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Pelor...God of Agriculture?, Bahamut...typical human deity
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:37 am    Post subject: Pelor...God of Agriculture?, Bahamut...typical human deity Reply with quote

Another WOTC article, this particular one comes from Dungeon and is written by James Wyatt. In it he describes how to start a campaign for 4th edition, with the idea of starting small and working outward. I posted part of it here because I thought that his take on Greyhawk deities was interesting to say the least. Eariler in the article he states that the village is mostly human (but not all). So here it is....

Quote:
Heart of the Village
I don't really need a map of Greenbrier -- the simple idea of a village grown up around a crossroads will do fine for now. A wooden palisade stands around the center of town, offering feeble protection against the encroaching wild.

There's a common house in the middle of town -- it serves as the classic D&D tavern, sure, but it's also where the villagers gather for meetings to handle the sorts of things a town council would handle in a larger settlement.

The temple is the other main gathering place, where people come together to celebrate and mourn the many passages of life. I'll need to give some thought to the temple and the religious life of the village.

Turning to another chapter in the Player's Handbook, I run down the list of gods. I don't get very far before Bahamut's portfolio jumps out at me: He's the god of justice, protection, and honor. These people fear the encroaching darkness, so it seems natural to me that they would pray to Bahamut for protection. I'll say that Bahamut's altar occupies center stage, as it were, in the temple.

That needn't be the end of it, though. In any polytheistic religion, people offer prayers and make sacrifices to different gods for different occasions. As the sun god, Pelor is an important god of agriculture. He'll get a shrine in one wing of the temple. In better days, he was more important than Bahamut in Greenbrier. In fact, there might still be townsfolk who resent the priests of Bahamut for usurping Pelor's place in the center of the temple.

And all this time I though Bahamut was a dragon deity and Pelor was the god of the sun, light, strength, and healing.....boy is my campaign screwed up, I guess I have been doing it wrong all this time. Bummer! Well at least Pelor is stated as still being a god of the sun. The rest of it...well I don't know.
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Cebrion
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are doing things just fine. This is just one person's interpretation of things.

I've always seen Pelor as having a minor agricultural significance as well, but that is not much of a leap. I also see Pelor as a virile god of Strength, who is achampion of light a well, and foe of darkness and the undead(as the sun is inimical to both of those things). Bahamut is a dragon deity, though a very small percentage of non-dragons worhsip him as well. I don't see any reason for this to alter what you want to do, or altering what anybody else would want to do.
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see the relation from sun god to agriculture especially when you remove a lot of other gods, not a stretch of the imagination. I thought it was odd that the article made no reference to Bahamut being a dragon god. The other thing that struck me as odd was that the temple in the article was of Bahamut but Pelor, Moradin and Kord all had worship locations in it as well. This puts four seemingly unrelated gods in one temple. It also stated that before Bahamut came along that Pelor was the main god, so now there is some animostity between the clerics. Four gods, four sets of clerics, two types which don't get along very well according to the campaign the auther was putting together, all in one temple. Seemed odd to me.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, I get the distinct feeling that part of the brief for these article writers is to see how much they can irritate old time players. This one is just another "emperor's new clothes" bunch of fluff.

Granted, in a divergant campaign setting Bahamut could be worshipped by ordinary villagers but, as a core concept, it's unlikely. It was Wotc who decided that Greyhawk was no longer the core setting and that Living Greyhawk should end, but there seems to be no problem with continuing to use GH specific deities in 4e. What's the matter guys, not imaginative enough to come up with a new pantheon?

I've said it before in another thread, if Wotc concentrate on rules and mechanics then I'm sure they will come up with some usable products but their background fluff for 4e just gets poorer with each bulletin.

Wotc's policy on campaign flavour seems to be "if it ain't broke, knock it down and rebuild anyway, because we can".

I'm sorry, but I find it impossible to even think about this kind of drivel in a constructive way.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bahamut's an odd choice... I wonder if he's hinting at something in the future of his campaign (those dastardly and cunning dragons!). I hope he didn't just thumb through the domains, looking for the right ones... I thought only munchkins did that.

But Pelor as an agricultural deity sounds about right; the sun had a very prominent place in most pre-Christian faiths (if I'm remembering my college classes correctly).

