<holds out a red pill in one hand and a blue pill in the other hand>
This is your last chance, GVDammerung. After this, there is no going back. You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in third edition and you believe whatever you want to believe.
You take the red pill and you stay in forth edition and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
Remember, all I am offering you is the truth. Nothing more.
Just as a quibble, no one but serious GH folks thinks Lolth is a demoness. Her FR version as a full fledged goddess with her own realm and mini pantheon of subordinates is the official one. She just happens to live in the Abyss (and not even that, now, IIRC). So the drow are fine... or no better or worse than they were before.
Lolth, in 4th edition, lives in the Abyss and retains the title "demon queen of spiders," but is explicitly a goddess (the sister of Sehanine), not a demon as such.
Yeah, unless you started with Greyhawk there's never been any confusion about whether Lolth is a demoness or a Goddess. She was a demoness in 1e GH (and like all the major demon lords, effectively a lesser god). But once the FR came out and in every edition of the game since then (ie, 2, 3, & 4) she's been a goddess who happens to live in the Abyss.
Big Mac, a great place to start would be the Oerth Journal. Maybe you already use it, I don't know. Fear not, there will be a lot of 3.5 around!
Thanks for your best wishes. I've not read all the Oerth Journal's yet, but I've put them into my reading queue. As the "star product" of Canonfire!, I know they are going to be good.
Actually since the announcement of 4th edition, I've been buying a ton of 3rd edition products, so I'm going to spend the next year reading 3.0 and 3.5 D&D rules. _________________ David 'Big Mac' Shepheard<br />My Greyhawk links: http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9355<br />(If I am not here, you can find me at the Greyhawk or Chainmail forums at The Piazza.)<br />
The Oerth Journal is a separate entity from Canonfire!, but a lot of contributors to The Oerth Journal are members of the Canonfire! website. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Not at all. The Oerth Journal is a free fan e-zine, and as such it requires no license of any kind. The authors who contribute to The Oerth Journal are free to stick to GSL guidelines or not, write for whatever rules system they want to(though we do prefer conversion notes for 3.5e to be included, or permission given for us to develop and include them on our own). The GSL is for third parties that want to sell products that are compatible with D&D 4e, and so certain guidelines must be adhered to if they wish to do that. Basically, if you want to say that your product is compatable with 4e and make money off of it, then you need to have a GSL and follow its guidelines exactingly. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:43 pm; edited 2 times in total
I hope you're right. After reading over certain sections it looks like WOTC is wanting to clamp down on what is out there. Something doesn't feel right about this new license. _________________ Agape,
Maybe its just me, but I don't see the Demon = Elemental disconnect. Balor (Balrogs in OD&D) were certainly based on Tolkien's Balrogs which were corrupted Fire-themed Maia....elementals for lack of a better term. The Temple of Elemental Evil certainly had the Elemental & Demonic connection.
4E has made HUGE changes to a lot of things, and Greyhawk modified to fit all those changes would be a very difefernt setting. This would be a way bigger change than From the Ashes.
If you like the mechanical changes in 4E, it's probably not that hard to ignore most of the new fluff, and use older background material. Be prepared to do some houseruling and trimming, natch. GFit 4E top Greyhawk, rather than Greyhawk to 4E.
My approach exactly CombatMedic. Another thing -- I hate struggling with adapting mechanics but I've found 4e to be much easier to do this with than 3 and 3.5. Maybe that's just me though, and I haven't really had the chance to test out these adaptations for play yet, although I'm hoping to be able to kick off a 4e GH campaign by December or January if not sooner.
I remember reading somewhere that some demons can grant power indirectly. kinda like the power is actually granted by a evil god in the name of the demon to promote evil and the worshipper is none the wiser.
The lack of druids and bard is a nuisance, with those two classes being more important in Greyhawk than any other published campaign world.
I know this going back a ways but I severely disagree with this. Yes they played an important role in GH,but FR was more a showcase for these classes. WoTC will most likely come out with them in some sort of Moonshaes supplement.
With that being said nothing after the mid 80's is canon in my campaign. That means the garbage in FtA is not worth mentioning. Lolth will always be a Demon Queen.
