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4e Points Of Light & Greyhawk
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gargoyle
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cebrion, the example of the modern US you give us is nothing like PoL in that the cities are much more dangerous than the country (I lived in both). In PoL, its the reverse; although cities aren't perfectly safe, they are far safer than the countyside.
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mortellan
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cebrion wrote:
PoL has plenty of room for nations, and in fact doesn’t say there are not any. What it makes a point of is that the nations do not "jealously guard their borders", and by that it means that there are not standing armies of scouts and guards patrolling the borders, let alone every road in the land. They simply do not have the resources and manpower to do so.

No my friend, it quite explicitly says so in the full quote: "The centers of civilization are few and far between, and the world isn’t carved up between nation-states that jealously enforce their borders."
To me this is a direct attempt to steer the theme of D&D away from the theme of Greyhawk which had been their Core world for so long, in order to re-establish the mindset for 4th edition. Why else put this article in a design and development column? They don't want nation-states duking it out in great wars against demigod tyrants, they want localized problems and that is fine.

Quote:
PoL fits Greyhawk perfectly, though people have a habit of thinking that it doesn’t fit *every single place in Greyhawk exactly*, it is therefore not suitable. Since when did any concept cover *everything absolutely*? If there happen to be exceptions that are not covered by the generalities of a concept, it is therefore worthless? Talk about a lack of “grey” to your thinking.
Like I said the concept works for GH on a local scale. I'm warming up to it actually. Rasgon's post about the Greyhawk City domain works for me, but before this article came out when you asked someone to generalize the theme of Greyhawk overall I bet they wouldn't have given you the PoL theme.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

weaver95 wrote:

Just so long as they don't turn the game into a pen and paper version of World of Warcraft.


gargoyle wrote:

It pretty much sounds like they are. Many of the things WotC has discussed about 4E point to it being much like a pen and paper WoW.



weaver95 wrote:

For my part, I'm not entirely sure I understand just why WoTC is taking this particular direction. Eberron and FR won't really fit with the whole 'points of light' idea. Barring major world wide disasters, neither setting lends itself well to the idea of isolated pockets of civilization idea.



From the perspective of someone who never transitioned to 3rd edition, 3E always looked to me to be combat-heavy. That may seem strange, since the D&D game is based around combat, but there ARE other things...my players certainly crave combat, but the part they like most is the politics...making alliences, having followers, intrigue and tension between states, developing the economy of their lands, etc. For me, the transition to 3E seemed to take the game a bit away from role play and a bit closer to combat simulation. Certainly it was designed to encourage min/maxers.

So 4E goes a step further and merges the concept with videogames. The reason the PoL is adopted is because combat now becomes almost exclusively the focus of the game. What more is there to do than fight? Role play can be dispensed with, because classes now have a PRE-DEFINED role, based on the dynamics of group fighting and little else. The PoL world is there to support that. Who needs politics when there are no nation states? Who needs economy when there are no merchants? Since the only thing the PC's will do in 4E is monster-bash, you give them a world with plenty of monsters and little else.
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Cebrion
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mortellan wrote:
No my friend, it quite explicitly says so in the full quote: "The centers of civilization are few and far between, and the world isn’t carved up between nation-states that jealously enforce their borders."


You are explicitly reading the quote all wrong. You are reading it as if there are NO nation states whatsoever rather than reading it as that there ARE nation states, just not ones that have carved up the world into neat little sections that have borders guarded like the Berlin Wall wall in the early 60's. See the distinction? Granted, it is badly worded, but I think it is a misunderstanding to take it as meaning there are no nations whatsoever.

The point is that the nations states are there, just that the border regions are much more lawless, and not well patrolled. The border regions are not under complete control.

