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An idea for 4E in Greyhawk

 
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MikelAmroni
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:30 am    Post subject: An idea for 4E in Greyhawk Reply with quote

I know that many here consider the idea of 4E incompatible with Greyhawk. That's cool. I know many here are going to ignore 4E and use 3.5 (I know I'm going to for Ebberon until it comes out, and then make my decision).

All that's well and good.

What I am suggesting is that we produce a small setting - a point of light, if you will, that we here on Canonfire can make truly greyhawk, and at the same time, 4E. An easy way to do this would be away from the Flanaess, and if that's the decision we come up with, awesome. If we decide to use some less detailed corner of the flanaess, then that works too!

Questions to answer:
1. Where will we place the village/small town? I'm setting the size of the village small early on for a reason: namely so it can provide enough framework for adventures, while not being overwhelming.

2. What races are there? We don't have extended ability trees in 4E for gnomes, so we can do one of two things:
a. Create one (once the game comes out and we have enough references to make the necessary assumptions)

b. Wipe them out of the immediate setting. A plague, an attempt at genocide by some enemy, whatever. Either option sets up a lot of adventure ideas. I know I've got some percolating right now. It could be something else entirely, or it could just be that they never settled here. Its completely reasonable.

3. What to do about the two new races? I've got two ideas there.
a. One is a simple planar refugee plotline. From some other prime, you get a group of each race that managed to strand themselves here. After a while, they lost interest in fighting each other (they were fighting to a stalemate on their homeworld and mostly had ony succeeded in killing each other, and once their commanders were dead here, that no longer seemed such a good idea).

b. The other is that instead of empires, they had a kingdom (or two) each, nestled in some convient valley (or two). Standard story played out, and they mostly killed themselves. Only stragglers remained and they basically stopped fighting. Still get your ruins you need for adventuring, but without the need to change the whole world. Both of these ideas assume we place it somewhere in the known flanaess.

4. The Eladrin. Yeah, its that complicated a question that the simple naming of them creates issues. I kinda like the idea of primeival elves that have a sort of noldor storyline going (That's tolkien for the uninformed), while the now native elves are backwards in comparison. Actually I think the Eladrin/Elf dynamic has successfully ressurected the Middle Earth concept of elves. Some of us like this, some of us do not. That's okay. Lets assume for now we are trying to preserve both the flavor of the 4E system AND Greyhawk. It shouldn't be that hard if we try.

5. The half-orc question is pretty simple - we don't include orcs in the region. Goblinoids and gnolls should provide ample low level challenges, and the lack of orcs could be a significant story issue. Maybe the same thing that wiped out the gnomes wiped out the orcs. Maybe it was an attempt to wipe out the orcs by the gnomes, and they got caught by their own hubris. Maybe it was the orcs who were practicing on gnomes before they took out the elves. Who knows. Either way it affected both.

6. With races out of the way, we move on to the village/town itself. Is it a mayor elected by the elders of the village type government? Is there an appointed sherriff the lord who nominally rules this area put in power? both? Is there a council of elders who rule instead of one person? What church(es) is(are) there? I personally liked the idea put forth for a multi-denominational church. We ignore the 4E gods, as they are specific to the base world of 4E. We use Greyhawk gods. Which ones? Are the people Flan, Suel, what? I'm sure we can build ability trees based on the various types of humans. Which people there are would play heavily into what gods there are. For example, Pelor, Obad-hai, and St. Cuthbert fould share a temple, with one being slightly more important than the other - likely Obad-hai or Pelor (if the people are mostly farmers). Oh, btw, if it wasn't obvious, we're also ignoring the 4E cosmology in favor of the Great Wheel. If need be, we can re-create the demons and devils we need to. I think, honestly, that we can just use the stats as is, and put them back in a Great Wheel Cosmology easily enough.

7. What does the town do to trade? Some trade exists with a town or village about a day or two travel. Do they mostly trade grain for metal goods? Are they miners? Are they herdsmen? Some food production is going to happen, but is it enough to meet their needs? Are they a breadbasket for other towns which have mining interests? Are they a production region for some other commodity (cloth, wine, silk, jewelry, weapons, armor). They are going to have more than one industry, but only one or maybe two are going to be trade worthy.