I don't see how 4e has majorly changed Greyhawk. In fact, there are many core changes that are beneficial to the history of Greyhawk. Take Teleportation and Planar Travel. In all previous editions, it was very easy to Teleport and Fly around. It was so easy I felt the "missing" continents fluff was bogus. Why sail a ship to Fireland when Overland flight and Teleport with Error is cheaper than a galleon and readily available? Just put on a Ring of Sustenance, Drink potions of Remove Fatigue and fly the entire globe - done.
Scaling back spell power is very Greyhawk, that's one of the reasons I like 4e so much. I don't have to stress how Greyhawk is rather magic light. The fluff supported that good ole fashioned sweat needed to get the job done. Also, "martial" characters are no longer marginalized in 4e like they were in previous editions. You can play a Gord the Rogue character and not get pasted by the host of creatures immune to Sneak Attack/Backstab anymore.
The change in Demon/Devil is a bit more to my liking. I've run and played in Temple of Elemental Evil in every edition so far (I've converted it to 4e and I'm "steering" the characters to it after Return to Keep on the Borderlands ). Connecting Demons to Elemental Chaos more clearly defines their place in the universe. It also serves to abolish the needless symmetry that was so pervasive. Finally, I've seen nothing in the Demon Princes was changed, except that Yeenoghu was given a 2nd chance The chaotic nature of demons in 4e better serves the fluff that Orcus relinquished his role as Tenebrous.
Tieflings and Dragonborn:
Hmm... They've been around for a long time but their presence in GH, not so much. It's easy to point out that all non-humans are side lined in GH. I introduced Tieflings as the victims of misidentity. Cambions exist in GH, no reason to name drop there. Adding Tieflings was as simple as adding them to regions long associated with demons, devils, and curses - Great Kingdom, Northern Wastes, Bright Desert (technically a scorpion curse but good enough for me), Empire of Iuz, and Pomarj. Given the rich history of Cambions in GH, I don't see the addition of Tieflings as something radically new.
Dragonborn, on the other hand, are a bit more problematic. The only way I could introduce them was to stick them in areas with Lizardmen and wandering as mercenary nomads. I didn't want to stick them in "uncivilized regions" that already have an excellent background like Amedio Jungle. Refusing to give them a hone I stuck them in hostile areas that need warriors and gladiators. I would have dropped them but the players are interested so *shrug*
The changes in item creation gives players a reason to adventure. In 1e it wasn't easy to create magic items, not like in 3e. In 3e it was very easy to create magic items that were much higher than your level. Why quest when you could create items for less money then you could sell them? As Gygax said, "It's like cheating at Solitaire." The need to quest for items is the OD&D I remember. Artificers, Item Creation Feats, and 50% trade-in-value is not.
For me, the mechanics better supports the original fluff. Well, as for the new fluff... The new fluff is irrelevant whenever I want it to be.
I don't see how 4e has majorly changed Greyhawk. In fact, there are many core changes that are beneficial to the history of Greyhawk. Take Teleportation and Planar Travel. In all previous editions, it was very easy to Teleport and Fly around. It was so easy I felt the "missing" continents fluff was bogus. Why sail a ship to Fireland when Overland flight and Teleport with Error is cheaper than a galleon and readily available? Just put on a Ring of Sustenance, Drink potions of Remove Fatigue and fly the entire globe - done.
These abilities are only available to higher level adventurers, so I'd hardly call them common. What high level adventurers do(or can do) does not set the tone for a campaign world. Adventurers don't know how to get everywhere. Places are simply unknown to them, they don't know their way everywhere, and you can't just go down to the local open air market to pick up rings of sustenance and potions of remove fatigue by the crate. Besides, have you checked out how quickly the fly spell goes? 30 ft. per round? That is about 3.5 miles per hour. A person on foot can walk faster and cover more ground in a day than that, and if you do have crates of remove fatigue potions then you can go even farther than that. And does your wizard really have the ability to cast that many fly spells to begin with, or overland flight spells? That's a 5th level spell, yet it does last 1 hour per level. Still, do you have crates of potions of overland flight too? You better, but I don't think magic is quite that common in Greyhawk or anywhere else other than video-game campaign land where stores never run out of rare commodities(because they aren't rare to begin with). The PCs in my campaign don’t have money just pouring out of their pockets, so they don’t spend in on crates of potions and scrolls(not that they are there to buy anyways), and neither do they usually spend it on making such things themselves. With the addition of having to spend experience points when making magic items in 3.0/3.5e, the PCs and NPCs in my campaign at least are even more covetous of magic items, and are less likely to make them unless they are permanent and are specifically for themselves. That is some nicely built in magic control if you ask me.
