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Paizo and 4e - The Revolution Will Be Published

 
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GVDammerung
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:58 pm    Post subject: Paizo and 4e - The Revolution Will Be Published Reply with quote

On Paizo's boards, Eric Mona has imagined a possible sequence of events wherein Paizo might not immediately switch over to the 4e rules, if those rules could not be provided to Paizo in a manner sufficiently timely to accommodate the production of the third Pathfinder adventure path. In the same thread, he mused about perhaps even producing a Paizo “3.75 edition” set of rules if such a hypothetical third Pathfinder adventure path were well enough received. I would like to suggest that Paizo do just this.

While the OGL gives Paizo the opportunity to create a 3.75 set of rules, it is doubtless safer and easier for Paizo to adopt the forthcoming 4e rules and continue to support D&D as published by Wotc. However, 4e has not met with universal acclaim and, in part, this is because it is significantly departing from prior editions in terms of both the rules and the flavor of the game. Are there enough D&D gamers sufficiently disgruntled with the impending 4e to make a 3.75 rules set from Paizo and a line of conforming products commercially viable? That’s the open question. If there were a sufficient number of such gamers, Paizo could find its business greatly increased.

It is my opinion, that Paizo is in just the right position at just the right time to do the heretofore unthinkable – goes heads up with D&D as published by Wotc with a competing version of D&D. Paizo would not need to “win” or “beat” Wotc to be successful. If Paizo saw its business increase by say 30%, I think they might well break even. Anything more than a 30% increase would be gravy. And, of course, the goal should be more like at least a 50% increase in their business. Can this be reasonably possible in anything but a pipe dream? I think so.

The keys to Paizo launching its own 3.75 edition of D&D are four. Two are must haves and two are highly desirable.

First, how fast can Paizo get a 3.75 rules set to market? 4e launches in May 2009. Paizo would, I think, need to be to market no later than August 2009 – Gencon or bust. There are three ways they might be able to do this. One – perhaps the Paizo staff has sufficiently house-ruled 3x in their own games to have a basis for seeing a 3.75 edition with a little more elbow grease. Two - perhaps Paizo can bring on board some folks who can do the heavy lifting for them. Paizo has certainly worked with a number of heavy weight D&D folks. I’ll come back to this.

Second, will Necromancer Games support a 3.75 rules set from Paizo. Necromancer Games is already partnered with Paizo. This would take it one – big – step further. Paizo has a sterling reputation and so does Necromancer. Both have established themselves as “brand names” with devoted customers. Necomancer’s support would combine two great tastes to taste greater together.

The above are the MUST HAVES. Now, for the highly desirables.

Third, if Paizo and Necromancer can agree to link up for a 3.75 edition with Paizo and Necromancer product support, can they convince Goodman Games to join the party? Goodman Games has easily as strong a reputation as Paizo and Necromancer. If Goodman Games joined with Paizo and Necromancer games, there would be a critical mass of well respected muscle behind the 3.75 edition and a virtual guarantee of top notch support. While Paizo and Necromancer could likely go it alone, adding Goodman Games to the mix would put the venture over the top. Customers would be there.

Fourth, can Monte Cook be persuaded to lend his name and his knack for the 3x rules to a 3.75 edition? Monte Cook has a reputation every bit as formidable and positive as Paizo, Necromancer Games and Goodman Games. He could also significantly speed along the development of the 3.75 rules to meet an August 2009 release date. While Monte Cook has said goodbye to game developing, a 3.75 rules set, particularly partnered with Paizo and Necromancer Games, and perhaps Goodman Games as well, might be the sort of thing to see him come out of “retirement” for one more go around. That he knows Eric Mona and is on friendly terms with him can only help.

These are the HIGHLY DESIRABLES.

With only the “must haves,” a Paizo lead 3.75 rules set would be a player, certain to give Wotc a run for its money and very likely to be “successful” at least from Paizo’s position. With both highly desirables, a Paizo 3.75 would be a certain hit and very likely to see 4e from Wotc breathing very hard indeed. Again, Paizo “wins” and so do its partners if they see their business increase by 30% plus.