The conflict between a naturalistic deity and a legalistic deity would be fertile ground for plot hooks, IMHO. Especially if the latter is imposed from one's rulers...
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is why, from Digital Dragon:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071029&authentic=true
You will need a login. For those who refuse to login, here it is:

Dragon: Design & Development wrote:
The family of gods for 4th Edition is a mix of old and new. You'll see familiar faces like Corellon, Moradin, and Pelor, and some new faces as well, like Zehir, Torog, and Bane.

Yes, Bane.

Before I explain what the Forgotten Realms' god of tyranny and war is doing rubbing shoulders with Pelor, let me say a bit about our thinking when we created a pantheon in the first place.

There was a time when the team working on "the world" of D&D thought we could get away with creating general rules useful to clerics regardless of which pantheon existed in the campaign, and then presenting a variety of fictional and historical pantheons for DMs to adopt or adapt as they saw fit. I believe it was Stacy Longstreet, the senior D&D art director, who pointed out that this solution would leave us in a bit of a bind.

When we wanted to put a temple in an adventure, what god would it be dedicated to? We could make Generic Evil Temples™, but that would sap a lot of the flavor out of our adventures, and rob us of specific plot hooks and story lines based on the portfolios and histories of these gods.

When we wanted to illustrate a cleric in one of our books, what holy symbol would the cleric hold? Again, we could rely on a stable of generic symbols (maybe the Zapf Dingbat font?), but at the cost of a lot of flavor.

We ended up creating a new pantheon. At first, we used some of the gods from 3rd Edition as placeholder names -- we thought we'd come up with new names for [Pelor] the sun god and [Moradin] the god of the forge. Ultimately we decided that using some familiar faces was preferable to giving our players a whole new set of names to learn. Besides, if a god looks like an elf and took out the orc-god's eye like a certain well-known elf god, why not call him Corellon?

Corellon: The elf god is a good example of a god who kept his well-earned place in the D&D pantheon. But "the elf god" shouldn't be taken to literally. Sure, he's often depicted as an elf or an eladrin, and many eladrin in particular revere him. But he's equally popular among human wizards, and even dwarves who practice the finer arts are prone to offering him prayers. One of our goals with the new pantheon was to loosen the tight associations between gods and races that has in the past led to the creation of whole pantheons full of elf, dwarf, orc, and goblin deities. Corellon is still associated with elfy things like arcane magic and the Feywild, and he still hates Lolth and the drow. But his appeal is a little broader now.

Bahamut: Here's another example of a familiar, draconic face showing up in a somewhat new light. Maybe it was the Platinum Knight prestige class in Draconomicon that did it, but something convinced me a long time ago that Bahamut was a much cooler god of paladins than Heironeous ever was. Like Corellon, Bahamut's not just for dragons any more. He's the god of justice, protection, and honor, and many paladins of all races worship him. Many metallic dragons revere him as well, thinking of him as the first of their kind. Some legends about Bahamut describe him as literally a shining platinum dragon, while others describe him as a more anthropomorphic deity, who's called the Platinum Dragon as a title of respect. Exhorting his followers to protect the weak, liberate the oppressed, and defend just order, Bahamut stands as the exemplar of the paladin's ideal.

Bane: Here's another god whose placeholder name just stuck, despite some reservations. We wanted an evil war god in the pantheon, and without Heironeous, Hextor didn't make a lot of sense. We wanted the kind of heavily militaristic god whose temples you might find among non-evil societies who have spent long years at war, as well as among hobgoblins. We wanted a god who embodied just the sort of tyrannical dictatorship that Bane stands for in the Forgotten Realms. We started calling him Bane as a placeholder. He went through a number of different, unsatisfying names. Finally, someone said we should just call him Bane. So Bane he remained.

Like chocolate and peanut butter, we think Bane and Bahamut are two great tastes that taste great together. Does that mean you have to use them in your 4th Edition game? Of course not. But we think that, when you see these gods in action in our core books and adventures, you'll agree that they belong in their new places of honor in the pantheon of the D&D game.


Basically they are going to pull deities from different sources for "core" D&D.