8. What are the basic outlines of the nearby towns. A week's travel should be sufficient. Are they at the end of a road, or in the middle of one? How close is the Lord's manor? Ideally he should be able to meet a threat within no more than a week's ride. If his domain is larger than that, then he has vassals who protect smaller areas. Who are they? We don't need much here. A name, a blurb about the person, and little else. Let those who make specific adventures dealing with them flesh them out. Racial makeup should factor into the basic descriptions of the towns.

9. What adventure sites are nearby? An abandoned mine? A citadel of the tiefling lords who used to rule the area in ages long gone? A orcish fortress sitting over a cavern system that has been taken over by drow and their slaves?

Aside from the basic assumption of the size of town, nothing I have stated is in anyway binding. I'm okay with blowing away all preconcieved notions. The only thing I want is to maintain both the basic race information in 4E, AND Greyhawk's integrity.

I await input Happy
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MikelAmroni
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one? Anyone? I realize few here like the idea of 4E, and I'm cool with that. What I'm asking for is simply a way to use their core concepts in Greyhawk, without markedly changing the races they've given (aside from adding in the ones missing). Given the creative talent on this board, this should be an easy collaborative effort. If you can think of an area where it works well that exists already, tell me it. If you think it would be best placed elsewhere, tell me that too. But give me something, please.
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok Mikel I will try:

Quote:
What I am suggesting is that we produce a small setting - a point of light, if you will, that we here on Canonfire can make truly greyhawk, and at the same time, 4E. An easy way to do this would be away from the Flanaess, and if that's the decision we come up with, awesome. If we decide to use some less detailed corner of the flanaess, then that works too!


First off, if it was up to me.....I would elect to preserve the Flanaess the way it is. This leaves settling another continent. This has three positive effects.

1. It leaves the Flanaess alone, the way most Greyhawkers would like it (probably).
2. It details out another area of the World of Greyhawk, which is something that many people would like to see.
3. It makes these regions considerably different from one another.

Quote:
Questions to answer:
1. Where will we place the village/small town? I'm setting the size of the village small early on for a reason: namely so it can provide enough framework for adventures, while not being overwhelming.


Now I am not real knowledgeable about the lands beyond the Flanaess. I have seen Gary's sketched out map and others who have done some real work with it (not really adding detail but rather just duplicating the map so it looks a lot nicer. Also I know that various people here on Canonfire are making an effort to collectively flesh out these areas as well. I don't know the progress of this effort and I don't want to step on any toes so, for the sake of avoiding issues I don't want to designate a specific area. Personally, I would like to see the next extension that is developed be attached to "beyond the sea of dust as it would make it easier to use. But regardless.....

I think a small village would be a good place to start. Simlar to Greyhawk City, I would place the village in a locale that has a variety of terrain for the sake of better adventuring. I would make this village an outpost of an outer/wild region and not something as civilized as the Flanaess proper. The reason I would take this approach is to make it different and thus I believe more useful. The Flanaess has enough border to border kingdoms and I see no reason to repeat this. Also, it will work better with the 4th edition Points of Light concept.

Quote:
2. What races are there? We don't have extended ability trees in 4E for gnomes, so we can do one of two things:

a. Create one (once the game comes out and we have enough references to make the necessary assumptions)

b. Wipe them out of the immediate setting. A plague, an attempt at genocide by some enemy, whatever. Either option sets up a lot of adventure ideas. I know I've got some percolating right now. It could be something else entirely, or it could just be that they never settled here. Its completely reasonable.


The gnome must stay. One could easily say that gnomes do not dwell in these newly developed lands of ours and therefore save the hassle of waiting on 4th edition. I don not like the idea of a plague or similar means of erasing the gnome, seems to forced. Merely stating that some different races dwell in these lands seems better. Also it makes it different from the Flanaess.

Quote:
3. What to do about the two new races? I've got two ideas there.
a. One is a simple planar refugee plotline. From some other prime, you get a group of each race that managed to strand themselves here. After a while, they lost interest in fighting each other (they were fighting to a stalemate on their homeworld and mostly had ony succeeded in killing each other, and once their commanders were dead here, that no longer seemed such a good idea).

b. The other is that instead of empires, they had a kingdom (or two) each, nestled in some convient valley (or two). Standard story played out, and they mostly killed themselves. Only stragglers remained and they basically stopped fighting. Still get your ruins you need for adventuring, but without the need to change the whole world. Both of these ideas assume we place it somewhere in the known flanaess.


