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Me Grognard. This Greyhawk.
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GVDammerung
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:54 am    Post subject: Me Grognard. This Greyhawk. Reply with quote

Or. "Don't push me, cause I'm close to the edge. I'm trying not to lose my head." Screw that last part! Mad

Link - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070924&authentic=true

I have never been one to prefer any version of Greyhawk to the absolutist exclusion of other versions. I have always looked forward, even if grumbling or cussing or attempting to escape something I did not care for in the past. Today, I can no longer do this. I never, and I mean never EVER, want to see Greyhawk published again, at least not until 5th Edition. I don't think I'm overreacting.

"Astral Sea?" "Elemental Tempest?" Tharizdun (and who knows what other GHisms) transformed into truly generic, "anyworld" or "every world" figures? The Great Wheel broken? Elementals as the origin of demons? Angels as the origin of devils? Mad

The basic assumptions of GH and D&D are being undermined. Demons as mindless "engines of destruction? So much for Grazzt, Iuz, Iggwilv, Zuggtomy, the Maures, Lolth, the drow as worshippers of Lolth etc. And there goes the Greyhawk Wars and FtA, as demons are just mindless brutes who "have no real organization and no singular aim." And there goes the Giant Series for the same reasons, Lolth (a demon at the time) is just a big, mindless spider, not a planner and manipulator. Mad

This cannot be retconned or handwaved away. GH has a HISTORY that makes assumptions contrary to these new paradigms. AND WE HAVE NOT YET SEEN THE FINAL PRODUCT. Mad

Greyhawk is DEAD and needs tpo stay DEAD. Mad

I am officially a grognard. Me Grognard. This Greyhawk. Mad Mad Mad
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: Me Grognard. This Greyhawk. EFF U WOTC. Reply with quote

DVD:
Maybe I haven't been around the internet long enough. Other than WOTC I honestly do not know what grognard means. If it is something you can say here please tell me, otherwise pm me. I realize your upset and understandably so, I didn't like the demon post either. So if you can pass this on I'd appreciate it.

I am officially a grognard. Me Grognard. This Greyhawk.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:43 am    Post subject: Re: Me Grognard. This Greyhawk. EFF U WOTC. Reply with quote

EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
DVD:
Maybe I haven't been around the internet long enough. Other than WOTC I honestly do not know what grognard, EFF U means. If it is something you can say here please tell me, otherwise pm me. I realize your upset and understandably so, I didn't like the demon post either. So if you can pass this on I'd appreciate it.


Grognard per Wiki

Grognard (Fr. "grumbler" from Fr. "grogner" 1. snarl 2. grunt 3. growl 4. grumble [râler] 5. gripe [râler] and Fr. "grognon" 1. grouch 2. curmudgeon

Embarassed Shocked Wink
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Pat_Payne
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Me Grognard. This Greyhawk. EFF U WOTC. Reply with quote

[quote="MichaelSandar"]
EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
DVD:
Maybe I haven't been around the internet long enough. Other than WOTC I honestly do not know what grognard, EFF U means. If it is something you can say here please tell me, otherwise pm me. I realize your upset and understandably so, I didn't like the demon post either. So if you can pass this on I'd appreciate it.


Grognard per Wiki

Grognard (Fr. "grumbler" from Fr. "grogner" 1. snarl 2. grunt 3. growl 4. grumble [râler] 5. gripe [râler] and Fr. "grognon" 1. grouch 2. curmudgeon
[quote]

Actually, it has more the connotation of "old guard" as this was one of the names given to Napoleon's troops -- it came to mean an "old-line" wargamer, particularly one who had been involved in wargaming for a long time, and from there (due to the wargaming roots) to RPGs.
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Vormaerin
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, it does mean an old veteran denotatively, but it has the connotation of a 'grumpy old man who doesn't like the new fangled things'. Because, as you know, old soldiers never think the noobs are up to the task.

And I really don't like the "let's change everything because we can" motif of WotC's creative developers. Its rather throwing out the baby with the bathwater, imho.

Just as a quibble, no one but serious GH folks thinks Lolth is a demoness. Her FR version as a full fledged goddess with her own realm and mini pantheon of subordinates is the official one. She just happens to live in the Abyss (and not even that, now, IIRC). So the drow are fine... or no better or worse than they were before.
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Ragr
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoaaah! What's going on here?