*EDIT*

Gargoyle: I chose a city based PoL for a reason. I know the country is different(both sides of my family are country folk, and two very different types at that, but I was raised in the city). Take those cops and put them out in the type of country where The Hills Have Eyes. Vanished without a trace! Time for some adventurers to pay a visit to the work shed, arm up, and go take it to the freaks in the caves. Happy

Vormaerin: While it is true that Medieval Europe what not that benighted a place, it is also a place where all of the fairy tales about trolls and hobgoblins and evil faeries and witches, and a whole horde of other mythological creatures whose goal was to either dominate, enslave, or eat people didn’t exist. Throw all that into the mix along with all of the basic struggles of the times. One might think that the nations might not quite have the amount of control of their territories that they historically did, eh? It almost sounds like it could be Greyhawk to me. Granted, most areas will be relatively safe, but if you leave the light you very well could be entering the darkness. “Settlements afflicted by troubles can only hope for a band of heroes to arrive and set things right.” That quote is just a maguffin for adventure writing, but don’t we really all know that? The damsel/village is in distress, and suddenly the hero(s) show up to solve the problem. It doesn’t mean that it is the only way that problems can hope to be solved, unless of course the dm decides that it is. Adventurers often make of point of looking for trouble, but very often it is trouble that finds them first. It is just one of many means of getting the adventurers involved in the story, but don’t we all know that too? No! It’s the *only * option! ;)

Many people are being a bit too literal in their reading of this article. They seem to have the odd concept rigidly planted in their minds that what the article states is the *only* way things can be, or that it’s the *only* solution. The points brought up will always apply differently depending on situation and location, and more importantly how the dm want to employ them. “But of course things will differ depending on those factors!” you might say, and yet the article is not comprehensive enough to go into that, and so due to these “deficiencies” it is lambasted. I don’t get that. The article is full of generalizations. It is not an all inclusive doctoral thesis on the topic, and should not be taken as such.
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Vormaerin
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By itself, I agree with you about that quote. Its the other quotes, such as the one that I used above, that combine with it make it a problematic concept. Sure, the King of England didn't control all the territory in his country... which was not an especially big one... But he did try and there was *some* authority and attempt to govern. If villagers are really praying for adventurers to save them from calamities, then there isn't a government there. Whether there is a King or not elsewhere.
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Cebrion
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are of course correct, but that is not the point of the problem that is posed when writing an adventure. When an author writes an adventure with a problem, it is written such that *this* particualr problem, at this particuclary time and in this particular place can only be solved by the pc's.

Last time I checked, there weren't a lot of adventures written for adventuring parties made up of night watchmen, the local militia, or the local lord's soldiers. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So much arguing over one little article! Consider this: even if PoL is not true in a literal sense - that is, even if there are relatively safe regions between metropolitan areas - it need not follow that PoL cannot work in GH however you imagine it.

I think the major problem with the article in question is that it failed to mention the reasons for the PoL concept: PoL provides an excuse for adventurers to get involved. Thus, PoL could (and perhaps should) be thought of as a literary device rather than as a description of a given setting.

Consider, for example, the d20 Modern game. Set in the contemporary world, it clearly does not support PoL in a literal sense. But how do people play this game? Do they not set adventures in isolated rural settings, urban sprawls where the police dare not go, or under the very noses of authorities who don't or can't see what's going on? In order for any traditionally written adventure to work, the light of conventional authority must be removed before the adventurers have anything to do. Thus, nothing need be changed in the average campaign setting for PoL to work - in effect, it's already there.

How does this work in GH? In a way, PoL is already a part of the World of Greyhawk and always has been. Consider: how many DM's have run adventures in which a monster has moved into the area and must be hunted down? It happens all the time. How many scenarios have you seen that mention bandit raids? How many times has a village been threatened from a monster/villain/humanoid horde/evil cult from outside the immediate area? In all these instances, a "point of light" is under attack from the outer darkness and other "points of light" are unable to help. The point is not how safely one can travel the regions between points of light; the point is that other points of light don't know about or can't help with the situation at hand. This can happen even in the most thickly populated urban area. Ever hear a story about a serial killer in a major city who murdered dozens and none of his neighbors even knew?

Even though I'd much prefer to lambast WotC (spit!) with another rant, I can't in this case. PoL doesn't change anything. And you need not change anything to accommodate it. PoL is already at work in your campaign whether you realize it or not.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cebrion wrote:
Last time I checked, there weren't a lot of adventures written for adventuring parties made up of night watchmen, the local militia, or the local lord's soldiers. Wink


Perhaps there should be.

