I just keep plugging away with old school 1st and a smattering of 2nd ed rules. On the occasion I have to look at 3rd ed stuff, I just use it for the fluff and avoid the crunch. Makes it easier to ignore what I don't want to use.
    O-D
    I agree with those sentiments whole heartedly, O-D. At first I really liked some of the 3E material about demons and devils, but it really went sideways with 3.5. My biggest beef is how they handle demon princes and arch devils, I wish they'd make up their minds.

    I'm still on the fence about 4E but I'm glad to see they're trying to do more to differentiate the two.After reading The Prince of Demons (Dungeon 150) and seeing "General Ghorvash", "Captain Urbala", and my personal favorite "War-Secretary General Gromsfed" (what does this guy do, the paperwork?) I thought it was in the 9 Hells. And to top it all off, six different new stats for Demogorgon? None of which, I'll add, that match up with the so-called "authoritive" FC1 version. Its inconsistencies like this that just make me shake my head.

    -Trevor Watson
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    DavidBedlam
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Well, I think the 'ranks' in Demogorgon's armies were just demons taking whatever title they liked best, which is one of the benefits of being really powerful: You can have whatever title you like. Laughing

    As for Demo's stats, I think that arch-fiends are always as powerful as needed by the campaign.
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    PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Bah.... Reply with quote

    Luz wrote:
    "War-Secretary General Gromsfed" (what does this guy do, the paperwork?) -Trevor Watson


    Read closer. I think the author was making a pun on a real-life political personage Wink
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    DavidBedlam
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Look who's on the cover of the Monster Manual 4.0:



    Yup. And according to ENWorld he gets stats in there as well. A return to the old days when Archfiends were included in Monster Manuals?

    Also, apparently Asmodeus is getting godhood, which I'm not too wild about. I prefer him as the ultimate embodiment of Law and Evil in the lower planes, and not as just another LE godling.

    F.Y.I., there is also a LE god of corruption and tyrany called Asmodeus in Pathfinder. Just so you know.
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