I logged off earlier in the day, after reading GVD's excellent, well thought out and sober plans for a CY576 sourcebook. 4 hours later, I log on and GVD's gone psycho. He's smashing down the doors of Wotc's ivory tower with an axe, leering through the portals' remains yelling "here's Johnny".

I hope anything sharp is safely locked away at casa GVD.

I'll admit to chuckling out loud at the rant/post, because it's this kind of passion, enthusiasm and sheer love of the setting that's going to get us all through the dispassionate, uncaring and, frankly, manipulative twaddle emanating from the aforementioned profit-mongers.

From the ashes, indeed.

Eileen, I didn't fully understand the term grognard either. I sure as hell do now, though.
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea, I picked up on it now as well. Thanks for the defination.

GVD, if your done smashing down doors can we get back to business?
Books don't write themselves you know.

The other question I have is this.....

You guys can if you so choose do anything you want with Greyhawk save but make money on it. If you really want to rewrite a Gazetteer then let's make some solid decisions, form a task team and start writing.

At the very least the authors of the effort will have something they will most certainly want to use and be proud of.

My Top Secret/S.I. accomplishments in my opinion would turn this game inside out with glee for most fans if I could offer it to them. We can offer ourselves Greyhawk...Nobody says we have to rely on WOTC for this.

It's home brew....in this case Canonfire brew. A shared home Gazetteer could really be something great. What do you say....?
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GVDammerung
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ragr wrote:
Whoaaah! What's going on here?

I logged off earlier in the day, after reading GVD's excellent, well thought out and sober plans for a CY576 sourcebook. 4 hours later, I log on and GVD's gone psycho. He's smashing down the doors of Wotc's ivory tower with an axe, leering through the portals' remains yelling "here's Johnny".

I hope anything sharp is safely locked away at casa GVD.

I'll admit to chuckling out loud at the rant/post, because it's this kind of passion, enthusiasm and sheer love of the setting that's going to get us all through the dispassionate, uncaring and, frankly, manipulative twaddle emanating from the aforementioned profit-mongers.

From the ashes, indeed.

Eileen, I didn't fully understand the term grognard either. I sure as hell do now, though.


My apologies for ranting. I just got . . . exercised. I'm calmer now but convinced to a fare-the-well that I am not the customer Wotc is looking for with 4e.
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GVDammerung
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
. . . You guys can if you so choose do anything you want with Greyhawk save but make money on it. If you really want to rewrite a Gazetteer then let's make some solid decisions, form a task team and start writing.

At the very least the authors of the effort will have something they will most certainly want to use and be proud of.

My Top Secret/S.I. accomplishments in my opinion would turn this game inside out with glee for most fans if I could offer it to them. We can offer ourselves Greyhawk...Nobody says we have to rely on WOTC for this.

It's home brew....in this case Canonfire brew. A shared home Gazetteer could really be something great. What do you say....?


Like you I have written a big sourcebook (300 or so pages on Keoland which I will eventually upload) for my own edification. It took a year and a half.

I have also seen the Gran March Project attempt a "shared-world" gazetteer of a single country. It is still underway and coordinating matters is sometimes hit or miss, depending on people's schedules etc.

I'm not saying "no" or that this isn't a good idea. I think your idea is a good one. Fan made GH is likely to be the only GH and miles truer to the setting than anything Wotc might do under 4e. However, I think one would want to be clear eyed about it at the same time. It wouldn't be done in a week or a month or by Christmas.

Once my blood pressure returns fully to normal, I'm up for discussing the possibilities. Either here or in a new thread in the main forum.
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pop a blood pressure pill and lets talk.

I know what your saying about time frames....As a single writer for Top Secret/S.I. I can't tell you how many times I have rewritten the Players Guide because I upgraded from a lousy typewriter to a word processer, and a world processer to a computer...then I found out how to use different features of the computer so I started writing again.