I guess I don't care for the first idea all that much (sorry)! The whole came from another plane or world idea isn't my cup of tea overall. I like Rhennee, but this is the one thing about them I didn't like. I would opt to simply say that the land we are developing has always had these races. Since the land has never been detailed to begin with, I see no reason to force and squeeze them in with some elaborate backdrop story. If we were to go with the 4th edition PH version of tieflings and dragonborn and perhaps modify it a bit, I would venture to go with saying that significant issues still are in progress and that the two races have beaten each other down to a stalemate. What exists now is sort of a gurilla warfare effect. I would also write the story of the races so that one side is finally gearing its resources together and once again starting to organize. As a result and for fear of being eradicated, the opposing race seeks out another race of creatures to side with them. This would be the starting point of the races relations and how they fit into the world. Seems like a good place to start and allows the DM to do what they would like with it in any direction rather than saying "This IS the way it IS".

Quote:
4. The Eladrin. Yeah, its that complicated a question that the simple naming of them creates issues. I kinda like the idea of primeival elves that have a sort of noldor storyline going (That's tolkien for the uninformed), while the now native elves are backwards in comparison. Actually I think the Eladrin/Elf dynamic has successfully ressurected the Middle Earth concept of elves. Some of us like this, some of us do not. That's okay. Lets assume for now we are trying to preserve both the flavor of the 4E system AND Greyhawk. It shouldn't be that hard if we try.


In the newely developed land, the Eladrin are a different elven race all together. I would give them some sort of tie to the planes in order to avoid the complete reinvention of them that from what I gather 4th edition offers.

Quote:
5. The half-orc question is pretty simple - we don't include orcs in the region. Goblinoids and gnolls should provide ample low level challenges, and the lack of orcs could be a significant story issue. Maybe the same thing that wiped out the gnomes wiped out the orcs. Maybe it was an attempt to wipe out the orcs by the gnomes, and they got caught by their own hubris. Maybe it was the orcs who were practicing on gnomes before they took out the elves. Who knows. Either way it affected both.


Agreed. The Flanaess has enough orcs for everyone already. Time to make areas of the Flanaess different from one another. I'd say the orcs never settled or the ones that were there were casualties of the dragonborn tiefling war. Another option is that they are slaves of one of these two races and therefore they very much in the minority and have a 2nd class citizenship feel to them.

Quote:
6. With races out of the way, we move on to the village/town itself. Is it a mayor elected by the elders of the village type government? Is there an appointed sherriff the lord who nominally rules this area put in power? both? Is there a council of elders who rule instead of one person? What church(es) is(are) there? I personally liked the idea put forth for a multi-denominational church. We ignore the 4E gods, as they are specific to the base world of 4E. We use Greyhawk gods. Which ones? Are the people Flan, Suel, what? I'm sure we can build ability trees based on the various types of humans. Which people there are would play heavily into what gods there are. For example, Pelor, Obad-hai, and St. Cuthbert fould share a temple, with one being slightly more important than the other - likely Obad-hai or Pelor (if the people are mostly farmers). Oh, btw, if it wasn't obvious, we're also ignoring the 4E cosmology in favor of the Great Wheel. If need be, we can re-create the demons and devils we need to. I think, honestly, that we can just use the stats as is, and put them back in a Great Wheel Cosmology easily enough.


I would start with Greyhawk deities that don't get much exposure and make them more of a focal point for religion. Avoid the Heironeous/Hextor/Pelor and some of the other more common individuals. I think the deties that would be good representations include:

Beltar (CE goddess of malice, caves, and pits)
Erythnul (CE god of hate, envy, malice panic, slaughter, ugliness)
Joramy (N goddess of fire, volcanoes, wrath, anger, and quarrels)
Lirr (CG goddessof poetry, art, literature, prose)
Merikka (demigoddess of farming, agriculture, and home)
Mouqol (N god of trade, negotiation, ventures, appraisal, and reciprocity)

Anyway, you get the idea. Use deities which haven't seen a whole lot of use. I just kinda browsed through the LGG, I didn't really take into consideration human races (which should be a factor). I think we would have to take some time to decide which races have been exposed to this area. I think it also should be determined if this area was developed before or after the Flanaess was.