In Service,

Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Saracenus
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not surprising that they took this approach, disapointing though. To much change for my taste. Part of the enjoyment for me was the familiarity, being resonably well versed in a subject matter. I enjoyed the fact that various Greyhawk factors are just that, for Greyhawk; just as aspects of the Forgotten Realms belong in that world; Oriental monsters and deities belong there; not mixing and matching and crossing over. To much of a loss of individuality for me. I also didn't care for the broadening of deity worshipers to include other races. I can see some blend, such as Hextor and hobgoblins, but not to far beyond that.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I don't get is, if they want a generic world divorced from all campaign settings, why don't they just make up some new gods to fit their needs, rather than just strip mining several settings for dieties and then warping them to fit divergent roles?

And when they do get round to publishing campaign settings, won't they run the risk of confusing some players with difference betwen the generic and original versions?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So. let me get this straight. If I cobble together bits and pieces of information from various sources and then lump it all together I can justifiably label it "new".

To (mis)quote The Who, "meet the new dross, same as the old dross".

This is certainly confusing for all. Old players need none of this; their existing campaigns probably have all the dieties needed, with existing relationships and conflicts. Initially new players might find it useful; but what happens when they decide to go beyond the adventure to adventure format and want to have a campaign? If they go for an existing setting they're in for one hell of a surprise. Or maybe that's part of the plan. Keep the newbies away from the nasty old dinosaur settings and their crusty relic players.

As for Heironeous not being cool enough; well, my friend, you must have a serious lack of imagination. Bahamut as a sticking plaster for your (Wotc's) agenda? Good luck with that!

And as for "Elfy things". Who are these people?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ragr wrote:
So. let me get this straight. If I cobble together bits and pieces of information from various sources and then lump it all together I can justifiably label it "new".

To (mis)quote The Who, "meet the new dross, same as the old dross".


Seems like. Confused
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guess they are teaching is old folks tricks of the trade!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was digging thru the community pile of D&D mini(atures for Eileen) and found a knightly looking Human Cleric of Bahamut figure (2007). Slipped by me at first, now it makes sense after this article. Man I hate those minis.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mortellan:

If we go back to calling them miniatures, all of our problems will go away in life. Every life related difficulty can be traced back to calling miniatures (minis). I also have it on good authority that if we do this, that WOTC will happily reimburse us twice over, for all of our previous edition D&D purchases as well as free lifelong upgrade to 4th edition. If we don't want that they will continue the 3.5 line and reimburse us three times over for our undo stress. See....life is better with miniatures.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The scene; a Wotc meeting room, a bunch of company exec's and game designers gathered round a table. The big chief rises and declares "we are no longer the company that say minis. We are now the company that say....." Ah, you can guess the rest.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ragr:

A non-serious post.

Getting a bit off topic but....saw that movie back in high school (have it on DVD now). At the time we (my D&D group and I) saw it, they decided to have a moment of humor and expand a very rare wish and turn themselves into the Knights of Neee. Naturally, when they said "Neee" everyone fled or cowered in fear. Never used it in a serious way, but I sure hated it at the time. Way to many doritos and mountain dew for these guys.

Do you think that somehow WOTC will secretly do something like this with our 3.5 books. Once 4th edition hits the shelf we will all run in fear from our currently played edition? Hmmm.....seems like good marketing strategy. Open the book to play and run in fear. Then magically feel compelled to buy the latest edition. They did after all enlist Tharizdun for 4th edition and he is the God of Destruction. Maybe they have a contract with him to destroy our 3rd edition.

My Divination abilities reveal that WOTC are the one's that started the "Mini's term". I see them slowly using such means to take over the world. By 7th edition we will all be mindless subjects of WOTC. They have after all, infilitrated Hasbro, what is probably the largest toy retailer in the world. They have expanded to countless countries worldwide and now they are entering the computer business in order to expand their empire and reach further and further into the youths of today, the adults of tomorrow. I foree see an eventual outcome like the movie Red Dawn. I keep looking out my window to see if they are parachuting or teleporting in with raised fireballs and magic missle spells.

In a similar moment my gaming group of high school got hooked on the movie Back to the Future. Huey Louis sang the title song to that film and everyone was a fan. In the movie when the car reaches a speed of 88 mph, it became a time machine. Much to my regret, they had another humor moment and decided that anytime they rolled 88 on percentile, that Huey Louis and the News showed up and played a couple of songs, then left. Unless I said it happened, they wouldn't go back to playing.