You raise an interesting point here, Ceb. Perhaps we old-schoolers are guilty of some of the same things that we accuse WotC's new target audience of doing. I've read about a million posts on these boards (and written a few myself) complaining that the latest crop of roleplayers are more interested in weird character builds and min-maxing combat stats that in more "realistic" (or perhaps you prefer "rational") roleplaying.

But then, wasn't it us old-schoolers who first suggested the idea that one could play a CE assassin who could explore the world killing and looting pretty much as he pleased? Wasn't it us who started the whole tradition of wandering heroes who walk into random isolated villages and right wrongs that the local sheriff can't or won't right himself? Weren't we the ones who created massive world-changing wars when the local dungeon wasn't big enough for us anymore?

I remember introducing a new player to the game back in the mid-80's. The first thing his character did upon entering town was start looking for a job and a place to live. Predictably, I and the other players immediately began to chide him for not having a better understanding of the term "adventurer." But perhaps we shouldn't have. Perhaps we'd already gone too far down the path that leads to World of Warcraft.

So why not design adventurers for the local lord's knights? Why can't your party be members of local law enforcement? We criticize new gamers for their excessively far-fetched characters and blame WotC for encouraging them, but we started it. I don't like many of WotC's recent changes any more than you do, but I have to consider the possibility that 4e and it's blasphemous alterations are merely the next link in a chain we forged ourselves.

With that thought in mind, as much as I hate to say it the Points of Light idea might just be a step back in the right direction.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our group currently is playing a group of city watch in the capital of a nation, and its... kind of dull. None of us are really of the "city watch mindset" either; we want to go slay beasts and reap fabulous treasure. In this campaign, all treasure we find has to be turned over as evidence. The group is about to quit the watch and form a new criminal gang!

We now return you to your original thread, already in progress...
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or maybe we are over evaluating the article. If you look at the other articles WOTC has put out in this same section (such as the elves and the combat against the dragon) clearly a lack of detail is involved in the writing. It appears as if they are generalizations.....possibly not as much to persuade people to switch games but to remind us and get use to the fact that 4th edition is coming and by the time it does we will be ok with buying it.

The articles are so general that reading into the content is easy to do. I did the same thing with the dragon article and in looking back I think it was simply a poorly written example, existing merely for others to get use to it.

It's also being marketed towards a younger crowd.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, clearly I'm looking at the article from a broader perspective than the authors likely are. They are just saying "hey, we are going to write all of our adventures as if they were set in a region like the Wild Coast". If this was a blueprint for a new campaign world, it would be far more troublesome. But its just a default background for generic adventures.

However, the original poster was asking how things would be adapted if this article were generally true of a campaign world.. and GH in particular. An entire world that is the Wild Coast would have a lot of interesting effects, which I'm inclined to think the authors of adventures are going to completely ignore. That's pretty much what my issue with the article is. They are going to want their cake and be able to eat it, too. All the vast resources of "civilization" without any of the encumbrances of government and the like. That'll be kind of blah.

Published adventures for city watch, militia and so on are pretty rare, but not because they aren't a viable strategy. Rather, they impose a lot of overhead on the DM that makes it less likely that he could drop it into his campaign seamlessly. Thus hurting sales. A campaign like that would require a certain amount of work over and above what is necessary to run a more standard "wander around and kill things" campaign. But it can be a lot of fun. You just need to be careful about choosing a setting and organization that are conducive to the sorts of adventures you and your players want to run.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*rants a bit more for fun*

Why am I the only one who doesn't want Greyhawk to fit into their genercized medieval fantasy vision? Don't we always rail here against Greyhawk being watered down or being seen as identical to other settings like Faerun? (calls out GVD) I don't think its reading too much into it when this generalized article eschews one important thing that sets Greyhawk and other settings apart. I don't think it's an accident either. I'll give PoL can work in GH, I'll even give nation-states are possible in the PoL theme, but I am firmly conspiratorial when I say this article, when taken in the context for which it was written (4th edition and LFR), is slanted to a new audience (as Eileen says, younger); one that won't have to worry about the 'Greyhawk Wars factor'. That's all. Everything else is fine. But that one factor is what can distinguish GH from other settings not make them like all the others.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My initial reaction to the POL article was a 1st edition feel, which I like. However, if one delves deeper into it, it does seem to imply that there are a reduced number of highly establshed and well run kingdoms.