I don't expect anything soon. What I am pushing for is decisive thoughts in one area on canonfire with someone who knows Greyhawk the best or various areas the best and step up as core organizer. This person would rely on volunteers who would offer to write areas they are comfortable with and provide shorter rough drafts turned into the core design team to see if everyone is on the same page. The core design team is in charge of saving the information written and checking for the product to be accurate and linked together properly.

I would have a design team of 4-5 people you are most comfortable with and who's ideas are compatible as well as having the knowledge required of Greyhawk. Each person is responsible for managing a group of writers who work on individual smaller sections. Me.....I like random encounter tables and I'm currently working on an article of Dragons for Oerth Journal.

Once we get things lined up, one will get an idea of how long it could take to provide a cohesive text. Organization is the key. Most of us are adults and clearly there is a commitment involved here. People who can dedicate more time will write bigger sections, those with less time can write smaller sections.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know I am personally going to be emailing them on this. Specifically, while I have no issue with their alternate origins of the demons (and to a lesser degree, devils), I think their characterization of demons right now is wholly incorrect for pretty much ANY incarnation of DnD, with the possible exception of Ebberon. In fact for Ebberon I think its spot on. Demons as agents of chaos is not only wrong, its completely out of character. Demons are supposed to be chaotic incarnations of evil. Evil first, chaotic second. Granted, they deal more with ruling by force and action than by threats and treaties like the devils would, but they are capable of long term planning just like anything else. Now sticking to that planning is a different matter, and one in which the chaotic and awful aspects come to light. A demon's long term plan is going to be a framework at best. A devil's is going to be a detailed plan of action.

I dunno, time to go from work, more later.
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ratlord
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK Folks,
Keep in mind that this forum has a language filter to prevent vulgarity. Abbreviations and phoenetics used to bypass that filter, intentionally or not, are unacceptable.

Thanks for your cooperation.
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Gravenhurst
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Me Grognard. This Greyhawk. Reply with quote

GVDammerung wrote:
The basic assumptions of GH and D&D are being undermined. Demons as mindless "engines of destruction? So much for Grazzt, Iuz, Iggwilv, Zuggtomy, the Maures, Lolth, the drow as worshippers of Lolth etc. And there goes the Greyhawk Wars and FtA, as demons are just mindless brutes who "have no real organization and no singular aim." And there goes the Giant Series for the same reasons, Lolth (a demon at the time) is just a big, mindless spider, not a planner and manipulator.


I disagree with you friend. Why can' t everyone understand that chaotic evil is not just about being mindless. They are bent on destruction and this is what appeases them! They reap in the feeling of crushing someone with their bare hands, getting down and dirty with the blood of their enemies. When demons eat they eat with their hands and wear no bib, while devils are opposite, they use utensils and wear a bib! use one! Devils are into corrupting people to gain power thus souls to feed on or to create new devils. They like to control weaker beings to do as their bidding but plot against one another to achieve a higher rank. Chaotic evil is the strongest of the fittest, any means necessary, a means to a survival.

So Lolth can still be a Demoness because she satiates herself on the chaotic web spun by her servants. She can continue to grant rewards to her worshippers by turning them into driders! Like, does that make sense? No! But it does to her because spiders are her game, man. And you gotta be like her to understand her. I would keep Lolth as a spider demon that uses her feminine elven form as a change self spell, or whatever, because she really isn't humanoid anymore, she's an arachnoid now! And don't forget she is a goddess so if she chooses in becoming a devil lady, all the power to her. It makes sense the drow now follow a caste system on attaining rank fairly instead of killing everybody to get to the top, as was before.

And, maybe Grazzt really is a devil lord, incognito for the master plan of all plans, to betray the demon princes? He is the master of subterfuge, after all. Heck Grazzt IS Lolth and her Lolth persona is an avatar of demonism from her foothold of the Demonweb Pits which really is a staging ground for devils to infiltrate the demons Abyss! You know what, this sounds so good I am going to use this for my self!

You can make anything work for ya! Cheers!
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're missing the point. We don't want to "make it work". It already works. Why should we have to rewrite whatever they come up with when they shouldn't have mucked with it in the first place?
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got to agree with bubba. I've swung firmly back into the "not bothering with 4e" camp having read the excerpts from the 3 books. I was willing to give it a chance but, as bubba states, too many unnecessary changes. Tieflings, no thanks. Dragonborn, leave me alone. Points of light, yawn.

