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    World of Greyhawk sourcebooks
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    Novice

    Joined: Sep 01, 2004
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    Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:58 am  
    World of Greyhawk sourcebooks

    howdy all. long time lurker looking for some help or information :)

    i read these boards frequently, due to my love of the Greyhawk world (wouldnt consider myself a very knowledgeable user of it though) i have been wanting to get as much information about it as i can. i have pretty much every sourcebook or module that is ever suggested when someone asks for this type of information. but this is my question.....

    why doesnt the World of Greyhawk have its own sourcebooks like the Forgotten Realms?? and i understand "becuz WOTC hasnt made them. duh!!" so please dont say anything like that.

    i was going over each and every website that was set up for the RPGA, and i gotta say, with very few exceptions, those websites are a jumbled mess. some havent been updated for 3+ years, some dont have any information whatsoever that you cant already get from another sourcebook, etc.

    does anyone know where i could find the same type of information about Greyhawks' various lands in the same format as the FR sourcebooks??

    and if they dont exist, how about we work on em!!!!! would be awesome to have each areas' information gathered in one place and in a common format. maybe something like this:

    1) general overview- maps, history, laws/nobility, census-type stuff, etc. put all the FLUFF first :)

    2) common races- make note of any specific racial changes for area
    3) common classes- have things like what classes are common, forbidden, substitution levels, prestige classes etc
    4) skills- charts of what info specific knowledge checks would yield, any specific or nonstandard uses of skills for the area, etc
    5) feats- list the regional feats, what feats are common for each area, new feats available to the area, etc
    6) equipment- what items are common or specific to the area. include magical items here as well- if a specific type of item is available here, etc.
    7) spells- list common spells, unique spells, etc
    8) religions- list the various religions worshipped in the area, starting with the deity(ies) that dominate the area. also note the religions that are reviled and such
    9) monsters- nuff' said

    thats just a start- maybe we could work on the format and such, but just some ideas. if this info doesnt already exist in this type of format, that is :)

    and before someone mentions it- the Greyhawk WIKI linked on the home page of this site is broken
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:47 am  

    What you have suggested is already being done. Search around a bit more(here and elsewhere) and you may find the info you seek. Google, as always, is your friend in this, as it will often find very specific things for you. You might want to check out the Oerth Journal and other e-zines too.

    There is quite a bit of content on CANONFIRE! that is currently not as easy to locate as it could be. Plans are underway to fix this(and a few other things). We want to ROCK Greyhawk! Cool

    EDIT:

    obi_wan_shinobi wrote:
    howdy all. long time lurker looking for some help or information :)

    I read these boards frequently, due to my love of the Greyhawk world (wouldnt consider myself a very knowledgeable user of it though) i have been wanting to get as much information about it as i can. i have pretty much every sourcebook or module that is ever suggested when someone asks for this type of information. but this is my question.....

    why doesnt the World of Greyhawk have its own sourcebooks like the Forgotten Realms?? and i understand "becuz WOTC hasnt made them. duh!!" so please dont say anything like that.


    Greyhawk does have a campaign sourcebook. It is called the “Living Greyhawk Gazetteer”. It is the most up-to-date compilation at this point in time. You say you have pretty much every sourcebook, but maybe you don’t have this one. It contains most of the information you are asking about.

    obi_wan_shinobi wrote:
    i was going over each and every website that was set up for the RPGA, and i gotta say, with very few exceptions, those websites are a jumbled mess. some havent been updated for 3+ years, some dont have any information whatsoever that you cant already get from another sourcebook, etc.


    I feel your pain there. Some of the Living Greyhawk sites are amazing; some of them truly lackluster, or just plain dead.

    obi_wan_shinobi wrote:
    does anyone know where i could find the same type of information about Greyhawks' various lands in the same format as the FR sourcebooks??


    Once again, the “Living Greyhawk Gazetteer” is your main source, if you don’t already have it.

    obi_wan_shinobi wrote:
    and if they dont exist, how about we work on em!!!!! would be awesome to have each areas' information gathered in one place and in a common format. maybe something like this:


    The reason you won't see a complete sourcebook made by fans and put out on the internet is this little thing called "copyright infringement". It would simply draw too much attention. Besides, why would anybody want to put out a Greyhawk campaign sourcebook in the Forgotten Realms format? Surely it would be put in the Greyhawk format! Happy

    obi_wan_shinobi wrote:
    and before someone mentions it- the Greyhawk WIKI linked on the home page of this site is broken


    Thanks for the heads up.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:37 am; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:39 am  

    I'm afraid there simply aren't any book-sized publications out there, and haven't been since the days of 2e.

    Your best bet for new material is either here or in the Oerth Journal.

    Projects here are always underway, but you're right - they're sometimes difficult to find. Fortunately, we're told the website is soon to receive a makeover that should make things a bit easier.