As to services, just because the DMGs have given parameters for buying spell services, that doesn't mean some high level NPC doesn't have more important things to do that waste their time casting teleport without error to transport a bunch of schmucks to what is likely a dangerous adventure locale. 4e gives the impression that magic is readily accessible more so than any other edition by literally putting magic items in the equipment section of the PHB. Not only does this give the impression that magic is common, it sort of kills the mystery of it when every player knows everything about every magic item. DMs might as well chuck out the main list of items and make up their own instead, as that will put the mystery back in.
What you do in your own campaign is of course up to you, but I don't see 4e as toning down magic by any means. Anybody can use a potion, and even a scroll now, so I'd say that is proof enough that magic is just a power that, once put down on paper, can be used/abused by anyone- even those with literally no magical training whatsoever. 4e has opened up the use of magic, not curtailed it. As for me, instead of just flying/teleporting/plane shifting everywhere, the PCs in my campaign ride horses, sail on ships, and enjoy any encounters they have along the way.
I don't want to turn this into a flame thread but it's pretty clear that you're just making a knee jerk reaction and you're dead wrong on several areas.
The major difference between the previous editions is the lack of "Perpetual Motion" in 4e. In previous editions, as you'll soon see, rapid travel is often free and easy (note: if you can't keep a campaign going for 5 levels you need some DM help). It cost nothing and with the aid of other spells, it lasts forever. Wizards can cast many spells that cost nothing but a single round. In 4e magic, though available, is extremely expensive and fades. The fact that it's available is nothing new as far as previous editions are concerned. The fact that it costs a king's ransom when previously it was free is a massive change for the better. When it takes several hundred-thousand gold and an epic spell to teleport to an unknown location as opposed to under 3000gp the former seems like a much better reason to just take a boat.
Cebrion wrote:
AtomicPope wrote:
I don't see how 4e has majorly changed Greyhawk. In fact, there are many core changes that are beneficial to the history of Greyhawk. Take Teleportation and Planar Travel. In all previous editions, it was very easy to Teleport and Fly around. It was so easy I felt the "missing" continents fluff was bogus. Why sail a ship to Fireland when Overland flight and Teleport with Error is cheaper than a galleon and readily available? Just put on a Ring of Sustenance, Drink potions of Remove Fatigue and fly the entire globe - done.
These abilities are only available to higher level adventurers, so I'd hardly call them common. What high level adventurers do(or can do) does not set the tone for a campaign world. Adventurers don't know how to get everywhere. Places are simply unknown to them, they don't know their way everywhere, and you can't just go down to the local open air market to pick up rings of sustenance and potions of remove fatigue by the crate. Besides, have you checked out how quickly the fly spell goes? 30 ft. per round? That is about 3.5 miles per hour. A person on foot can walk faster and cover more ground in a day than that, and if you do have crates of remove fatigue potions then you can go even farther than that. And does your wizard really have the ability to cast that many fly spells to begin with, or overland flight spells? That's a 5th level spell, yet it does last 1 hour per level. Still, do you have crates of potions of overland flight too? You better, but I don't think magic is quite that common in Greyhawk or anywhere else other than video-game campaign land where stores never run out of rare commodities(because they aren't rare to begin with). The PCs in my campaign don’t have money just pouring out of their pockets, so they don’t spend in on crates of potions and scrolls(not that they are there to buy anyways), and neither do they usually spend it on making such things themselves. With the addition of having to spend experience points when making magic items in 3.0/3.5e, the PCs and NPCs in my campaign at least are even more covetous of magic items, and are less likely to make them unless they are permanent and are specifically for themselves. That is some nicely built in magic control if you ask me.
You're incorrect on several points:
* Fly is speed 90 (3.0 PHB page 206) - a person cannot cover the distance with a brisk walk quicker than a flyer. Ever.
* Expeditious Retreat stacks with flight improving the total speed to 120ft per round, not including running. Together they improve a character's normal flight to another character's run speed.
* Permanancy - it's a simple 5th level spell that makes this all possible on the cheap.
