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    gary and his group had lucky dices?
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    Adept Greytalker

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    From: brazil

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    Sat May 17, 2008 4:03 pm  
    gary and his group had lucky dices?

    i was reading Oerth Journal #7, and wondered about garys party stats:

    robilar had Str: 18/78, Int: 11, Wis: 16, Dex: 16, Con: 18, Chr:
    16; and i remember reading mordy and others (not TSR npc, but as characters) and they had same imppressive stats.

    they didnt use 3d6 in order, i imagine.

    am i too out of luck , as i cant get this stats with 4d6 discard lowest, or they used other ways to get this, like magical improvment and so?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat May 17, 2008 6:31 pm  

    There was lots of magic that could improve statistics. For instance, back in 1e, a wish spell could improve a statistic to 16, and from then on by 10% per wish(so it took 10 wished to get a statistic from 16 to a 17, and so on). The characters could also read one or more of the various magical books to gain a point in a statistic, or even a level PLUS a point in a statistic. Then there were a variety of other things that gave points to statistics, such as drinking from the *right* magical pool, eating the *right* fruit from a magical tree, etc.

    So yes, there were lots of things that could(and did) increase the statistics of the characters in Gary's and Rob's campaign. I'm sure that those who actually played in the camapign can give more specific examples.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Sat May 17, 2008 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat May 17, 2008 7:53 pm  

    I don't know about the Oerth Journal article, but one thing to keep in mind about older sources of information on the PC based characters in Greyhawk: Gygax refused to give anyone the stats for them as they were still in use in his campaign. So the stats in books like The Rogues' Gallery were made up from scratch by the authors, either from thin air or from gossip about the characters. Sometimes even the classes and such were wrong, much less the levels and statistics.

    So I doubt those figures you have seen are worth comparing to the rules themselves. The three 16s for Robilar does sound suspiciously like several wishes, though. :P
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat May 17, 2008 8:24 pm  

    I agree with the above. In addition, we don't even know what method they used to roll up the characters with. Just because a method was presented in the 1st edition DMG doesn't mean these characters were rolled up using one of them. It is quite possible that the various methods (any of them for that matter) were develeped after these famous characters were created.
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Sat May 17, 2008 9:12 pm  

    Nah, I bet they just cheated. ;-P
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat May 17, 2008 9:21 pm  

    IIRC; many ways to increase stats - all of the above plus I vaguely recall an adventure - gain a stat point randomly for sleeping under a special tree. Articles of clothing; weapons and armour. Back then they were just trying a little of everything.

    However it is curious that these defenders of roleplaying - that emphasized in every edition that stats were not important per say; for their personal PCs, they all did more then a little bulking up.

    Maybe they didn't want a bunch of characters like their own running around ruining the gameworld or after awhile, like a kid on an all candy diet they just got sick and tired of high stats. Gary and Co. mention pretty often how much more fun it is to play a character with low stats.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun May 18, 2008 11:16 am  

    Per Gary, they did use 3d6 in the early days, but they rolled up numerous sets of stats, and then picked the best.
    Also, as others have stated, there are numerous ways to have ability scores increased from 1st level to circa 15th.
    Later they switched to 4d6, drop lowest.

    Scott
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon May 19, 2008 2:25 am  

    Crag wrote:
    Gary and Co. mention pretty often how much more fun it is to play a character with low stats.


    To the contrary, Gary set the bar fairly high in the AD&D® Players Handbook, suggesting that a PC should have at least two scores of 15+ to even be viable.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon May 19, 2008 2:57 am  

    By the way, the stats for Robilar in the Rogues Gallery are correct. It was Gary and Ernie that didn't provide their actual character info, but the authors did play in the same campaigns as the PCs detailed and they were familiar with the characters, so the stats are pretty close.

    Scott
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon May 19, 2008 3:39 am  

    Just seconding what DMP said, Gary was a proponent of heroic PCs in the mold of the larger than life pulp characters he was such a fan of. The PH text David cites reveals Gary’s thoughts on this. This philosophy didn’t change in the systems Gary developed after D&D. Gary and Co. were definitely roll players first and role players second.

    Scott
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon May 19, 2008 7:05 am  

    Wishes and other means (books, adventure locations, etc.) provided the only means (other than aging) of increasing attributes. Without magical augmentation, a player had those stats permanently (again unless changed through age or permanent ability drain via monster special attacks).

    I do recall that characters in several classes needed fairly high attributes. For example a Paladin had to have a minimum of 17 for charisma an a Monk needed a 15 in strength, dexterity, and wisdom and an 11 in constitution. In addition to this, there were no attribute gains every 4 levels in 1e AD&D, so without the ability to augment ability scores magically, unless spellcasters rolled high on spell related attributes, they would be barred from learning the higher level spells as you progressed. I think the point from a role playing standpoint was that only persons well above average would even attempt a life of adventuring let alone be successful at it.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon May 19, 2008 7:25 am  

    ScottG wrote:
    By the way, the stats for Robilar in the Rogues Gallery are correct.


    Although Rob later stated that Robilar was in fact 19th level, and had 117HP, no? Can't recall where I read that, but I think it was one of the OJ.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon May 19, 2008 7:50 am  

    Robilar made it to 19th level. I'm sure that included several years of adventuring after the Rogues Gallery was published.
    Robilar, like several of the RG characters, was a combination of OD&D and AD&D stats. OD&D characters used different HD than AD&D characters did. Rob never re-rolled the OD&D HD for HPs.
    I did for the Robilar NPC in my campaign though.