    Feel free to start your own projects. I should warn you, though, that finding reliable collaborators is not always easy. Most projects die an early death since many on these boards already have their own pet projects and preferred areas of interest. Also, most of us work and have families, and very few are designers. But do not lose hope! Though it's pretty hard to drum up interest in new projects around here, articles are constantly being written, and you're more than welcome to add your own to the mix.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 27, 2007
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    Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:34 pm  

    As someone who has just decided to "buy into" third edition in a big way, I'd love to see Living Greyhawk material consolodated into a series of 3rd edition (conversion) documents (one per meta-region).

    obi_wan_shinobi wrote:
    and before someone mentions it- the Greyhawk WIKI linked on the home page of this site is broken


    The Greyhawk Wiki is working now. As far as I know it isn't supposed to be a D&D tool. I believe it is an encyclopedia of canon material. That will be very useful to anyone writing GH material, as it will allow them to avoid continuity errors, but it won't be good for adding new stuff. (Fan created content, would need a second wiki.)

    Cebrion wrote:
    What you have suggested is already being done. Search around a bit more(here and elsewhere) and you may find the info you seek. Google, as always, is your friend in this, as it will often find very specific things for you. You might want to check out the Oerth Journal and other e-zines too.


    Maybe a good starting point would be to start a thread about a certain element of GH lore (for example an alphabetical list of all GH monsters) and then start to add in links to places where 3e/3.5e information can be found.

    This list could be put into the first post (or the first several posts if it is a long list). A discussion about the topic could follow (or could be put into a separate thread to keep clutter out of the "information" thread. Someone would need to act as caretake for the thread. They wouldn't need to be a moderator, but would need to be a regular poster, who checks back and updates the posts containing the information.

    Several threads could collectively turn into a 3e index. People like obi_wan_shinobi would be able to find existing information and anyone who wants to write new stuff (or convert 2e or 1e stuff) could work out what needs to be done.

    Cebrion wrote:
    There is quite a bit of content on CANONFIRE! that is currently not as easy to locate as it could be. Plans are underway to fix this(and a few other things). We want to ROCK Greyhawk! Cool


    I think that you will rock Greyhawk. In fact with 4e D&D being a mostly different animal, I think that a lot more focus will go onto 3e Greyhawk (and earlier editions of Greyhawk). I think this is the best possible time to start 3e projects.

    I'd say something like the index idea I mentioned above, would be a good place to start. It wouldn't bring things together, but it would allow a large number of GMs to cut out most of the Google research phase. Essentially it would be a shopping list that lets a GM create his/her own GHCS handbook.

    Cebrion wrote:
    Greyhawk does have a campaign sourcebook. It is called the “Living Greyhawk Gazetteer”. It is the most up-to-date compilation at this point in time. You say you have pretty much every sourcebook, but maybe you don’t have this one. It contains most of the information you are asking about.


    I think a lot of people don't realise that (I know I only found out recently). I used to think it was only good for Living Greyhawk players. I'm struggling to source a copy of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer at the moment. (I've seen reviews saying that it and the D&D Gazetteer are not very good, but I can live with LGG if it is the best thing around.)

    Cebrion wrote:
    obi_wan_shinobi wrote:
    i was going over each and every website that was set up for the RPGA, and i gotta say, with very few exceptions, those websites are a jumbled mess. some havent been updated for 3+ years, some dont have any information whatsoever that you cant already get from another sourcebook, etc.


    I feel your pain there. Some of the Living Greyhawk sites are amazing; some of them truly lackluster, or just plain dead.


    I've been collecting D&D links for a number of years and was really annoyed when spammers started to grab disused URLs of D&D websites (including a big bunch of Living Greyhawk websites) to put up fake search engines.

    Like Cebrion I have been massively impressed by some of these websites. Strictly speaking they are aimed at LG players in specific regions, but some of these websites go out of their way to make stuff that works for D&D players as well as people from other LG regions.

    I forget which specific regions these were, but two that stood out were a region who were hosting a database for several nearby LG region players and a non-English region that were kind enough to convert a lot of their stuff into English.

    So rather than moan about the less useful regions, I'd suggest working out which are the most active, most helpful regions. You could then ask them to help work on a project to build a 3.5 D&D sourcebook PDF for their region (or even one for their metaregion).

    Covering Oerth is a massive task, but covering one region is a much easier task. And covering an entire metaregion is something that is a more realistic target for a GH3e project.

    You could for example build up a Sheldomar Valley Netbook by creating 6 region specific chapters (Bissel, Grand Dutchy of Geoff, Gran March, Kingdom of Keoland, Principality of Ulek and Yeomanry) and then maybe adding one or two chapters that cover the entire metaregion (races of Sheldomar, Sheldomar feats, Sheldomar PrCs, Monsters of Sheldomar).

    This sort of thing could easily be modular and could either be done in private by LG region members or in public in a series of forum threads (or a combination of both). Avoiding copyright problems would obviously be important, but there is nothing to stop a book giving a list of useful PrCs from WotC sourcebooks alongside a few new ones based on LG metaorganisations.

    Some of the LG regions are in foreign languages, so we would need people of several nationalities onboard to get them sorted out.

    I'd say start with whatever is easy to do. If people see something happening they will be more likely to join in. And I would love to see Canonfire! have a PDF netbook that could compete for next year's ENnie awards!