I think I would have the town governed by an overlord who is harsh with his citizens. Make it a bit brutal. I think it helps with the Points of Light concept, it is simple, and there is room later for developing more concrete forms of governments. As a basic starting adventuring area filled with strike, I think I warlord of some sorts is the way to go.

As far as the multi-denominational church is concerned I think it is fine, though I don't know if it would fit with the overlord well. Perhaps there are secret shrines to multiple neutral and good deities rather than hidden shrines of evil deities.

Quote:
7. What does the town do to trade? Some trade exists with a town or village about a day or two travel. Do they mostly trade grain for metal goods? Are they miners? Are they herdsmen? Some food production is going to happen, but is it enough to meet their needs? Are they a breadbasket for other towns which have mining interests? Are they a production region for some other commodity (cloth, wine, silk, jewelry, weapons, armor). They are going to have more than one industry, but only one or maybe two are going to be trade worthy.


Perhaps we could go with something different like a bartering system. We would still need coin for some commerce and certainly the PCs, but maybe the norm is bartering from one community to another. Just an idea to make things different.

Quote:
8. What are the basic outlines of the nearby towns. A week's travel should be sufficient. Are they at the end of a road, or in the middle of one? How close is the Lord's manor? Ideally he should be able to meet a threat within no more than a week's ride. If his domain is larger than that, then he has vassals who protect smaller areas. Who are they? We don't need much here. A name, a blurb about the person, and little else. Let those who make specific adventures dealing with them flesh them out. Racial makeup should factor into the basic descriptions of the towns.


I think if the area were to be war torn then I would opt for a warlord to have a fairly small domain, with monsters creeping closer and closer rather than having him trying to exercise his muscle and branch outward. This emphasizes the Points of Light idea. It also helps explain why he is the overlord he is. If he tries for to much territory, he will lose what he has, so he grips his lands with an iron fist. Perhaps those on the other side of the war could be seen as liberators rather than the enemy by some folk.

Quote:
9. What adventure sites are nearby? An abandoned mine? A citadel of the tiefling lords who used to rule the area in ages long gone? A orcish fortress sitting over a cavern system that has been taken over by drow and their slaves?


Perhaps ruins of the orcs that were taken as slaves and eventually reduced to very small numbers. I would also use this opportunity to add to the history of the region (kinda like how Castle Greyhawk did for Greyhawk City). I wouldn't make it a wealth beyond imagination like Castle Greyhawk, but rather a place or series of related places which the ordinary man and monster would fear so greatly. Whatever one comes up with, it opens the land up for some big opportunities down the road for DM development. Maybe we could go with a mega Underoerth sort of thing or maybe not.

Quote:
Aside from the basic assumption of the size of town, nothing I have stated is in anyway binding. I'm okay with blowing away all preconcieved notions. The only thing I want is to maintain both the basic race information in 4E, AND Greyhawk's integrity.


Sound Good! Happy
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Telemachus
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One way I see of adapting Greyhawk to 4e is to have some kind of epic spell or spell effect cause a rift between the standard Oerth material plane and an alternate Oerth material plane, thereby combinig the two. Perhaps there was finally a great magical battle between the Circle of Eight and Iggwilv and Company or something similar which causes the rift. Maybe this is why Mordenkainen's philosophy of balance was so important; he knew that if balance shifted and had to be heavily countered it could tear the fabric of reality itself. This is but one of many ways you could explain such an occurence.

In any event the effect would be that the entire population of Oerth (both living and undead, even deities) would be altered accordingly to fit 4e. Entire histories would be altered. Political boundries may be reshaped. Many would not survive. Many may survive but might go mad (Hey, Zagyg may get more worshippers and make the jump from demigod to lesser god). The status of each deity may be altered up or down accordingly. Although not enough to free Tharizdun, this may cause enough of a small rift within his place of confinement to allow his clerical followers to gain access to spells.

Does anyone know if WotC will have a conversion table for 3.5e to 4e?

Disclaimer: This is just a hypothetical; I will most likely stay with 3.5. I do not want to have to force a change, I want to set the stage and let the players make their mark. If it changes this drastically, it would not be Greyhawk.
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Telemachus wrote:
Does anyone know if WotC will have a conversion table for 3.5e to 4e?