Either way, Paizo is IMO in the catbirds seat. I doubt this opportunity will ever again present itself. Carpe diem! Or play it say and support Wotc’s 4e for sure dollars.

I would say - launch the Paizo Revolution! Market 3.75 on its merits but also as the “outsider” resisting the “abandonment” of D&D by 4e. Vive la Revolution! Vive la Paizo!
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Terjon
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Much as I would love to see Paizo and friends pick up the banner and sally forth into battle against 4E, it ain't gonna happen. The simple reality is that, unless WotC makes it impossible for Paizo to do what it's doing under 4E -- either because the rules affect the flavor too much or the OGL/D20 STL is too restrictive -- I simply cannot imagine a circumstance under which they wouldn't go ahead and convert to 4E. That's their stated preference. Any alternatives are simply spit-balling worst case scenarios in response to hypothetical questions they hope never come to pass.

I'm not happy about 4E either, but it's coming and there's nothing we can do to stop it. It will be what it is, regardless of our feelings about it. And Paizo, like any third party publisher who hopes to prosper in the 4E era, will tie itself to the new edition as closely as they can under whatever terms the new OGL/D20 STL allows.

I wish it were otherwise, but it's not.
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Saracenus
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to see Paizo's current thinking... here is the thread Erik started on the Paizo boards...

http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/p/paizoPublishingLLC/gameMastery/pathfinder/messageboards/community/gaming/4thEdition/40PAIZOISSTILLUNDECIDED

In Service,

Bryan Blumklotz
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Ragr
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link, Bryan. Very, very interesting.

So far I've strongly disliked all of the Wotc 4e information relating to game background and general fluff (which, of course, the vast majority of info has concerned). The one bit of rules stuff, saving throws and a stat block, I did'nt mind at all.

However, if Paizo did get the support of gamers, and did press ahead with a 3.75 then they can consider me a customer and Wotc can kiss my cash goodbye.

I'm really quite enthused by Erik's comments.
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cperkins
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ragr wrote:
Thanks for the link, Bryan. Very, very interesting.

So far I've strongly disliked all of the Wotc 4e information relating to game background and general fluff (which, of course, the vast majority of info has concerned). The one bit of rules stuff, saving throws and a stat block, I did'nt mind at all.

However, if Paizo did get the support of gamers, and did press ahead with a 3.75 then they can consider me a customer and Wotc can kiss my cash goodbye.

I'm really quite enthused by Erik's comments.

This goes for me as well. Sadly, I don't think Paizo will take such a risk because many players will, over the span of a year or two, switch to 4th edition.

Based on what I'm reading, and what WotC has done to Greyhawk, I won't be supporting them any longer.
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Robbastard
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thoughts, GVD. Let me add something else to this scenario/wish list: just imagine if 4E, though successful, isn't quite as profitable as Hasbro wanted it to be (partially due to competion from the Dread Quadumvirate mentioned above), so Hasbro starts looking to get out of the RPG business (though still hanging onto their CCG biz). Wouldn't it be great if Paizo, with the aid of some investors, were able, sometime in the future, to purchase the rights to D&D? It's be like that time when Jim Shooter tried to buy Marvel Comics, only better (because Shooter failed)!
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vonbek
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I know my current group are not willing to switch again. We have talked among ourselves of just sticking to the 3.5 or even going back to 2nd edition. Support from someone for those of us who like the rules the way they are would be good news for us.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WotC has really painted Paizo into a corner with this. I hope Paizo does go ahead with their own Pathfinder 3.75 core books. So long as they keep making good products that are relevant to me, I will keep on buying them.
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bigmac
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:05 pm    Post subject: It's actually happened! Reply with quote

Paizo has gone ahead with their 3.75 rules! See this page for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Alpha Release:
http://paizo.com/store/games/roleplayingGames/p/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy8253

The Alpha Release is an open playtesting release and is free to download. After this one, there is going to be a Beta Release. That will also be a free download, but will also be available as a printed document. The final product will be out after 4th edition.