    However, both you (obi_wan_shinobi) and I are newbies. Making a big call for a massive GH project isn't something that is going to be taken seriously when it comes from somone like us who hasn't got a track record. You need to proove that you are committed to something like this (and I would need to proove it too). Doing a bit of reserch and making the sort of list that I mentioned (or doing something else that aids in the creation of this sort of project) will go a long way to building up faith in a GHCS megaproject.

    (Breaking it down into small modules that can be done in a realistic timeline will also help get individual bits done. You are basically asking people to create the same amount of content as the entire FRCS product line or the DLCS product line in their spare time and for zero pay. It isn't possible in one go. It needs to be something that can be done in bits.)

    Cebrion wrote:
    obi_wan_shinobi wrote:
    does anyone know where i could find the same type of information about Greyhawks' various lands in the same format as the FR sourcebooks??


    Once again, the “Living Greyhawk Gazetteer” is your main source, if you don’t already have it.


    I think a lot of people are ignorant about this product (like I was). I really think that it would be useful to have a sticky in this forum that lists Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and all the other 3rd edition products that will help a GM run a 3e/3.5e campaign.

    Cebrion wrote:
    obi_wan_shinobi wrote:
    and if they dont exist, how about we work on em!!!!! would be awesome to have each areas' information gathered in one place and in a common format. maybe something like this:


    The reason you won't see a complete sourcebook made by fans and put out on the internet is this little thing called "copyright infringement". It would simply draw too much attention. Besides, why would anybody want to put out a Greyhawk campaign sourcebook in the Forgotten Realms format? Surely it would be put in the Greyhawk format! Happy


    I own both Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and Dragonlance Campaign Setting. They both have positive points, but their formats are stacked towards Toril and Krynn (more specifically Faerun and Ansalon). I would have loved to have seen a Greyhawk Campaign Setting. (I would have a copy on my shelf today if the book existed.) But the fact is that GHCS didn't get made.

    Maybe a better approach would be to compare FRCS/DLCS to LGG and see what the difference in content is. How much stuff is actually missing from LGG?

    What about adding the Living Greyhawk Campaign Sourcebook, Bright Sands Sourcebook and Living Greyhawk Deities into the mix? They provide more stuff that a GM can build GHCS with. Better still they are free. Here are the links:
    http://www.wizards.com/rpga/downloads/LGBBSS_v1-0.zip
    http://www.wizards.com/rpga/downloads/LG_595CY_Conversion.zip
    http://www.wizards.com/rpga/downloads/LGCS_596.zip
    http://www.wizards.com/rpga/downloads/LGCS_597.zip
    http://www.wizards.com/rpga/downloads/LG_Deities.zip

    Instead of replicating this work, you could index it and have fairly short chapters that point people at the correct GH/LG source.

    But there would be some new stuff to do.

    For example FRCS and DLCS give players a number of races. Does LGG do the same thing? Does one of the LG downloads do the same thing? Can you find missing GH races (or missing GH playable monster races) on Canonfire!, in Oerth Journal or in the Creature Catalogue? A "chapter" that combines a table of sources of races alongside a few additional races would be something I'd love to see.

    (And if the "chapters" are published one at a time, the netbook wouldn't need to be finished before people could start to use it. People could playtest chapters and make improvements. When all the chapters were done and tested they could be recompiled into a larger netbook.)

    Oerth is too big a place to document instantly, so a summarised description of the other metaregions (similar the Beyond Faerun section of FRCS on pages 230-231) would be a good starting target. I would argue keeping things general, or aiming them at the City of Greyhawk and the Bright Sands region. I think that would be a lot easier to manage.
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    Last edited by bigmac on Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:53 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    I'm afraid there simply aren't any book-sized publications out there, and haven't been since the days of 2e.

    Your best bet for new material is either here or in the Oerth Journal.


    There is a Greyhawk Players Guide. It is only a Savage Tide Player's Guide, so is limited to Sasserine. But it is a commercial PDF set on the World of Greyhawk. Maybe it could serve as a template for other Greyhawk cities, regions and metaregions.
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:13 pm  

    A bit of clarification for you on the D&D Gazetteer bigmac(and anybody else):

    The D&D Gazetteer(which does include a map of the Flanaess) is for all intents and purposes a player's version of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. It is a truncated version of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and provides only a brief overview of Greyhawk. It is a perfect primer for players new to Greyhawk, while the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer with its more detailed information is aimed more at DMs.

    The D&D Gazetteer is not a bad product at all. It is jut not as complete as the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. This seems to have been done by design.
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    Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:07 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    The D&D Gazetteer(which does include a map of the Flanaess) is for all intents and purposes a player's version of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. It is a truncated version of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and provides only a brief overview of Greyhawk. It is a perfect primer for players new to Greyhawk, while the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer with its more detailed information is aimed more at DMs.

    The D&D Gazetteer is not a bad product at all. It is jut not as complete as the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. This seems to have been done by design.


    Thanks for the clarification. I'm assuming from this that if I buy Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, I won't be missing anything that is in D&D Gazetteer. So I'm only going to buy LGG.
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