WOTC announced pretty much right away that no conversion information would be possible. The reccommended everyone start new characters and campaigns because any previous edition would be mathmatically to different for a successful conversion.
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Cebrion
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is proably a bit premature Mikel, seeing as no rules have yet been released in a form that somebody could even participate in anything like this. Give it another 3 months or so and the responses might be better.
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MikelAmroni
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cebrion: Maybe, but I was more aiming at the regulars on the 4E board, who don't need the specifics. I figure if we start a discussion on it now, then it will be easier to integrate both their ideas and ours. We know there are Dragonborn. We know there are Tieflings. We know both used to be empires (or perhaps still are, but are in ruins). We know we want to make sure Greyhawk's feel is maintained. We're pretty much there on the broad strokes we need to include.

Telemachus: A very good idea. I'm not sure I would use it. I'm not fond of rewriting existing worlds. If I like a world, I like all of it together, not one part of it. If I only like a part of it, then I will only use part of it.

I like you will likely be staying with 3.5 for Greyhawk. When Ebberon upgrades, so will I. Truthfully, I will likely be using the Paizo Pathfinder rules upgrades with Greyhawk. But I wanted to include something 4E DMs could grab as a ready made Greyhawk setting that screamed both "I am Greyhawk!" and "I am D&D and 4E!" If we don't succeed, so be it, but its still my goal.

Eileen: That's what I was looking for. I'm not saying I like everyone of your ideas (okay, I like most of them) but mostly I wanted to spark some conversation on the idea.

I agree that the exact placement of the village/town need not be terribly important. Rather I would like to have something that could be grafted into any setting with some suggestions on where it could be. Greyhawk is stereotypical D&D. I see no reason to change that. Yes it has a place in Greyhawk. Yes we have some suggestion on location, but all you really need is a few key terrain features, and the room to place it.

I also agree with your gnome and eladrin solutions.

Quote:
If we were to go with the 4th edition PH version of tieflings and dragonborn and perhaps modify it a bit, I would venture to go with saying that significant issues still are in progress and that the two races have beaten each other down to a stalemate. What exists now is sort of a gurilla warfare effect.


Here I differ. I think the idea of the fallen empires/kingdoms is important to the overall storyline. I'm okay with maybe a few hidden enclaves of strength (ala the Scarlet Brotherhood), but overall those kingdoms are dead and gone. This way PCs can play tieflings and Dragonborn without everyone remembering why they hate those races. Some would, especially longer lived races, but not all would.

I like the orc kingdom in ruins idea. I think the tieflings are the ones who enslaved them. I think the Dragonborn destroyed the kingdom though. The tieflings were hardly innocent, but were more interested in getting slaves than destroying a rival. Of course it also opens up a style of orc I created once in a home brew game of mine. I wanted something like the uruk-hai of Middle Earth, so I created the "High Orcs," evil creatures more disciplined than hobgoblins nearly as smart as humans. I used stats for a fiendish planetouched orc, and had a scary background enemy for my game. I could see an elite shocktroop unit that survived the ancient wars and became its own isolated force. Maybe they are uniting the goblinoids...

I agree with the different dieties. What about a Baklunish society with heavy Oeridian influences? No Suel, no Flan, just those other two races. And we might introduce another race, something distinctly african or asian in nature? Just a thought.

I love the overlord idea. In the capital city he rules, and his vassal rules the starting village. On WOTC's site, they have a map of mystery that caught my eye a few months back. Its a mining town on a river. I think it was actually named Delver's Dale. I was using it as a basis for a town set in my friend's world, but we might be able to use it here. Controlling significant silver and iron deposits, it would be important enough to make sure it was controlled and protected, but not so vital as to require a significant amount of settlement nearby. Farmlands further down the river provide what food can't be grown or found nearby.