3.5 and Pathfinder here I come.
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Gravenhurst
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:25 am    Post subject: Conversion is easy, but sucks too! Reply with quote

bubbagump wrote:
I think you're missing the point. We don't want to "make it work". It already works. Why should we have to rewrite whatever they come up with when they shouldn't have mucked with it in the first place?


I get the point for those gamers who rely on printed 3.5E material to drive their campaign story line are miffed on having things changed so drastically – in the rules, that is - that they feel they have to convert to 4th E to carry on! And, I understand the angst formed from knowing the changes in rules to reconvert 4th E to 3.5E is an undertaking, which isn’t worth it to “make it work.” I myself got fed up of trying to adapt some of the 3.0E rules in my 2ndE campaign (confusion developed), that I had to decide to completely crossover to 3.0E or just stick with 2ndE. 3.0E sold it for me but I miss 2ndE because its style of game play worked for me.

I disagreed on that angst because I feel there isn’t much of a change with demons and devils. Nothing that I haven’t done myself in my own games and nothing I couldn’t fix to fit in with my own rules too. I gave possible scenarios in my post showing how easy it is to “make it work.” That is all. But, yeah, for wanting things to stay the same it is a pain in the arse to do any kind of revision, especially when the system works the way it is for you. Having to go back to older material and rethink stuff is tedious, that’s for sure!


Last edited by Gravenhurst on Thu May 08, 2008 6:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Vormaerin
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The change is rather more extreme than you seem to think. Demon lords like Graz'zt and Malcanthet require massive rewriting, because their "shtick" is now only for devils. Frankly, most of the work that has gone into Planewalker.com and the Demonomicon of Iggwilv articles is so much toast now.

The extremely limited options for mages in 4e are a pretty substantial nuisance for Greyhawk fans since few of the iconic wizards there are blast'em up types. The lack of druids and bard is a nuisance, with those two classes being more important in Greyhawk than any other published campaign world.
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No revision is necessary. Behavior is roleplaying oriented, not rules oriented. Keep your demons and devils behaving as you want them too. Use the rules for being on the planes if you play using the 4e rules, and just use the organization of the planes that you like, if you prefer the planar wheel or not. No revision is neccessary, just what rules you reference when those planes come into play. So, there are no problems at all even if you do play 4e but want to use the old organization of things.

And demons are not the types who prefer to eat with their hands and no bib any more than devils are. Graz'zt surely plays the sophisticate, as does Iuz even though he is known for his unpredictable rages. Devils are known for their savage barbarity too. Some demons and devils are more bestial in form, some are not. If you can't hold eating utensils then yes, you will eat with your hands and make a mess of things. Many lower planar critters fit that bill, and not just demons.
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vormaerin wrote:
The change is rather more extreme than you seem to think. Demon lords like Graz'zt and Malcanthet require massive rewriting, because their "shtick" is now only for devils. Frankly, most of the work that has gone into Planewalker.com and the Demonomicon of Iggwilv articles is so much toast now.

The extremely limited options for mages in 4e are a pretty substantial nuisance for Greyhawk fans since few of the iconic wizards there are blast'em up types. The lack of druids and bard is a nuisance, with those two classes being more important in Greyhawk than any other published campaign world.


I side with Cebrion on this. As I have suggested to all the 4thE haters/debaters out there (I am too, as a buyer, maybe as a DM, but not as a player), if you decide on switching over to 4thE just keep your own history, story and past canon going, but play with the new rules, per se. So even though 3.5E demons become devils they don't have to cross over if you don't want them too. How about changing back the demons that have crossed over to devils by changing back their name title and alignment? Maybe stats will be the same as the devil but in role-playing no one will know the difference. See, little change, not a re-haul at all. I am sure more options will develop out of the 4thE to help with changing back the demon to its roots with little work. But we are arguing about a new set of rules without even playing them yet. "Moot is the root until the root is uncovered" is what I say.