Funny, but moments I'd like to forget.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm certainly running in fear every time a new article on 4e goes up over at the Wotc site. Or, more accurately, my will to live is. So, with all the available evidence, I can safely "out" the writers of 4e as being the Knights of Ni reborn (Nee? Can't remember the correct spelling. Agggh! Can't rest until I find out). Now there's an idea, a 300 page hardcover called "Return To The Knights of Ni". Cynical, moi?

As for Huey Lewis turning up; you must have been running Ravenloft, 'cause that would scare the hell out of me. If you play with the same guys now you should have a rule where you actually have to listen to a Huey Lewis song whenever one of them rolls 88. Or, alternatively, on any successful save they make. Don't mess with DM's. We do remember and there will be a reckoning.

Now, where's that dvd? Ni or Nee. I shall not sleep.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I told you, the DVD's at my house. I never did check the spelling so it quite possibly could be the Knights of Ni. I only play about once or twice a year with one of them now. The rest have moved on. We do have this house rule which we call "Rolling for Music". Each character has a theme song. We roll d20 to see who gets to pick out the music for the night chooing from specific categories, such as 80's, soudtracks, and Kim Wilde. I actually have 2 D&D soundtracks, one of which references Greyhawk. If you roll a 20, you get to play your theme song while we set up the gaming room. My song is "Come On Eileen" by Dexy's Midnight Runners.

Maybe what I should have done is had the characters play with Huey Louis and the News and while they played, they attracted random encounters. Of coarse they would have been surprised since they were busy playing aweful music (none of them were a bard). Give the monsters a +5 to hit for being aggreivated by the terrible music they characters played.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The image of the Prophet of Istus entering the temple to the tune of Come On Eileen is more than slightly surreal. Good fun, though.

One question. Who on Oerth uses a Kim Wilde song for a theme tune?

Makes Huey Lewis look like the patron deity of bards.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, a completely non-serious post!

Ok Ragr, I'm calling you out. City of Greyhawk, Free City Arena, Sunsebb 1, 2:00. I'll bring my champion, Ariel Champion of Heironeous, you bring yourself (if you dare), or whatever kobold that keeps you as a pet. I'll understand if you don't show up, fear the wrath of Istus. Your fate is not good. Make your peace with whatever deity you claim to serve.

I listen to Kim Wilde, have since 1981. I started playing D&D in the early 80's and so I listened to a lot of her, still do. Some of my best games of old had her music in the background. Oh, at least I HAVE a theme song? What's yours? Oh, don't have one, hmmmm. Perhaps you will get one for Christmas this year. The paladin has a theme song as well.....Another one bites the dust, sure your up to the challenge now?

So the idea of playing Come on Eileen is silly huh. Hey, it will become my 4th edition powersource (if I ever play, NOT!).

It appears that you are from England, always wanted to go there and visit. By the way, Come on Eileen is not a Kim Wilde song it is Dexy's Midnight Runners, what did you do, miss your Knowledge check? She is after all from England as well. I take it your not a fan? Forgivable but my heart is saddened.

And as far as Huey Louis and the news being the god of bards well....have you ever heard the song I've want a new drug......so maybe.....he's elevated to godhood.

Ariel can't wait to kick your backend!
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha! Ragr laughs at your feeble challenge, as he sits in his Hobbit hole beside a warm fire counting mushrooms. What sort of crazy fool would be out in this weather waving cold metal around? Paladins? Ha! I've robbed 'em for breakfast.

By the way, I don't need no stinking theme tune. Totally ruins your Move Silently.

Which gods do I serve? Whichever one pays the most.

Having said that, I did say surreal and not silly. And, you know, as tough as I am, it doesn't pay to offend prophets. So you carry on and boogie away in 80's wonderland (like grunge never happened). I did know it was Dexy's and not the Wilde (mild) child, it was a translation error. Being a Halfling (and not at all nomadic, living in a wagon and all that Wotc nonsense) it's difficult typing when the keys are so huge.

