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    Age Before Ages Info
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:55 pm  
    Age Before Ages Info

    This is the thread I suggested starting based on Eileen's idea of compiling info about facts and legends concerning prehistoric history. What interesting things regarding the time period have been put out in D&D products that could mesh with Greyhawk? I'm lookin at all you Planescape-heads! List them here if you want to take part, and please provide citations.

    * The Wars Between Law and Chaos spanned several Material Plane worlds. On the side of Chaos was the Queen of Chaos and her followers. On the side of Law was the Vaati (Wind Dukes of Aaqa). Some of the Archomentals (Elemental Princes of Evil and Good) sided with one or the other side in the war; the Princes of Good with Law and the Princes of Evil for the most part with Chaos.

    * The Elder Elemental Eye claims to have sired the Elemental Princes of Evil. Rumor says that he is actually Tharizdun.

    * Ogremoch was the most involved with the war of the evil princes, becoming an ally of the Queen of Chaos when his enemy, Yan-C-Bin, Prince of Evil Air, sided with the Vaati. He personally took part in the battle of Pesh, which was the final conflict in the war.

    "Princes of Elemental Evil" Dragon # 347 p. 29-41


    *The Elemental Princes of Evil are older than the Elemental Princes of Good

    *Legends say that the elemental planes birthed the Elemental Princes of Good as a balance to the Princes of Evil. All four - Chan(Air), Ben-Hadar(Water), Sunnis(Earth), and Bristia Pel(Fire) joined the war on the side of law by collective choice.

    *Chan quit the war upon discovering that Yan-C-Bin was aiding the Vaati.

    *Two lesser evil elemental lords - Chilimba (Magma) and Ehkahk (Smoke... get it) - were also allies of the Vaati but betrayed the princes of good by killing Bristia Pel. Ben-Hadar broke with the Vaati over this and eventually joined the side of Chaos.

    *Rumor: Ben-Hadar and the Eladrin Queen, Morwell met during the war and became lovers.

    *Rumor: Zaman Ruhl (the current Prince of Good Fire) may be the son of Bristia Pel (deceased Princess of Good Fire) by Imix, Prince of Evil Fire.

    *Sunnis was the the only good prince to support Law through the entire war. She fought Ogremoch at the Battle of Pesh, keeping him from stopping the banishment of Miska the Spider Wolf by the Wind Dukes. She also has a dispute with the archdevil Dispater dating back to ancient times.

    "Princes of Elemental Good" Dragon # 353 p. 43-50

    *Boccob predates all but the oldest of gods. He believes that Tharizdun is somehow responsible for the fading of magic on Oerth.

    "Core Beliefs: Boccob" Dragon # 338 p. 39-51
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:32 pm  

    Oh, I put this in the other thread, but this thread is relevant.

    Here's the part that I bothered to annotate:

    * The leshays destroy the previous multiverse [Epic Level Handbook, 202].
    * The present multiverse begins, created by the so-called Old Ones. [DM's Guide to Immortals, page 3]
    * The Old Ones create draedens and the first dragons [Dragon #158, page 14]
    * The Elder Evils create the aboleths [Lords of Madness, page 15]
    * The Old Ones create a Barrier around the multiverse and withdraw beyond it, interacting with their creation only through their minions, the umbral blots and spectral hounds. Others say the umbral blots destroy their creators [DM's Guide to Immortals, pages 3, 4, and 50 - see also the Epic Level Handbook, page 224]
    * The first gods find the multiverse without order and without purpose, and they make the achievements of these things their highest goal. [ibid]
    * The draedens become resentful of the gods, and the two forces go to war. After long strife and negotiations, the draedens agree to peace, planning to outlast their enemies, waiting for the gods to destroy themselves, leaving the multiverse to them again.[DM's Guide to Immortals, page 39]
    * The draeden Ulgurshek falls asleep in the void that will one day become the Abyss [FC:1, 126]. The Sleeping Ones fall asleep in what will become the Plane of Ice [The Inner Planes, 72].
    * The forces of Good, Evil, Law, Neutrality, and Chaos form [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 8]
    * The force of Evil creates the baernaloths [Ibid, page 8]. The force of Law creates the Twin Serpents [Guide to Hell, page 2]. The slaad lords (first Ssendam, then Ygorl) and the unnamed celestial progenitors also emerge at this time.
    * Law and Chaos battle, as do Good and Evil, twisting and deforming scope of existence. [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 8]. The forces of Law enforce order on the chaos of the outer planes, leaving the Abyss as the remnants of their plunder. [FC:1, page 5].
    * The Unity of Rings principle is established by the Twin Serpents [Guide to Hell, 2]
    * The Outlands are created at the border of Law and Chaos [Guide to Hell, page 2, also Hellbound page 8].
    * The Rule of Threes principle is established [Guide to Hell, 2]
    * The Center of All principle is established last [Guide to Hell, 2]
    * Law combines with Good and Evil, and Chaos does the same thing [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 8]. The Serpents battle between themselves. [Guide to Hell, 3]
    * The Inner Planes shift. The Paraelemental Planes of Dust and Vapor become Quasielemental Planes of Dust and Steam. They are replaced by the new Paraelemental Planes of Smoke and Ooze [Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix III, page 116; see also 1e Deities & Demigods, page 113]
    * Thousands of years after the emergence of the baernaloths, they create the yugoloths. [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, 8 and 10] The guardinals are created at the same time. The roles of the Celestial Lion and his Five Companions are established [Book of Exalted Deeds, 138]
    * The Styx grows from a trickle to a stream, creek, and finally a full river. [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, 10]. The Oceanus grows at the same time.
    * The rebellious baernaloth Apomps creates the demodands [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, 10]
    * The General of Gehenna creates the Heart of Darkness to purify the yugoloths of Law and Chaos. The expunged forces are transferred into larvae and driven into Baator and the Abyss [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, 10]
    * The tainted larvae evolve into obyriths [Fiendish Codex I] and ancient baatorians. Ssendam and Ygorl create the Spawning Stone to limit future slaad forms [Tales From the Infinite Staircase, 71] Seven blessed martyrs who sacrificed themselves for the cause of a goodness and law are transformed into the first of the Celestial Hebdomad [Book of Exalted Deeds, page 124]. The eladrin Queen of Stars is born [Book of Exalted Deeds, 150]
    * The baernaloths disappear [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 11].
    * The ancient baatorians disappear [Hellbound: War Games. [page 74], leaving behind their young, the nupperibos [Faces of Evil, 12]
    * The kamarel Hallonac creates the Mirrored Library [Tales From the Infinite Staircase, 102]
    * The beholder Great Mother spawns beholders and gibbering mouthers [Lords of Madness, 37] and oculus demons [Dungeon #129, 64]
    * Obyriths create the tanar'ri [FC1, 105]. The first baatezu form from the blood pooling in the Serpent's Coil in Nessus [Guide to Hell, 36]. Aphanacts emerge from Mechanus [Dragon #341, 52]
    * The vaati conquer the Elemental Planes and much of the Material Plane [Dungeon #124, 17]
    * The Queen of Chaos declares war on the vaati [FC1, 106], cowing most of her rivals under her banner. Ogremoch becomes her ally [Dungeon #124, page 29]. Bwimb becomes her ally [Dungeon #129, 47]. She kills Obox-Ob, naming Miska the Wolf-Spider Prince of Demons in his stead [FC1, 73]. Dagon refuses to become involved [FC1, 61].
    * World after world falls to the Queen of Chaos and her minions [FC1, 106].
    * Law and Chaos stalemate for centuries [Dungeon #124, 17]
    * The battle at Pesh. Miska the Wolf-Spider is bound by the vaati Icosiol using the Rod of Seven Parts [Dungeon #124, 17]
    * The Harrowing of the Abyss. The eladrin Queen of Stars dispatches an army to cleanse the Abyss of the obyriths. The tanar'ri, led by Demogorgon [FC1, 139], rebel against their former masters. [FC1, 106] Pale Night misleads the Consort of Stars, Ascodel, and thousands of eladrins are imprisoned in the layer Androlynne [FC1, 148]
    * War between the rilmani and kamarel [Tales From the Infinite Staircase, 103]. The kamarel flee into the Plane of Mirrors.
    * Ascodel, Consort of Stars, dies protecting the innocents of Androlynne [FC1, 148].
    * Although Law and Chaos settle into an awkward stalemate throughout most of the planes [FC`,106], the tanar'ri and baatezu fight on. Parties of the respective races encounter one another for the first time, resulting in slaughter on their respective planes. Larger parties are sent in retribution, then batallions, then armies. [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 11].
    * Arcanaloths offer the mercenary services of their race to the tanar'ri and baatezu. They betray their employers in the very first battle. [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 11]
    * Demogorgon declares himself Prince of Demons. [FC1, 139] The Lords of the Nine make their first appearance in planar records. [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 11]