I think the intended audience is for the younger as I already mentioned.

I like the idea of a 1st edition feel (though I don't know if that was their intent), I'm guessing they are reducing the game further to become more and more of a power play and this type of setting assists that type of play.

When I was quite a bit younger and DMing Greyhawk in the early 80's, I recall being intimidated by all the kingdoms, wishing at the time that there was more wilderness in between. Looking back on things years now I appreciate the world design as it is. I was intimidated because I was younger, less mature. Now I'm older and ready to handle a more complex campaign, and thus appreciate Greyhawk all the more and am now able to deal with the large scale mid-evil type societies it holds.

Younger audience, simplier ideas.

To get back to the origianl purpose of the post, here's what I plan on doing to incorporate the POL concept:

Well established regions like Greyhawk, Furyondy, (essentially kingdoms with more financial backing or those with a greater civilized feel to them) will remain a collection of fiefs and lesser territories which are pretty well populated. I'll post more patrols, watch towers, etc. on my maps in order to protect the roads for merchants and my random encounter tables will reflect this as well with a higher degree of patrol encounters, less bandits, less powerful monsters, and those that appear will be in smaller numbers.

In the less civilized regions, such as the Wild Coast, shield lands, pomarj, near borders of places like the barrier peaks, near the swamps, forests, etc. the random encounter tables become less friendly. Bigger monsters, more of them within an encounter, less patrols, that sort of thing.

Anything I can do to give Greyhawk more of a 1st edition feel, I will do. I see the POL as a reminder of what I can do, not what I should or have to do. For me, Greyhawk already has much of this basic concept placed into areas....I'll just enhance them a bit in order to give each area a more personal feel.
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Cebrion
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gargoyle: Now that really cracks me up! Happy Not only are you running around within the point of light, you are repesenting the light. And now, not only do you want to leave the light and venture out into some more interesting darkneess, you want to become an element of the darkness yourselves! Laughing That is too good, and once again, its all PoL, but taken in a totally different way not described within the whole PoL article. This serves to illustrate to some extent the point I am making. PoL is just a guide, to be deviated from as one wills. As stated, it will fit some areas of any campaign world exactingly, but perhaps not all of them, and that is when you make the usually miniscule changes needed to suit the situation.

O blinding Points of Light,
O Points of Light that blinds,
I cannot see,
Look out for me!

See how easily Points of Light fits into Greyhawk?

Mort: You should have overloaded the plasma core on the ship in the Barrier Peaks when you had the chance. Now there is no hope!Shocked

Resistance is futile! You will be assimilated!
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mortellan wrote:
. . . the full quote: "The centers of civilization are few and far between, and the world isn’t carved up between nation-states that jealously enforce their borders."
To me this is a direct attempt to steer the theme of D&D away from the theme of Greyhawk which had been their Core world for so long, in order to re-establish the mindset for 4th edition. . . .


Kirt wrote:
. . . The reason the PoL is adopted is because combat now becomes almost exclusively the focus of the game. What more is there to do than fight? Role play can be dispensed with, because classes now have a PRE-DEFINED role, based on the dynamics of group fighting and little else. The PoL world is there to support that. Who needs politics when there are no nation states? Who needs economy when there are no merchants? Since the only thing the PC's will do in 4E is monster-bash, you give them a world with plenty of monsters and little else.


I think these quotes sum it up quite well. Wotc has seen the World of Warcraft's success and then want in. Too bad all they have is paper and pencil. But maybe if they paper and pencil a WoW D&D they can then license that D&D to a video game maker to make a reversed engineered (from the paper and pencil D&D) D&D World of Warcraft like game!