Anyway, I promise to chuck a copper piece in the collection box at the next temple of Istus I, er......visit, that's the word. And while you're waiting in the arena I'm assuming there's nobody at home. Interesting.

By the way, I've forgotten what the subject of this thread was.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your going to need those mushrooms in order to avoid feeling any pain the paladin plans on dishing out, that is unless your admitting error and defeat. I haven't left the temple yet either, since the duel is a few days away. If your not planning on meeting us I think I'll enjoy another slice of roasted duck here at the temple. However, in an effort to solve this dilema in a diplomatic manner, I offer, free of charge, an atonement spell for your past deeds of unlawful acquistions.

I think a theme song would be appropriate for you, we could just turn down the volume a bit in order to not interfere with your stealth, or perhaps you could wear headphones. Nobody will hear you coming.

It's nice to hear that you have converted to Istus. You said you worship whichever god pays the most. Clearly, your future and eventual fate is worth the most. I suppose I could put in a good word for you if you'd like?

My bad, I misinterpreted the word "surreal".

I can understand the difficulty of typing when the keys are large for your fingers, as nimble as I'm sure they are. Perhaps we could put big gloves on to make it easier for you.

The subject of the thread was how they are incorporating and changing Greyhawk deities into 4th edition. As far as I can see, our conversation has been 100% relavent to that discussion. We have after all, been discussing religions (Istus and Heironeous). So far I haven't heard anything about Istus being drawn into the 4th edition mix (let's pray it doesn't happen). If it does, I will be looking for a good rogue to sneak into their headquarters and acquire or alter their well laid plans in an effort to stop this injustice. Know of any that are up to the challenge?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah! A job. What's the pay? And don't give me any of that it's good for the soul nonsense. Actually, if it involves messing with the High Tower of Wotc, Ragr may well be up to a bit of pro bono Roguery.

Atonement? Ragr only regrets the things he hasn't done.

If I have a theme tune and wear headphones I'm just going to end up like one of those annoying commuters you get on buses and trains. If I was to choose one, however, it would have to be Peter Gabriel's "Intruder".

I will join you in prayer, if you don't mind a godless heathen beside you that is, in wishing that the Lords of the Ivory Tower have the good grace to leave Istus, and as many of the other Greyhawk deities as possible, out of their 4e fluff.

With your reputation and wisdom, Eileen, you must know a mage who can design me a set of Gloves of Typing? They'll be well rewarded.

Or not.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The job pays well indeed. Think of all of RPG industrial secrets you will access and can slowly sell off in order to insure your place in Greyhawk history. They abandonded Greyhawk, so we (you) infiltrate them. Seems like a middle of the road neutral response (oops, I'm lawful too, darn, now what?).

Oooh, Oooh, I know! I bet if we influence the Oligarchy of Greyhawk City they will agree that such an effort could indeed save the World of Greyhawk. What greater, more noble cause could there be?

Since you have yet to lay low their imperial tower of evil I guess you must regret it. Cleanse the soul, do what you must. The Gods of Greyhawk support your efforts and hereby grant this quest. They are all concerned that they will get drawn into this 4th edition mess and want no part of it as well (except Tharizdun, he's all for destroying Greyhawk anyway).

I hear bards are already writing songs about you. Of coarse these songs take into consideration that you will succeed while others assume you will fail. Hey, maybe if you succeed a future Greyhawker will use one of these as their theme song. Wouldn't you like to be a theme song for some upcoming great rogue? I guess if you do we would have to make a new Rogues Gallery.

We could put you on a communter train with the headphones but if I'm not mistaken, won't someone think your from Ebberon?

Glove of Typing, hmmm. As I look into my background I do know a certain mage who use to frequent the Greyhawk area quite a bit when he was younger. Seems to me he associated himself with someone named Gary. On the Day of the Great Signing in Greyhawk City I got a little to close to the fireworks (so to speak) and he pulled me aside in a nick of time. Coarse I was just a kid at the time. I'll see what I can do.

This post will self destruct in 5 seconds. Ooops, wrong game!
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mortellan
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That must've been the silliest exchange I've ever seen on these forums. Please, carry on.
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok Mortellan, you just made me laugh. And honestly, that doesn't happen near as much as I wished it would. Thanks!
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