    * The balance of power between tanar'ri and baatezu swings wildly [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 11]
    * The tanar'ri and baatezu explore the upper and neutral planes [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 12]
    * Millions of celestials, archons and angels (not eladrins, who learned their lesson long before) intercede in the Blood War. Only 3000 return to the Upper Planes, teaching the celestials caution and prudence when dealing with the fiends [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 12].
    * In the aftermath of the slaughter, celestials schism along lawful and chaotic lines. [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 13]
    * War in the heavens [Book of Exalted Deeds, 124]. The archon Triel succumbs to temptation, craving more power and authority than Heaven would grant him. Blinded by ambition, he goes to far and is exiled to Hell as Lord Baalzebul [Book of Vile Darkness, 158; see also Green Ronin's Legions of Hell, page 60].
    * The fiends begin keeping meticulous histories of events. [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 13]
    * The gods intercede in the Blood War. A god of chaos dies, apparently due to the agency of wrathful fiends. Most take the hint and leave the demons and devils to their war; a few continue to involve themselves to this day [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, 13]
    * Early battles in the Blood War. Bel, not yet a Lord of the Nine, executes his legendary Four-Cross. [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 13; Guide to Hell, page 39]
    * After millennia, the first petitioners begin arriving in the Outer Planes. Baatezu experiment on twisting them into lemures. Archons transform them into lanterns. Tanar'ri turn them into manes. [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, 13]
    * Fiends and celestials discover Sigil, the City of Doors, and its Lady of Pain [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 14]. They scheme to use it to their advantage.
    * First battles on the Field of Nettles in the Gray Waste [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 14]
    * The empire of the Aeree, the progenitors of birdlike humanoid races, emerges on worlds not dominated by illithids. [Citation needed - Serpent Kingdoms?]
    * Kiaransalee, necromancer-queen of the world of Threnody, ascends into true divinity after destroying her world. [Demihuman Deities, 23; also Lost Empires of Faerun timeline]
    * The Blood War pauses to access the threat of the expanding illithid empire [The Illithiad, page 38]
    * The first human, Vashar, is destroyed by the gods. He is recreated by a demon, some say Graz'zt. [Book of Vile Darkness, 12]
    * A slave rebellion headed by a Pharagoan warrior-psion named Gith quickly spreads to most illithid settlements. The armies are divided into three groups, one led by a warrior-psion named Zerthimon, one led by a wizard named Vlaakith, and one led by Gith herself. Enough elder brains are destroyed to break the Overmind and plunge the illithid empire into darkness. [The Illithiad, page 39, and Dungeon #100]
    * The Proclaimation of Two Skies. The followers of Gith begin to battle one another as Gith's general Zerthimon leads a third of their forces against her [Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix One, 48]
    * Zerthimon is killed in personal combat with Gith. The followers of Zerthimon make a strategic defeat to Limbo, a plane hazardous enough to discourage pursuit but not devoted to evil. [A Guide to the Astral Plane, 46]
    * Gith travels to Baator to make a pact with Tiamat's red dragon consort Ephelomon. She does not return. [A Guide to the Astral Plane, 46] Vlaakith is crowned Vlaakith I, Queen of the Githyanki.
    * Tanar'ri and baatezu begin exploiting the Material Plane [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 14]. A group of archons called the Watchers teach mortals the arts of enchantment, astrology, smithcraft, writing, and the signs of the sun and clouds. The Watchers are exiled from Celestia for interfering too closely with mortal development. They give rise to a race of aasimar [Planes of Law: Mount Celestia, page 10; See also Green Ronin's Legions of Hell, page 61]
    * 30,000 years ago. Araushnee is driven from the Seldarine [Lost Empires of Faerun timeline]
    * Collapse of the spellweaver empire [Dragon #338, 63]
    * Much more than 10,000 years ago, a wizard of nearly godlike power weaves a spell designed to destroy the lady of Pain. He is imprisoned in the Labyrinth Stone and cast into Pandemonium [Faction War, 4]
    * The race of ethergaunts, or Khen-Zai, abandon the material plane for the Ethereal. [3e Fiend Folio, 64]
    * Orcus becomes a demon, initially a manes [FC1, 127]
    * 10,000 years ago. The death of Shekelor. [In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil, 23]. The last aphanact disappears from the plane of Mechanus [Dragon #341, 52].
    * The Reckoning/Rebellion of the Inferiors in Baator begins. The lower castes take advantage of changes in the Material Plane to rebel. Some of the Lords of the Nine take advantage of the rebellion to attempt to sieze control of Nessus. In the aftermath, Moloch and Geryon are removed from their positions. Triel is transformed into a hideous, sluglike being. Fierana becomes Lady of the Fourth. The Dark Eight take control of Baator's legions. [Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 14; Guide to Hell, 37]
    * The first inevitables appear [Dragon #341, 52].
    * Imaskari empire stricken by mysterious plague. [Lost Empires of Faerun]
    * War between geniekind and the gods. The Loregiver receives the Law from Fate Herself. [Adventurer's Guide to Zakhara, 114]
    * 4000 years ago, the mortal Alvarez becomes a chasme. [Faces of Evil: The Fiends, 60]
    * A truce between the warring forces of the Blood War is brokered in order to study the newly-opened Ghoresh Chasm.
    * A thousand years ago: Vlaakith CLVII is crowned queen of the githyanki. [A Guide to the Astral Plane, 52]
    * About 500 years ago. The monk Tarmuid, the first illumian, becomes a god [Races of Destiny, 73]
    * About 200 years ago. The Death of Orcus.
    * "Relatively recently," Mydianchlarus whispers a single secret of such profound and disturbing insight that Anthraxus leaves Khin-Oin. [Faces of Evil, 71]
    * A hundred years ago. The library of the goddess Aulasha is sacked by the githyanki, rendering Aulasha homeless [Races of Destiny, 74]
    * 8 years ago. Orcus returns to Thanatos, driving the goddess Kiaransalee to the world of Guldor [FC1, 125].
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:38 pm  