Now, of course, they are not going to come out and say that they are working to manuver the paper and pencil D&D brand to a point where it will translate into a video game like WoW. That doesn't mean they aren't going to do so. From a purely business standpoint WoW eats D&D's financial lunch and makes D&D cry all the way home to Hasbro. And Hasbro say, "Why can't you be more like that WoW. Stand up for yourself, you little wimp." So, Wotc dries its eyes; fixes its stare and marches off to be like the bully who just kicked its ****. Trouble is, that's not what the fan base is used to and there is no guarantee 1) that the existing fanbase will come around or 2) that a new fan base will develop in greater or equal numbers to the old fan base.

D&D its taking its life in its hands (and our hobby) with this PoL and 4e. Model railroading anyone?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the PoL thing sets up politics and trade etc. merely as setups to a fight and that it is the fighting that is supposed to be the attractive part of the game. Of course, combat has always ben a critical part of the game, but I think the PoL makes it more exclusively so.

The problem with this, IMO, is that it makes no practical sense within the context of the game world. If howling wilderness seperates these PoLs, how can the PoL's have developed much in the way of civilization without heretofore having tamed this howling wilderness? You cannot achieve high levels of civilization the like of which appear in the pseudo-medieval fantasy of D&D without trade in knowledge, goods, and raw materials. The howling wilderness that seperates the PoL's makes the necessary trade a near impossibility. Hence the PoL makes no sense given the level of civilization depicted in the game.

Of course, Greyhawk's ridiculously low population numbers present a similar difficulty and they have been papered over. So, I guess PoL would only require a little more indulgence in the "fantasy." That lack of realism, however, I find undercuts the fantastic, rendering it instead implausible, and depending on the execution, even silly.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mortellan wrote:
*rants a bit more for fun*

Why am I the only one who doesn't want Greyhawk to fit into their genercized medieval fantasy vision? Don't we always rail here against Greyhawk being watered down or being seen as identical to other settings like Faerun? (calls out GVD) I don't think its reading too much into it when this generalized article eschews one important thing that sets Greyhawk and other settings apart. I don't think it's an accident either. I'll give PoL can work in GH, I'll even give nation-states are possible in the PoL theme, but I am firmly conspiratorial when I say this article, when taken in the context for which it was written (4th edition and LFR), is slanted to a new audience (as Eileen says, younger); one that won't have to worry about the 'Greyhawk Wars factor'. That's all. Everything else is fine. But that one factor is what can distinguish GH from other settings not make them like all the others.


What can I say? I thoroughly agree with the sentiments expressed above. My only contention is that PoL doesn't affect Greyhawk one way or another because, IMV, Greyhawk has always had the PoL concept in place. Even given the Greyhawk Wars and similar events, PoL changes nothing. It's still not a good idea to walk in Greyhawk City alone at night, it's still dangerous to travel from Nyrond to Furyondy, and monsters are still wandering the highways looking for poorly defended parties to eat. I think PoL is a reasonably accurate description of Oerth as it currently is. In other words, I think you're straining at a gnat here.

Perhaps I misunderstand your position, mort. In your view, how exactly does PoL differ from Greyhawk as it currently exists?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My position is hard to define right now. When Living FR comes out in 2008, my gut tells me this will be how the PoL theme is put into application. The writer of the article denies this adventure writing theme will affect established worlds but there is already buzz in the FR community to counter that. And when has Wizards ever lied to us, eh?

Let me put my neck out one more time. Points of Light wants you to focus on the local picture, not the big picture. And as part of this exercise their very first point is to not have nation-states with border issues involved so you can focus on the creepy local problems. That's it. Many people probably don't like the socio-political backdrop anyways and would like to forget such gems as Greyhawk Wars, Border Watch and Patriots of Ulek. These would not be written in the current climate.