But I do have to clarify my points on my demon references. I have been referring to the 3.5E demons staying as they are in theme with their roots with suggestions on story development. I have been in no way including the 4thE primordial-bred elemental demon as the base of my suggestions on carrying the mantle for the original demon. Sorry for the confusion. On that note, I side with Vormaerin on 4thE demons being “more extreme” requiring “massive rewriting” in wanting the originating idea of what a demon is/was, to quote him. I agree the new demon caste is one whopping change, but it doesn’t change my view on creating options with little tweaking for the original demon in 4thE. How about instead of changing the converted devon (a.k.a. devil-demon) or demoil (a.k.a. demon-devil, I like this one) back to its original status change the new elemental demons instead? The newer elemons (a.k.a. elemental-demons) or dementals (a.k.a. demon-elementals, I like this moniker) will have an elemental sub-type. Alas, it all involves having to actually create more change in 4thE than you wish you wouldn’t have too, eh! I for one am not keen on the new demon race being elemental and being called demons in the first place, but doing away with the original demons isn’t so bad an idea to me anyways.
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to hold off on making a judgement on 4e w.r.t. Greyhawk, but from everything I have seen these rules would change the way Greyhawk runs. I am to the point now with three editions, not including other systems like Castles and Crusades and Pathfinder, why go to a system that strays from the fundamentals of Greyhawk.

I have been gaming since 1981, so perhaps I am not being fluid enough in my thinking to allow for a new system. Are there any new gamers, say who just started gaming within the last three years, who have a different opinion of what 4e offers that other systems do not?
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:29 pm    Post subject: Demons no more, yay! Reply with quote

Quote:
And demons are not the types who prefer to eat with their hands and no bib any more than devils are. Graz'zt surely plays the sophisticate, as does Iuz even though he is known for his unpredictable rages. Devils are known for their savage barbarity too. Some demons and devils are more bestial in form, some are not. If you can't hold eating utensils then yes, you will eat with your hands and make a mess of things. Many lower planar critters fit that bill, and not just demons.


I have always categorized demons as being more bestial and devils more sophisticated as the latter are related to humans, while the former are related to confusion and randomness. It has helped me to differentiate them this way from devils, more so for the players to believe that there are differences. I can see how chaos can be shown as being normal like. An example would be of a lawful kid with a messy room trying to find something and always does but she'd still be lawful. And a chaotic kid with a clean and orderly room but her picture frames are all tilted and objects are placed backwards is still chaotic, as an example. And to the outside viewer both rooms would pose an opposite response in what one is viewing: the lawful kid would be construed as a messy and chaotic person, while the chaotic kid would be referred to as being neat and befuddled but lawful in the placements of her belongings. Does it make sense, no, can it work, yes.

So in regards to Grazz’t as a Demon Prince posing as a sophisticated creature that eats with utensils and doesn’t need to wear a bib is quite odd to me considering the grand scheme of things of the meaning of chaos. I understand that Grazz’t has been published as normal except for his 6 fingers, making it a hard time for people in seeing Grazz’t for what he truly is, a devil - A being of lawful tendencies. Not one of chaos! Wink

So tear off that bib on demons and guide their claws baby, 'cuz chaos is gonna slurp that soup up, and wear the bowl on their head, oh yeah! Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Demons no more, yay! Reply with quote

Gravenhurst wrote:
So in regards to Grazz’t as a Demon Prince posing as a sophisticated creature that eats with utensils and doesn’t need to wear a bib is quite odd to me considering the grand scheme of things of the meaning of chaos. I understand that Grazz’t has been published as normal except for his 6 fingers, making it a hard time for people in seeing Grazz’t for what he truly is, a devil - A being of lawful tendencies. Not one of chaos! Wink


Grazz't's schtick has always been that he is too "human" to be a demon. It always made me think there was more to his story than the typical demon lord. The ramping up of demonic beastiality in 4e seems like it would further accentuate Grazz't's schtick. I see no problem with keeping him as is.
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cebrion wrote:
No revision is necessary.


No offense, but "Duh". However, what does that have to do with anything? I don't even need to use the MM.. I hardly do at all as it is. But if I am interested in using 4e, then everything published related to demons is going to be substantially in conflict with past material.

Do you really think that when they publish the GH Campaign Sourcebook and GH Player's Guide that they are going to have the original demon/devil schema in place again? I don't. Do you think its going to cause confusion in general discussion in say a year or two when new threads about demons/devils/cosmology start up? I do.