    Wow. Rasgon, that's some impressive research! I just thought I'd tack on a couple of thoughts.

    It doesn't quite jive with the tanar'ri origins in Faces of Evil, but the Fiendish Codex, as well as the Demonomicon entry on Demogorgon (Dragon 357), has the Tannar'ri being created by the Obryths out of the first mortal souls to filter into the abyss (only slightly different from previous sources). It's only worth mentioning because the Dragon article makes a big deal that Demogorgon was the first tanar'ri ever made - which makes him the first mortal soul in the abyss. I like this as it ties in well with Demogorgon's bestial, primal nature. It begs the question, what kind of horrible pre-human creature was Demogorgon before he died?

    I was happy to see the Illithiad referenced - I love that book. It's an awesome source for information on the illithid empire and that part of prehistory. Much better fluff than Lords of Madness, for the mind-flayers at least. LOM is great for info. on the Aboleth though - with a couple of nice nods to the Night Below boxed set.
    GreySage

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    Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:29 am  

    Not all tanar'ri are made from mortal souls. They represent mortal sins, an evil that would be comprehensible to mortals, in its broad strokes, if not for its ancient intensity. Many emerge from the Abyss directly, connected to mortals only in the sense that the ideas they personify were born in mortal minds. Others are born from other demons through sexual reproduction.

    Of the three greatest lords of the Abyss, James Jacobs seems to have said (at least, this is what I gathered from his Demonomicon articles) that Orcus was once a mortal soul, Demogorgon emerged from the Abyss spontaneously, and was never mortal, and Graz'zt is the product of sexual reproduction (being a son of Pale Night). Together they represent the three ways a tanar'ri can come into being.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:30 am  

    Rasgon, I noticed you mentioned some Green Ronin material, which begs the question: qlippoths. Are qlippoths going to be included in this mess? I don't have my books handy (they're all packed for my upcoming move), but I know the Armies of the Abyss book from GR described the qlippoths as the leftover trash from the creation of the multiverse. Does this make them older than the obyriths?
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:18 am  

    Holy crap! I guess it is laid out failry plainly. Thanks Rasgon, and thanks for answering my question about the "Quadrapartite" adventure in the other thread. "Goopy whatsits" should be instituted as the official term for lifeforms on the Far Realm. Smile
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:37 am  

    Page 113 of my 1e Deities and Demigods is the Norse gods. But then I do have an actual first edition with the Cthulu and Melnibonean mythos in them. Not one of the poser 1e that came later.
    GreySage

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    Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:58 am  

    gargoyle wrote:
    Rasgon, I noticed you mentioned some Green Ronin material, which begs the question: qlippoths. Are qlippoths going to be included in this mess? I don't have my books handy (they're all packed for my upcoming move), but I know the Armies of the Abyss book from GR described the qlippoths as the leftover trash from the creation of the multiverse. Does this make them older than the obyriths?