Hey Cebrion, am I still on track?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now you're more on track. As to those titles you are likely correct that such topics will not be handled, and if they are they will not be the usual offering. Still, that doesn't cause a campaign world to suddenly implode.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mortellan wrote:
My position is hard to define right now. When Living FR comes out in 2008, my gut tells me this will be how the PoL theme is put into application. The writer of the article denies this adventure writing theme will affect established worlds but there is already buzz in the FR community to counter that. And when has Wizards ever lied to us, eh?


Here is the link the the author's statement that PoL will not affect established campaigns:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13619017&postcount=6

It all depends on what the extent of the FR reset is... we will know when the Grand History of the Realms comes out:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/fracc/9780786947317

If they destroy a bunch of nations, the Rich Baker is right, PoL will not affect FR :-/

I agree that the adventure writing will probably focus on the hinterlands of Faerun and those hoping to adventure in Cormyr (providing they don't nuke it) are probably out of luck.

My Two Coppers,

Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Saracenus
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GVDammerung
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saracenus wrote:
mortellan wrote:
My position is hard to define right now. When Living FR comes out in 2008, my gut tells me this will be how the PoL theme is put into application. The writer of the article denies this adventure writing theme will affect established worlds but there is already buzz in the FR community to counter that. And when has Wizards ever lied to us, eh?


Here is the link the the author's statement that PoL will not affect established campaigns:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13619017&postcount=6

It all depends on what the extent of the FR reset is... we will know when the Grand History of the Realms comes out:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/fracc/9780786947317

If they destroy a bunch of nations, the Rich Baker is right, PoL will not affect FR :-/

I agree that the adventure writing will probably focus on the hinterlands of Faerun and those hoping to adventure in Cormyr (providing they don't nuke it) are probably out of luck.

My Two Coppers,

Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Saracenus


I was just reading up on the changes that are alleged to be coming to FR. Sounds like FR will get a "From the Ashes" experience. Apparently, 4e magic is so different from 3x that they have decided the Realms needs to be "updated," that and they need to be able to sell more and different regional modules. So,FR gets a facelift to facilitate both. Kinda glad GH is sitting this one out.
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, me too, GVD. The "spell plague" idea seems late enough that I'm very glad it won't be sullying my beloved Oerth. At least, not until 2010 at the earliest. Even if it does get a 4e update, I suspect they won't merely copy the solutions of the FR team (particularly not if they smarten up and put Mona and co. at the helm).
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mortellan wrote:
Points of Light wants you to focus on the local picture, not the big picture.


Oh, NOW I get it. If this is what you're concerned about, then I'm with you. I still maintain that PoL won't affect most situations, since most adventures deal with local events that occur more-or-less in a vacuum. However, you're right that those "international" type adventures will be screwed over. Given the above comments regarding the possibility of revamping everything to accommodate the 4e magic system, I'm just as concerned as you are.

I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea for all us GH enthusiasts to be really, really quiet for a year or three. Maybe if we don't make a fuss they'll assume nobody loves Greyhawk anymore and they'll let it slip into obscurity. Perhaps that way GH will escape being raped by WotC's goon squad of designers. Just a thought.
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A little off the subject but it does pertain to the last couple of posts:

Maybe Greyhawk can sit this one out (4 edition), and wait until WOTC no longer has the license to D&D. Perhaps when the time comes, someone else will bring back Greyhawk in order for an entire new generation of gamers to enjoy.

I for one would be against a major reconstruction of Greyhawk. I'd rather keep what I have and wait it out.
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Saracenus
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EileenProphetofIstus wrote:

<SNIP>
Maybe Greyhawk can sit this one out (4 edition), and wait until WOTC no longer has the license to D&D. Perhaps when the time comes, someone else will bring back Greyhawk in order for an entire new generation of gamers to enjoy.
<SNIP>


Um, Eileen. Unless WotC/Hasbro goes out of business (so remote, that it boggles the mind) or they sell the D&D license to someone else (more likely than the former, but still not very likely) I don't see D&D jumping ship.

WotC doesn't want the competition for mind share so the idea they would release the Greyhawk property without D&D (Saracenus starts crazy laughter at the thought of this) is vanishingly small.

So, I wouldn't hold your breath for your scenario to come to pass...

Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Saracenus
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