* Experience Points - experience points are meaningless to NPC's. They're a reward system for PC's. Don't think so? When have you ever docked an NPC experience points for not showing up? The answer is never. If experience points are so important then why sell any magic items at all? Magic items should never be for sale if exp was as important to NPC's are you're pretending it is. Then once you add the Arificer class and BoVD, the EXP cost is easily circumvented.
* Highlevel exclusiveness - 5th level is not high level in any edition of D&D, and 9th level is just mid-level. In 4e Wizards get access to Fly at 16th level, over three times the level of previous editions.
* NPC's in your campaign - It's all well and good to point out that NPC's in your campaign don't do this or that but we're not talking about campaigns, or your campaign, we're talking about system mechanics. If you want to talk canon, which I was doing, then canon NPC's are interested in circumnavigating the globe. I made a direct reference to Roger Moore's The Adventure Begins and sailing to Fireland. For less than half the cost of a standard expedition, you could magically equip a team of explorers that could fly indefinitely without the need of food or rest. Finding someone to cast a 5th level spell is much easier than forking over 30,000gp for a boat, plus crew, plus supplies.
Cebrion wrote:
As to services, just because the DMGs have given parameters for buying spell services, that doesn't mean some high level NPC doesn't have more important things to do that waste their time casting teleport without error to transport a bunch of schmucks to what is likely a dangerous adventure locale. 4e gives the impression that magic is readily accessible more so than any other edition by literally putting magic items in the equipment section of the PHB. Not only does this give the impression that magic is common, it sort of kills the mystery of it when every player knows everything about every magic item. DMs might as well chuck out the main list of items and make up their own instead, as that will put the mystery back in.
Nice display of double standards. Everything in the 3e PHB suggests that PC's can purchase spells because they're prices are located in the Equipment section. If PC's can't buy a 5th level spell when they're 7th level, why put it in the PHB? It sort of kills the mystery of exploration when every spell in the PHB is available for purchase. It's obvious that you're not interested in being even handed. The same analysis should be applied to the 3e PHB as the 4e. Instead, you resort to belittling a logical game solution. Should magic items be in the DMG? They shouldn't. The only purpose for magic items to exist is to serve, aid, and reward the players. By all counts they should have always been in the PHB - after all, it's a handbook that players are supposed to use. It's the handbook that is supposed to contain things for players.
I understand what you're saying about mystery but it rings hollow. In reality most players buy the DMG because it has magic items and/or they've taken item creation feats and they can't create wondrous items without it. In 4e the DMG has nothing a player needs. Everything in the 4e DMG is dedicated to campaign creation, monster creation, trap creation, diseases, environmental hazards, roleplaying, creating encounters (combat and noncombat) and handing out rewards (exp and treasure). Players don't buy the new DMG because it doesn't have magic items.
Cebrion wrote:
What you do in your own campaign is of course up to you, but I don't see 4e as toning down magic by any means. Anybody can use a potion, and even a scroll now, so I'd say that is proof enough that magic is just a power that, once put down on paper, can be used/abused by anyone- even those with literally no magical training whatsoever. 4e has opened up the use of magic, not curtailed it. As for me, instead of just flying/teleporting/plane shifting everywhere, the PCs in my campaign ride horses, sail on ships, and enjoy any encounters they have along the way.
Based on the fact that you've completely misinterpreted the 4e magic system, I'm not surprised. For starters, potions were always usable by anyone. Nothing new here. What is new is the limitations on magic items. Magic items cannot duplicate Class Powers. No scroll exist for class powers. No Potion exists for Class Powers. Can a scoll of Fly exist? No. Fly is a Wizard Utility power, not a Ritual Spell. It cannot exist. Spend some time researching the issues next time please.
A quick look at travel magic will clearly demonstrate how magic is less available in 4e. Lets look at Scroll cost shall we?