    Obyriths and qlippoth are essentially the same thing. Erik Mona invented the qlippoth for Armies of the Abyss and renamed them for Fiendish Codex I. Their generic powers are slightly different, but their backstory is identical: leftover trash from the creation of the multiverse (according to some versions of the creation story - I use above an alternate one given by some of the obyriths themselves, for example Bechard) who created the tanar'ri and were slaughtered by the eladrins.
    GreySage

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    Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:01 am  

    vonbek wrote:
    Page 113 of my 1e Deities and Demigods is the Norse gods. But then I do have an actual first edition with the Cthulu and Melnibonean mythos in them. Not one of the poser 1e that came later.


    Ah. I was just pointing at the appendix with the maps of the planes in them. The original paraelemental chart was different, and probably (in-game) represents the "original" formation before things shifted a zillion years ago. Out of game, we know that Gary Gygax just decided he wanted to base the inner planar configuration on a six-sided die instead of a circle.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:16 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    [clipped]

    Obyriths and qlippoth are essentially the same thing. Erik Mona invented the qlippoth for Armies of the Abyss and renamed them for Fiendish Codex I. Their generic powers are slightly different, but their backstory is identical: leftover trash from the creation of the multiverse (according to some versions of the creation story - I use above an alternate one given by some of the obyriths themselves, for example Bechard) who created the tanar'ri and were slaughtered by the eladrins.


    I kind of like using "qlippoth", though. According to wikipedia:
    "Qliphoth, the representations of evil forces in the mystical teachings of Judaism, such as in the Kabbalah." Whereas "obyrith" has no etymology, seeming to be a construct much as "tanar'ri", "baatezu" and "yugoloth". Then again, "obyrith" fits with those names just as well, I suppose... Cool
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    Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:34 am  

    How does the date of the Battle of Pesh here jive with its mention as having occurred in the Flanaess in the LGG apocrypha?

    P.
    GreySage

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    Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:56 am  

    Woesinger wrote:
    How does the date of the Battle of Pesh here jive with its mention as having occurred in the Flanaess in the LGG apocrypha?

    P.


    I was more concerned with figuring out how it fit with the other dates than worrying about apocrypha, which only said, vaguely, "more than 15,000 years ago," and was dated by a character within the game and so not necessarily to be trusted. It seems to me that the more recent sources implied it happened much earlier. The Battle of Pesh wasn't, at the time the apocrypha was written, assumed to mark the beginning of the tanar'ri race's dominion over the Abyss.

    However, none of this is rigidly fixed, and I'm sure you could cobble together a timeline that placed the Battle of Pesh much later, after such events as the illithid empire, which I placed before the fall of Lolth based on an arbitrary assumption of an average of 200 years for each of their rulers, but could be reasonably put as early as 12,000 years ago (which was around the time a stream of illithid refugees was mentioned in an FR supplement, Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, 75) or 14,000 years ago (to synch it up with the first appearance of psionics on that world, which was associated with a githzerai bomb according to the adventure Black Spine). If it's not important to you to synch up the events on the various worlds, the illithid empire might be placed almost anywhere, keeping in mind that the githyanki have had 152 long-lived monarchs since then, with the last two ruling for 1,500 years between them (A Guide to the Astral Plane, Planar Handbook, "The Ecology of the Devourer" in Dragon #355).

    Note that the first timeline I posted in the thread I linked to above is somewhat different from this one. In this one, I assumed that references to "tanar'ri" and "baatezu" were just that, which placed almost the whole of the Hellbound: The Blood War timeline after Pesh, while in the other one I assumed they should properly be considered references to the obyriths and proto-diabolic "angels" mentioned in the FCII. That pushes the Battle of Pesh much later in the history (after the first use of mortal souls to create new fiends, after the Intervention of the Celestials and the first interference of the gods), though still a long time ago. I would've pasted that timeline here instead, but I didn't include citations on it (the citations are the same as on the one above, just interpreted differently).

    So, anyway, despite my intimidating-looking citations, keep in mind that there was quite a bit of interpretation and guesswork in the above, and I'm sure it could come out in many different ways.

    I didn't include the binding of Tharizdun, incidentally. It was long before Pesh, since the elemental princes are too young to remember it (Monster Manual IV, 7). I'd place it during the time of the draedens, with Tharizdun either as a god who became "infected" with the primal void before creation, or a personification of the void itself.
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