Enjoy!
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Ragr
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to confess that my views on 4e have swung this way and that since it was announced. Initially I didn't want anything to do with it, mainly because I found the fluff Wotc were releasing to be pretty poor. Then they released some crunch and, as I expected, it wasn't bad; some of the ideas I could use even if I didn't fully convert. So my game was going to become a hybrid.
Then, Paizo makes their very welcome announcement; I download the rules and now I have a real choice. I will still buy 4e, compare it with Pathfinder, and use the bits I like best.

Well, that's all changed. AGAIN! Just yesterday I had some spare time and wandered over to the Wizards' site. I had a good look at the excerpts from the 4e PHB, DMG and MM. And? Disliked everything I read. So much so that I don't really think I'll even bother picking up 4e at all. It's not the same game. We were told that, so Wotc can't be accused of deception. But, the thing is, it's not even close. I saw no spirit of D&D, no soul of D&D. And no feel. Reading through the excerpts was like reading the Runequest or C&S rules for the first time. They weren't D&D. The trouble is, neither is this. And yet it proudly displays it's heritage front and centre. You know, I hope it succeeds, and I bear it no ill will. There may even be a last minute change of opinion from me when the books are released, but I don't think so.

I'm 99% certain that Pathfinder is the way forward for my Greyhawk. I'm really looking forward to getting all the speculation and disruption over with and gaming again. And whenever people ask what game I run I'll just say Greyhawk. Paizo will get my custom and a big thank you and goodnight to D&D.
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Robbastard
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Paizo and 4e - The Revolution Will Be Published Reply with quote

GVDammerung wrote:

Fourth, can Monte Cook be persuaded to lend his name and his knack for the 3x rules to a 3.75 edition? Monte Cook has a reputation every bit as formidable and positive as Paizo, Necromancer Games and Goodman Games. He could also significantly speed along the development of the 3.75 rules to meet an August 2009 release date. While Monte Cook has said goodbye to game developing, a 3.75 rules set, particularly partnered with Paizo and Necromancer Games, and perhaps Goodman Games as well, might be the sort of thing to see him come out of “retirement” for one more go around. That he knows Eric Mona and is on friendly terms with him can only help.


Looks like he has, GVD, as of yesterday:

Quote:

Monte Cook Joins the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game™ Team
Co-creator of 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons® to act as Rules Consultant

Paizo Publishing®, LLC today announced that Monte Cook, the co-creator of 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons and author of the 3.5 PHB and DMG as well as the Ptolus™ campaign setting and the recent Book of Experimental Might™, has joined the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game team as a Rules Consultant.

"This is going to be a lot of fun," said Monte Cook. "Pathfinder is a fresh spin on a rules system that I love and the guys at Paizo are great to work with. They produce nothing but the highest quality products."

"Monte Cook is a legend of third edition and of the Open Gaming movement," said Paizo's Publisher, Erik Mona. "He's also a great DM, and has the best mind for mechanics I've ever seen. To have one of the original third edition designers helping us with the Pathfinder RPG is like a dream come true. With Monte's involvement, I am certain that the future of the edition he helped to create will be very long and very fruitful."

"I am really excited to be working with Monte on this project," said Paizo's Lead Designer, Jason Bulmahn. "His advice has been a great help to the Pathfinder RPG. When it comes to rules design and knowledge of the 3.5 system, there is absolutely no one better."

Monte Cook will also be contributing an introduction to the final Pathfinder Roleplaying Game hardcover, scheduled for an August 2009 release.
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Ragr
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before, I was Smile .

Now, I'm Happy .
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blakeryan
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gooday

I have a copy of the Pathfinder RPG beta, excellent book.

The way they have done Sorcerers is simply brilliant.

I'm happy to run or play in Greyhawk under 4th or 3rd edition D&D, but i'd choose Pathfinder over both if the other supplements are as good as the Pathfinder PHB.

I grabbed 3 of the Second Darkness adventure path adventures, again of excellent quality.

Already told all my gaming friends to check out the paizo site, since most of them have all the Complete 3.5 books they are keen to retain their use.

I can see good things for Paizo if both Monte and Eric are at the helm.

Lots of good flavour and customisation by campaign options in the Pathfinder book, all of which slots into Greyhawk nicely.

Only thing I didn't like about it was the removal of Mordekainen and Tensers names from the spells, but I guess there were copyright issues.
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