3e Teleport Without Error - Caster Level 13, cost 2,275gp
4e True Portal (the only teleport spell that doesn't need another teleportation circle) - Caster Level 28, cost 425,000gp
That makes your comments look pretty darn ridiculous. In 4e you can only teleport to known circles until you're epic level. That's a big limitation. A huge limitation. In 3e a 9th level character can teleport with no cost. In 4e you cannot teleport for free. Ever. It always cost money. The high cost changes everything. Now there is always risk vs reward. Campaign interrupting magic is tied to a great cost. In previous editions it didn't make sense that Demon Princes didn't stomp around where ever they pleased because planar travel and teleportation occurred free of charge. After all, you only needed to be 9th level to use planar travel, then teleport to your destination. In 3e at 13th level I could say, "Lets teleport to Fireland." *Poof* We're there. No cost. No miss chance. It's free, and I can get us all back in time for dinner.
No flaming intended at all, and you pointed out something I negligently missed- no scrolls for class powers. That is a very important distinction. There are rituals that allow for travel(linked portal, planar portal), so anybody can use scrolls of those(which goes more to my point). Some of the rituals do have very high level requirements though(true portal- 28th level). I expect a lot more class powers and rituals to show up in further books, and it will be interesting to see what levels are set for certain types of class powers and rituals.
As to what qualifies for high level in a campaign, I'll just leave you with one of my favorite 1e quotes:
"Inform those players who have opted for the magic-user profession that they have just completed a course of apprenticeship with a master who was of unthinkably high level (at least 6th!)." --DMG p. 39
I took that quote to heart(obviously), as I did the momentousness of actually reaching "name level" in 1e. "That's right Sir Bedvere! You're not a lowly "Justiciar" any longer- you're actually a full-on freakin' "Paladin" now big guy!" And then there are all of those legendary Greyhawk leaders and other NPCs in the 83’ boxed set who barely have levels in the double digits. To me, and many of the people I know, a PC being close to those levels *IS* high-level. This of course also goes to the original 1e adventures where levels 1-6 or so were "low level", 7-11 or so were "mid-level", and 12+ were "high level", so you are wrong about double digit levels not being considered "high level" in any edition of the game. GDQ for example was not a "mid-level" adventure. All of that has colored my view of what "high level" means, so it does seem a little bit over the top to me when people talk about magicking up a whole adventuring party for a first class flight on “Air Adventure”. This really is all a matter of perspective though, and one that has changed only slightly for me with the passing of the game editions.
It's much cheaper to buy passage on a ship than to literally buy a ship. I'd say that alone undercuts the costs of the magical expedition in prior game editions. Most DMs I know of don't have PCs in their campaigns who have tens of thousands of gold pieces in reserve just for travel expenses anyways. Fly speed is also 60 feet base per the SRD; 40 with a medium load(which would not be uncommon). But, I was going with overland flight as it has a duration of 1 hour /level, and which has a base speed of 40 feet; 30 feet with a medium load. Perhaps I should have assumed a light load though as each character would of course have the megabucks to spend on a a bag of holding and a handy haversack. I was speaking more in generalities though. I know 3.Xe sites the purchase of certain things like spells and items. I was merely inferring that such is still the way of things in 4e; not using any sort of double standard. 4e is not so much better, but for the most part is just more of the same(in this regard at least). Putting magic items in the PHB equipment section does give a certain impression about their availability though.
I only find it slightly odd that fly is such a high level power now, as not being able to be engaged by grounded enemies is such a huge advantage(16th level though?). I'll certainly agree with you that merely getting access to travel spells is now *MUCH* more delayed in 4e(I hadn't looked at the levels on *all* of the rituals in detail). We’ll need to wait and see how many new magic items will be added to sections like Potions and other more readily available one-shot items, and if there will be broader parameters set out for the Enchant Magic Item ritual. As it is now, I think it is a good thing to make the PCs slog it across the campaign world, as magic cannot so readily solve their travel problems quite as easily in 4e.
Yep. I’d have to be agreeing with you on most of your points, and with only a few exceptions.
"Inform those players who have opted for the magic-user profession that they have just completed a course of apprenticeship with a master who was of unthinkably high level (at least 6th!)." --DMG p. 39
hehehe
That reminds me of 1e level training. Wait! You're not 3rd level, you need to pass your exams. I miss level training
Sometimes. My monk I played for years, back in 1st Edition's hayday, lost twice (he had to fight for his levels). Falling a few levels behind is rough.
Back on topic. WotC said specifically they wanted to cut back on "travel spells" to make travel part of the adventure. As a DM, I like to showcase a vibrant setting like GH. That's one of the main reasons I turned to 4e. It allowed me to create a campaign with a sense of direction I like the idea that there are hidden portals all over Greyhawk (like in Against the Giants) which need to be disabled or destroyed to help win the war.