    Scott
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon May 19, 2008 7:54 am  

    Amalric wrote:
    ScottG wrote:
    By the way, the stats for Robilar in the Rogues Gallery are correct.


    Although Rob later stated that Robilar was in fact 19th level, and had 117HP, no? Can't recall where I read that, but I think it was one of the OJ.


    yes, its on OJ&:

    Lord Robilar: "The Master of Dragons"
    Played By: Robert J. Kuntz (created in 1972)

    Class/Level: Fighter/19th level

    Abilities: Str: 18/78, Int: 11, Wis: 16, Dex: 16, Con: 18, Chr:
    16, hp: 117

    Race: Oeridian

    Alignment: Lawful Evil

    Items: Ring of spell turning, girdle of storm giant strength,
    +3 longsword, +3 plate mail, +3 shield, +1 bow, flying
    carpet, ring of invisibility, and a ring of regeneration (bought
    from a cleric, played by Don Arndt, who accidentally
    stumbled into Robilar's castle during an outdoor adventure).[/b]
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon May 19, 2008 12:37 pm  

    Could be survival of the fittest. All of the average or below average stat characters were quickly killed off and only the above average stat characters survived to become famous. Smile
    CF Admin

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    Mon May 19, 2008 8:53 pm  
    3rd Ed. Robilar

    rossik wrote:
    Lord Robilar: "The Master of Dragons"
    Played By: Robert J. Kuntz (created in 1972)
    Class/Level: Fighter/19th level
    Abilities: Str: 18/78, Int: 11, Wis: 16, Dex: 16, Con: 18, Chr: 16, hp: 117

    Just for the sake of comparison, below are Lord Robilar's stats for 3rd edition. I post him since he is the example being used in this discussion and to see how this character has not changed much in latter game editions.

    Lord Robilar: fighter 24; 228 hps (July 2002)
    Str 27, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 16
    The only stat boosting item he is listed with is a belt of giant strength +6.

    As an editorial comment, the 3rd Edition Robilar is a poor build. A single-class fighter is almost always the weakest person in a party at about 7th-level and beyond.

    Don (Greyson)
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    From: brazil

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    Tue May 20, 2008 9:39 am  
    Re: 3rd Ed. Robilar

    Greyson wrote:
    rossik wrote:
    Lord Robilar: "The Master of Dragons"
    Played By: Robert J. Kuntz (created in 1972)
    Class/Level: Fighter/19th level
    Abilities: Str: 18/78, Int: 11, Wis: 16, Dex: 16, Con: 18, Chr: 16, hp: 117

    Just for the sake of comparison, below are Lord Robilar's stats for 3rd edition. I post him since he is the example being used in this discussion and to see how this character has not changed much in latter game editions.

    Lord Robilar: fighter 24; 228 hps (July 2002)
    Str 27, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 16
    The only stat boosting item he is listed with is a belt of giant strength +6.

    As an editorial comment, the 3rd Edition Robilar is a poor build. A single-class fighter is almost always the weakest person in a party at about 7th-level and beyond.

    Don (Greyson)
    Nyrond Triad


    i dont get the st 27.
    the +6 st from the belt makes him st 24, no?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue May 20, 2008 9:43 am  
    Re: 3rd Ed. Robilar

    rossik wrote:
    Greyson wrote:
    rossik wrote:
    Lord Robilar: "The Master of Dragons"
    Played By: Robert J. Kuntz (created in 1972)
    Class/Level: Fighter/19th level
    Abilities: Str: 18/78, Int: 11, Wis: 16, Dex: 16, Con: 18, Chr: 16, hp: 117

    Just for the sake of comparison, below are Lord Robilar's stats for 3rd edition. I post him since he is the example being used in this discussion and to see how this character has not changed much in latter game editions.

    Lord Robilar: fighter 24; 228 hps (July 2002)
    Str 27, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 16
    The only stat boosting item he is listed with is a belt of giant strength +6.

    As an editorial comment, the 3rd Edition Robilar is a poor build. A single-class fighter is almost always the weakest person in a party at about 7th-level and beyond.

    Don (Greyson)
    Nyrond Triad


    i dont get the st 27.
    the +6 st from the belt makes him st 24, no?


    A 24 is easy enough to acquire in 3.x edition. If he had an 18 str, and but all his stat bonuses (1 every 4 levels) in str, that would cut it. Not to mention the myriad stat pumping books, tomes, pools, spells, etc.
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    Michael Erin Sandar Bard of Midwood
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    Tue May 20, 2008 10:10 am  

    MichaelSandar appears to have it pegged exactly. Considering all of the other stats are the same, the stat increase/4 levels since Robilar's RG level all going to Str would explain it. In that case, it should probably be higher. Nine levels of very high level gaming and not one additional stat buffing magic?

    Scott
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    Wed May 21, 2008 5:19 am  

    Well it looks like *someone* looked at the calendar, saw it was CY(insert number), and figured ~ "Well, if Robilar was 15th (or 19th) level back then, in the interveing years he would have climbed to..." (quick check on calculator) "..24th level! Factor in his girdle of storm giant strength to 3rd edition rules, forget about the other items, and ~ voila!"

    Looks like he's spent the intervening years greasing Bright Desert tribesemen...a whole LOT of them, apparently. Genocide, anyone? Wink
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