I'm not wholly crazy about the barter idea, although the use of money might be minimized by lines of credit backed by the Overlord (who directly controls all major sources of money). Getting vouchers takes some doing, but also means that there is less actual cash in the setting, and any large influxes of it draw attention. Not always bad attention, but still. Money would be used for minor purchases, but purchasing land, livestock, or equipment is usually done by voucher. Of course this leads to all other sorts of adventure ideas from simple money train robberies to forgeries. It may be too much, and I would say leave it out if it were, but its sounds kinda cool (and sorta like the old west in a way). But it may be too non-greyhawk, and I don't want to get away from that.

anyway, more later.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:54 am    Post subject: Re: An idea for 4E in Greyhawk Reply with quote

MikelAmroni wrote:

Questions to answer:
1. Where will we place the village/small town?

I started at Kendall Keep in the Yeomanry. It borders a hostile brigand nation (Sea Princes who are a vassal of the Scarlet Brotherhood), Sterich (Giantland), and the Hellsfurnaces. Also, the Yeomanry contains the Passage of Slerotin - a tunnel to more adventure Wink

Quote:
2. What races are there?

All of them. I see no reason to drop gnomes. They're in the Monster Manual along with plenty more. I like the new treatment gnomes received. Now they seem less of an embarrassing rendezvous between a dwarf and a halfling. Gnomes are important to GH lore. I chose the Yeomanry because the Gnomish hill fighters are reputable skirmishers (especially in 4e) according to the fluff in Against the Giants. There are several hilly areas on the borders of the Yeomanry that contain Gnomes, which It allows me to keep them as an integral part of GH and D&D.

Quote:
3. What to do about the two new races?

Tieflings - I made Tieflings heirs to the Malachite Throne. The history of the Great Kingdom and its ruling houses is long connected with infernal machinations. Why not take it a step further? I changed the Scorpion Curse in the Bright Desert to a "Blood Curse" of Tieflings. Besides, their innate resistance to fire makes them the perfect desert creature. I changed the fluff of Ull and Keoland to contain a fallen empire of Tieflings. When Rary was studying within the Dark Tower where he succumbs to madness (mechanics, he multiclasses as a Star Pact Warlock and experiences a Lovecraftian insanity).

Dragonborn - Nomadic mercenaries and warriors. I felt their impact might be too great if I gave them an entire nation. The players love them. The easiest way to put them in the Flanaess was to make them like the Rhenee, except as warriors. It allows Dragonborn to be ubiquitous but leave a small footprint in terms of rearranging the fluff. In other words, I don't have to.

Quote:
4. The Eladrin.

Grey Elves. Their stat bonuses are the same as Grey Elves. Just make them Grey Elves. It's simple.

Quote:
5. The half-orc question is pretty simple - we don't include orcs in the region.

I've never really liked the idea of half-orcs, but they still have a special place in GH. One of my first 1e characters was a half-orc assassin named Thoro. I played him for years. What intrigued me was the story elements that can be tied to a character's background (yes, I was growing up Embarassed ). Half-Orcs can use the Human template or Orc template. Most players I know like playing Orcs more than 1/2 orcs because the tension in the backstory is often richer. One of my players is an Orc Fighter who is also a headhunter - he eats the monsters he kills. And the PCs that die Laughing

Quote:
6. With races out of the way, we move on to the village/town itself.

I used the Yeomanry because it's a democracy - think Greece. All of the players are familiar with Frank Miller's 300 so it was an easy analog. The Keep itself is a safehaven in a hostile border. The citizen soldiers are off fighting Giants and the Keep was just sieged two weeks ago by a goblin army. The advantage of the Keep is it exists in Greyhawk as is. I had to change very little (I added the siege fluff to escalate the danger). The Keep is a retirement home, of sorts, for adventurers. This allows for a motley religious representation, cultural and racial diversity.

Quote:
7. What does the town do to trade?
Hmm... Kendall Keep is a castle (keep is a bit modest) to guard the southeast border of the Yeomanry. They're part time artisans but mainly their "trade" is safety. Overpriced inns, food and drink. They're the safehaven in a hostile world. They take in caravans, safeguard them, and charge a hefty amount. The PCs can get a "break" after they start doing favors (quest rewards anyone Wink ).

Quote:
8. What are the basic outlines of the nearby towns.

Kendall Keep is governed by an elected official. His a crippled man. His health is failing. There are no civilized towns nearby. The roads are dangerous. The Keep is surrounded by swamp and forests. Armies cannot safely navigate the forests or swamps, which is why the Keep exists. It's nestled on the only solid ground in the southeast. The Keep serves as a roadblock to any encroaching forces from the Hold of Sea Princes.