Actually, I'm running a Greyhawk Wars campaign. The PC's have traveled quite a bit already. They're 3rd level and still ride in caravans. When they're finished with this story arc they'll probably have their own horses. We'll see. I like the idea that characters need to roleplay in order to gain access to a city's Portals, beit a merchant's guild or Grey College. The task to gain favor is level based. For example, if they want to Portal Access to Greyhawk sooner then I'd like I'll make it a 6th level story quest - escort Ghent to Schwartzenbruin, you'll meet him in Highfolk - or something like that. The players then deal with annoying comic relief for a few sessions while skirting the Razing Line. At that point the game is less about me "steering" players and more about me challenging them. They get what they want - rapid travel to the City of Thieves - but they have to earn it. Therefore, I get what I want - a chance to foreshadow the War's outcome should the PC's lose sight of their goals.
As a DM I feel 4e allows more of a compromise between players themselves and with the DM. It's by no means perfect and there are still a few holes I'm sure. However, overlap of power is difficult to come by and travel magic is costly. Travel runs roughly around 1/2 base price of a magic item. That means if a player wants to "run off in a huff" it will cost him/her one magic item. It's not that people won't make foolish decisions. But it does mean they'll pay now AND later
Yes, but your fighters weren't creating clones of themselves or enchanting items or any number of other non-fightery things.
I do like the idea behind curtailing travel spells, but fly could have been much lower as it has a very limited duration. Limiting those spells that can be used to transport lots of individuals practically wherever they want is a good idea though. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Yes, but your fighters weren't creating clones of themselves or enchanting items or any number of other non-fightery things.
I do like the idea behind curtailing travel spells, but fly could have been much lower as it has a very limited duration. Limiting those spells that can be used to transport lots of individuals practically wherever they want is a good idea though.
Yeah, that's one of those sticky bits I'm not entirely sure about. Fly is limited to 5min in 4e. I don't know if it's simply a way to keep players from being nigh untouchable at lower levels to monsters or what but I assume that's the reason.
Players don't have nearly as much access to other "anti-monster" abilities like Invisibility anymore. In most cases it lasts until the end of your next turn. Wizards can turn people Invisible but it requires a standard action to maintain. Even most monsters don't have long lasting Invisibility powers. Same with Domination. It lasts for a few rounds or maybe til the end of the encounter. They've removed the ability to turn monsters into Animal Companions. Heck, they've removed Animal Companions
Yes, but your fighters weren't creating clones of themselves or enchanting items or any number of other non-fightery things.
Yeah, I'm probably going to houserule for no use of scrolls by pc's without the Ritual Caster feat, or maybe just the arcane and/or divine power source for your class. But then I never did like that higher level Thieves/Rogues could read scrolls in 1e and 2e.
Back on topic. WotC said specifically they wanted to cut back on "travel spells" to make travel part of the adventure
Isn't this the same company who exhorted DM's to cut out all the niggling details like describing dwaren caverns, because that is not FUN, and get to the action? What's the point of forcing people to travel, when you don't want people to spend time describing what they see on thier travels? It seems WotC has become very schizophrenic... they contradict themselves constanly. That's why I'll stick with 2nd Ed.
Back on topic. WotC said specifically they wanted to cut back on "travel spells" to make travel part of the adventure
Isn't this the same company who exhorted DM's to cut out all the niggling details like describing dwaren caverns, because that is not FUN, and get to the action? What's the point of forcing people to travel, when you don't want people to spend time describing what they see on thier travels? It seems WotC has become very schizophrenic... they contradict themselves constanly. That's why I'll stick with 2nd Ed.
I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you mean TSR?
No, he's talking about the WotC 4e design blog I believe, which he is paraphrasing. Maybe it is still up, and in its original form even. That blog generated a lot of "discussion" prior to the rules being released.
Overall it sort of passed over traveling and other aspects of the game(like hunting down supplies in town) as being completely boring, and so not worth doting on. I see that as being very good advice for those completley new to the game(and RPGs in general), and that likely don't know enough of the game to make these types of things fun. But, for those who have played RPGs for a while, and that know how to make pretty much any sort of event fun, the blog drew some heavy criticism.