Frankly, its getting almost pointless to even talk about 4e (especially on other sites) because any time you do, someone comes along and says "Just write your own rules/fluff/whatever" if you have a quibble with something. Why are we pretending to talk about 4e if the answer to every question is "house rule it"? I can run Greyhawk with Runequest or Ars Magica rules, too. But its kind of off topic....

I don't use the Great Wheel and I have a lot of custom work into my GH cosmology, gods, etc. It works for me and will continue to do so regardless of what rules, D&D or otherwise, I use. But its not really germaine to a typical canonfire conversation, particularly one in a system specific forum.

WotC is quite deliberately trashing the existing demon lore. If we ever see a 4e Malcanthet, the story side will be substantially different. Obviously, you don't have to go along with it or any other lore changes. But the new lore is going to frame conversations going forward.
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bigmac
Journeyman Greytalker


Joined: Jan 27, 2007
Posts: 80
Location: London UK

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: Me Grognard. This Greyhawk. Reply with quote

GVDammerung wrote:
I never, and I mean never EVER, want to see Greyhawk published again, at least not until 5th Edition.


I'm a Spelljammer fan, so need D&D to give me a great Greyhawk, a great Forgotten Realms and a great Dragonlance. It looks to me that Forgotten Realms is going to be unrecognisable and Greyhawk (and Dragonlance) is going to either be missing, chopped up or mucked about with to the point of being a different planet.

I've heard some great things about 4th edition "crunch", but everything I hear about the 4e "fluff" makes my skin crawl.

One of the things that I find most frustrating, is that we are told that we need a new D&D, but there is so much that is still missing from 3rd edition. There are hundreds of monsters that haven't been converted to 3rd edition yet. There is no GHCS yet. There is no Monsters of Greyhawk yet. There is no Races of Greyhawk yet. I could go on. And on. And on. And that is just the GH stuff.

4th edition is getting me to buy a bunch of new RPG books, but it isn't the new ones. I've decided to bite the bullet and buy a bunch of FRCS books that I was holding out on. I'm buying most of the MWP line of DLCS books. And I'm going to buy the best of the generic 3rd edition books.

I'll be looking for the fan community to supply me with the parts of 3rd edition that are missing from the equasion. I hope that Canonfire! can supply me with a PDF for each Living Greyhawk metaregion. I hope that the Greytalkers are not all going to switch to 4e rules and make new fluff to bridge the gap between the poor quality 4e fluff and Greyhawk. I hope that other people are going to stick with 3rd edition (or make edition neutral things that I can use).

Maybe when (and if) 5th edition comes out, WotC (or whoever buys D&D) will return to the roots and make something that wouldn't have Gary Gygax turning in his grave. If that happens, I'll look at it. I'll be very suspicious of anything that has the D&D brand name, but I'll give 5th edition a fair hearing. But at the moment I can't see anything that is going to make me want to play 4th edition D&D.

I didn't realise that I was a "grognard". But it seems that I am a grognard.

But I don't want to sit in a 4th edition forum ranting away and annoying any 4e fans who want to convert 4e D&D to Greyhawk. I think anyone who wants to do that has a right to do it. (And lets face it a fan conversion like that is going to be the only sort of thing that could possibly tempt me to play 4e.)

So I hope that any other grognards are going to go back to the 3rd edition forums (or the earlier edition forums) and do something positive (instead of moan about WotC). (If I wanted to see people moaning about WotC, I could just go over to their forum! Laughing )

(I'm going to try to do some stuff for 3rd edition D&D. I'm not sure what I can do at the moment, but I'll see what I am best at and do that.)

Thank you for your time.

David 'Big Mac' Shepheard
Apprentice Grognard
My Greyhawk links
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EileenProphetofIstus
Master Greytalker


Joined: Jun 28, 2007
Posts: 725
Location: Montevideo, Minnesota, US

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Mac, a great place to start would be the Oerth Journal. Maybe you already use it, I don't know. Fear not, there will be a lot of 3.5 around!

Best wishes! Happy

http://www.oerthjournal.com/oerthjournals.html
_________________
Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods


Last edited by EileenProphetofIstus on Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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