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Me Grognard. This Greyhawk.
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Cebrion
Black Hand of Oblivion
Black Hand of Oblivion


Joined: Feb 16, 2003
Posts: 3721
Location: So. Cal

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, he's talking about the WotC 4e design blog I believe, which he is paraphrasing. Maybe it is still up, and in its original form even. That blog generated a lot of "discussion" prior to the rules being released.

Overall it sort of passed over traveling and other aspects of the game(like hunting down supplies in town) as being completely boring, and so not worth doting on. I see that as being very good advice for those completley new to the game(and RPGs in general), and that likely don't know enough of the game to make these types of things fun. But, for those who have played RPGs for a while, and that know how to make pretty much any sort of event fun, the blog drew some heavy criticism.
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AtomicPope
Journeyman Greytalker


Joined: Jan 01, 2005
Posts: 53
Location: Sacramento, CA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cebrion wrote:
No, he's talking about the WotC 4e design blog I believe, which he is paraphrasing. Maybe it is still up, and in its original form even. That blog generated a lot of "discussion" prior to the rules being released.

Overall it sort of passed over traveling and other aspects of the game(like hunting down supplies in town) as being completely boring, and so not worth doting on. I see that as being very good advice for those completley new to the game(and RPGs in general), and that likely don't know enough of the game to make these types of things fun. But, for those who have played RPGs for a while, and that know how to make pretty much any sort of event fun, the blog drew some heavy criticism.

Hmm...

Well I can't say that I know anything about it. But I can say that person is either being taken out of context or had very little impact on the 4e DMG. The 4e DMG is the most ROLEplay oriented DMG ever produced. It's obvious that the design was influenced by the Campaign and Catacombs Sourcebook Guide from 2e which is the exact opposite of everything that blog supposedly entails. Also, the DMG outlines the rigors of travel and survival in harsh environments. The DMG does make suggestions based on group interests, like CaCSbG, but understanding group interests is just part of being a good DM, anti-story/detail or not.
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Cebrion
Black Hand of Oblivion
Black Hand of Oblivion


Joined: Feb 16, 2003
Posts: 3721
Location: So. Cal

PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were a few things that were described as not being "fun", so more than a few people ran with that. It is important to keep in mind that the articles that talked about this stuff came out as much as 4 months before the actual rulebooks did, so they gave a very iffy first impression of what would, and would not, be covered in the rulebooks. This generated a lot of wariness and discussion. People ought to actually check out the rulebooks to see how things turned out though, as many fears turned out to be unfounded.

Last edited by Cebrion on Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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OleOneEye
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Joined: Sep 20, 2005
Posts: 158
Location: Little Rock, Arkansas

PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AtomicPope wrote:
The 4e DMG is the most ROLEplay oriented DMG ever produced.

Funny, I find the 4e DMG to be too gamey, what with its focus specifically upon designing encounters. As some examples, in designing a warband, the DM is encouraged to think in terms of having leaders, lurkers, soldiers, and brutes rather than encouraging the DM to think in terms of an enemy despot with a spy ring, housecarls, and conscripts. In designing encounter terrain, the DM is encouraged to think in terms of how the enemy lurker can be best positioned or the soldier can create a bottleneck rather than designing what would be a logical stronghold for the despot.
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MikelAmroni
Journeyman Greytalker


Joined: Nov 14, 2005
Posts: 221

PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OleOneEye wrote:
AtomicPope wrote:
The 4e DMG is the most ROLEplay oriented DMG ever produced.

Funny, I find the 4e DMG to be too gamey, what with its focus specifically upon designing encounters. As some examples, in designing a warband, the DM is encouraged to think in terms of having leaders, lurkers, soldiers, and brutes rather than encouraging the DM to think in terms of an enemy despot with a spy ring, housecarls, and conscripts. In designing encounter terrain, the DM is encouraged to think in terms of how the enemy lurker can be best positioned or the soldier can create a bottleneck rather than designing what would be a logical stronghold for the despot.


One thing the 4E DMG puts me in the mind of, is that they make the assumption that anyone writing an adventure or a campaign already kows to do those things, and they only need help with encounter design, and matching XP and Treasure to PC expectation. I'm not entirely sure that's a safe assumption (obviously is with this group, but I've seen some horror stories). But then again, they did cover some of those very same issues in the Dummies Guide to 4E (forgot exactly what it was called), though only in the most general sense. Because the encounter and adventure design theory of 4E is so unique (in terms of previous editions), I guess the writers felt it was more important to focus on them than on story, trusting that new DMs would figure it out, and old DMs would already know, so why bother repeating it now. Especially when you take into account the DMG II for 3.5 is still so new, and is still a good DM's resource even if the rules have changed. In a year or two, absolutely (after all it IS under the previous rules).

But what do I know? Wink
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Soft-Paws
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Joined: Mar 05, 2008
Posts: 75
Location: Long Beach, California USA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked

I am coming to the realization (after looking through the grey hairs in my head Greyhawk=Greyhairs) that I am truly a grognard! Wink

Its not the most awesome feeling for me as I am normally very open minded, but you can't mess with my D&D history or concepts. 4th did that for me too many times. I can accept it for a game that emulates D&D for another home brew style. (which I indeed tried and do own sadly copies of the 4th core books Embarassed )

So my two copper pieces, and my outdated electrum pieces!! I am a happy cranky grognard!

Thanks for your post GVD!

Jim

(BTW I am 37 and started playing D&D in 81 so I was 10!)

Wink
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