Quote:
9. What adventure sites are nearby?

hehehe. The Caves of Chaos Wink

There's also the Passage of Slerotin (Sea of Dust, Descend to the Depths of the Earth), Sterich and Geoff (Against the Giants), and Hold of Sea Princes (recently a converted vassal of the Scarlet Brotherhood). Each provides the characters with a variety of choices - dungeon crawling, wilderness, hack-n-slash, story driven, and political.
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MikelAmroni
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Joined: Nov 14, 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post AtomicPope!

When I originally posted this, we had little to no info on what would and would not be included, and no idea of the coverage the MM would give. Thankfully it managed to cover quite a bit.

I'm personally going to run the new adventure path in Dungeon, which is set in Sterich, and don't really have to worry. I'm not changing anything for the tieflings or dragonborn, as far as greyhawk is concerned. They are rare happenings and wanderers. I don't plan on coming up with anything unless the path runs through some tiefling or dragonborn ruins, in which case I'll just rename them into something else. I've already had to repurpose one of the factions in the adventure into something more palatable (an evil cult version of what they give). In my head I see the tiefling and dragonbon coming from beyond the celestial empire. Although I can see an arguement for the great kingdom remanents being tieflings.

But then again, I've had goliaths and whisper gnomes and cat folk in my greyhawk since I saw those races. I know goliath are getting included very soon, and gnomes are getting some love too.
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AtomicPope
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Joined: Jan 01, 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do have the advantage of running a campaign while the books are released Laughing

At first I wanted to keep Tieflings and Dragonborn in the background but the players were more interested than I was. We were going to have two Dragonborn and no Tieflings but one player changed at the last second so we have one each. He is the better roleplayer so I'll give him the political plot hooks. As a DM I don't want to exclude any players. My choice to include the two new races was to support my players.

When I heard the concept of Points of Light I wasn't nearly as startled as so many others. I don't think anything in Greyhawk should be considered a "safe bet." The jewel of the Flanaess is the City of Thieves. The greatest empire in the known world is infernally tainted. And the land of paladins and righteousness was wiped out by the hordes of Iuz. To me, it sounds like Greyhawk has been points of light since day one and continued in that direction ever since.

I'm not familiar with the Dungeon adventure path. However, I am very familiar with the 1e & 2e adventure paths Wink It's surprisingly easy to convert adventures from 1e and 2e over to 4e.

Does the Dungeon Path meet your expectations?
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MikelAmroni
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Joined: Nov 14, 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AtomicPope wrote:
When I heard the concept of Points of Light I wasn't nearly as startled as so many others. I don't think anything in Greyhawk should be considered a "safe bet." The jewel of the Flanaess is the City of Thieves. The greatest empire in the known world is infernally tainted. And the land of paladins and righteousness was wiped out by the hordes of Iuz. To me, it sounds like Greyhawk has been points of light since day one and continued in that direction ever since.


I'll admit my first reaction to the points of light bit is that Greyhawk has always been described to me as a Points of light setting. The person who introed me to Greyhawk, Anced Math, once made a statement that travelling in Greyhawk is a long and arduous prospect that you don't have any guarantees you will survive. In 3.0/3.5 this never made sense to me, but the focus in 4E makes it not only possible, but plausible. Of course he (and I) managed to run games like this in 3.x, and had no issues, but still.

AtomicPope wrote:
I'm not familiar with the Dungeon adventure path. However, I am very familiar with the 1e & 2e adventure paths Wink It's surprisingly easy to convert adventures from 1e and 2e over to 4e.
Does the Dungeon Path meet your expectations?


The dungeon path so far does indeed meet my expectations. Its available on Wizards in dungeon, and for now is still free. Its an adventure path along the lines of Shackled City, Age of Worms, and the Island one. It will take you from 1 to 30 over 18 adventures (including a few sidetreks to make sure you stay on path). I like it because it is the sequel to the Red Hand of Doom, possibly one of my favorite adventures since Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and the Lost Caverns.

I thought about the conversion of 1E and 2E adventures, and wondered if indeed they would be easier to convert than 3.x adventures (3.x adventures are always more "stuff" intense than earlier editions).
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