No, he's talking about the WotC 4e design blog I believe, which he is paraphrasing. Maybe it is still up, and in its original form even. That blog generated a lot of "discussion" prior to the rules being released.
Overall it sort of passed over traveling and other aspects of the game(like hunting down supplies in town) as being completely boring, and so not worth doting on. I see that as being very good advice for those completley new to the game(and RPGs in general), and that likely don't know enough of the game to make these types of things fun. But, for those who have played RPGs for a while, and that know how to make pretty much any sort of event fun, the blog drew some heavy criticism.
Hmm...
Well I can't say that I know anything about it. But I can say that person is either being taken out of context or had very little impact on the 4e DMG. The 4e DMG is the most ROLEplay oriented DMG ever produced. It's obvious that the design was influenced by the Campaign and Catacombs Sourcebook Guide from 2e which is the exact opposite of everything that blog supposedly entails. Also, the DMG outlines the rigors of travel and survival in harsh environments. The DMG does make suggestions based on group interests, like CaCSbG, but understanding group interests is just part of being a good DM, anti-story/detail or not.
There were a few things that were described as not being "fun", so more than a few people ran with that. It is important to keep in mind that the articles that talked about this stuff came out as much as 4 months before the actual rulebooks did, so they gave a very iffy first impression of what would, and would not, be covered in the rulebooks. This generated a lot of wariness and discussion. People ought to actually check out the rulebooks to see how things turned out though, as many fears turned out to be unfounded.
Last edited by Cebrion on Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:25 am; edited 1 time in total
The 4e DMG is the most ROLEplay oriented DMG ever produced.
Funny, I find the 4e DMG to be too gamey, what with its focus specifically upon designing encounters. As some examples, in designing a warband, the DM is encouraged to think in terms of having leaders, lurkers, soldiers, and brutes rather than encouraging the DM to think in terms of an enemy despot with a spy ring, housecarls, and conscripts. In designing encounter terrain, the DM is encouraged to think in terms of how the enemy lurker can be best positioned or the soldier can create a bottleneck rather than designing what would be a logical stronghold for the despot.
The 4e DMG is the most ROLEplay oriented DMG ever produced.
Funny, I find the 4e DMG to be too gamey, what with its focus specifically upon designing encounters. As some examples, in designing a warband, the DM is encouraged to think in terms of having leaders, lurkers, soldiers, and brutes rather than encouraging the DM to think in terms of an enemy despot with a spy ring, housecarls, and conscripts. In designing encounter terrain, the DM is encouraged to think in terms of how the enemy lurker can be best positioned or the soldier can create a bottleneck rather than designing what would be a logical stronghold for the despot.
One thing the 4E DMG puts me in the mind of, is that they make the assumption that anyone writing an adventure or a campaign already kows to do those things, and they only need help with encounter design, and matching XP and Treasure to PC expectation. I'm not entirely sure that's a safe assumption (obviously is with this group, but I've seen some horror stories). But then again, they did cover some of those very same issues in the Dummies Guide to 4E (forgot exactly what it was called), though only in the most general sense. Because the encounter and adventure design theory of 4E is so unique (in terms of previous editions), I guess the writers felt it was more important to focus on them than on story, trusting that new DMs would figure it out, and old DMs would already know, so why bother repeating it now. Especially when you take into account the DMG II for 3.5 is still so new, and is still a good DM's resource even if the rules have changed. In a year or two, absolutely (after all it IS under the previous rules).
I am coming to the realization (after looking through the grey hairs in my head Greyhawk=Greyhairs) that I am truly a grognard!
Its not the most awesome feeling for me as I am normally very open minded, but you can't mess with my D&D history or concepts. 4th did that for me too many times. I can accept it for a game that emulates D&D for another home brew style. (which I indeed tried and do own sadly copies of the 4th core books )
So my two copper pieces, and my outdated electrum pieces!! I am a happy cranky grognard!
Thanks for your post GVD!
Jim
(BTW I am 37 and started playing D&D in 81 so I was 10!)
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). Connecting Demons to Elemental Chaos more clearly defines their place in the universe. It also serves to abolish the needless symmetry that was so pervasive. Finally, I've seen nothing in the Demon Princes was changed, except that Yeenoghu was given a 2nd chance 
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