Yes they do, but it's not exactly a public appearance, and it's not like Iuz starts killing the PCs and St. Cuthbert starts killing Iuz's minions. They show up, wave their magic wands so to speak, and then take their disagreement "elsewhere". That's pretty low key. Zuggtmoy isn't a deity either, and neither is she choosing to manifest on the Prime- she's imprisoned. This is a lot different than deites galavanting around Greyhawk proper on a whim. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Ceb, what you said is pretty close to my understanding. Demon princess Zug is worshipped, IIRC, and both St. C and Iuz worked their way up and keep a hand in the game. IMO, T1-4 is a great example of the appropriate level of gods in the house. _________________ Plar of Poofy Pants
Anything Wotc produces for 4e that involves Greyhawk but that uses the 4e cosmology is not immediately canon unless and until Wotc reconciles/explains how the 1e/2e/3e cosmology/continuity changed to the 4e cosmology/continuity; otherwise what Wotc produces is a faux/doppleganger/alternate multiverse/mirror-mirror Greyhawk - at best.
GVD, all they have to do is say "that's the way it's always really been, the GH 'sages' just misinterpreted it." That is, if they address the changes at all.
If WotC, the owners of the IP, publish it, then it is canon, whether we, who have continued GH support for so long, like it or not; or whether we, individually or en masse, use it in our games or not.
It's their toybox, and they get to arrange the 'official' version as they like. That's not to say we have to use it that way, but every deviation from WotC 'canon' is another thing we'll have to explain away to any new players who join our games.
If the owners of the IP hadn't continued timelines for the World of Greyhawk when the put out new material or editions, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But they have done so when moving from each edition until now.
DragonLance for example had the first three modules redone for 2nd Edition rules so I think if they had kept putting out the the same three modules for 3rd Edition and then 4th Edition, no one would bat an eye. But do this to Greyhawk and all the 'Hawkers that have been following timelines for decades are going to try to figure out how to reconcile 4th Edition products within their games while new players won't have any such problem.
St. Cuthbert, p. 66 "When on the Prime Material Plane he will sometimes appear as a manure-covered yokel, a brown- and green-robed wanderer, or as an elderly and slight tinker. In these guises he tests the doctrine of the faithful or seeks new converts."
Ehlonna, p. 67 "Brownies, elves, gnomes, and halflings are especially attuned to this deity. . . She often travels among these folks."
Erythnul, p. 67 "Erythnul stalks all battlefields in order to strike fear and rout whenever possible."
Fharlanghn, p. 68 "As Celestian wanders the starroads, his elder brother, Fharlanghn, roams the four corners of the world."
Heironeous, p. 68 "Heironeous often leaves the Seven Heavens in order to move around the Prime Material Plane in order to aid heroic causes and champion lawful good."
Hextor, p. 69 "Most frequently, though, Hextor treads the Prime Material Plane in search of warfare, aiding lawful evil, opposing good."
Incabulos, p. 70 "Clad in robes of dead black lined with cloth of sickly orang hue and nauseating moss green, he roams the Astral, Ethereal, and Prime Material Planes, the latter during darkness only."
Istus, p. 70 "Istus does certainly make appearances on other planes, including the Prime Material."
Iuz, p. 71 "Iuz rules a portion of Oerth, a horrid territory which bears its master's name, from the cursed city of Molag." (Gygax clearly had a typo here. Perhaps Dorakaa was originally to be named Molag?)
Nerull, p. 72 "Nerull stalks the many planes - particularly the Prime Material when it is shrouded by night."
Olidammara, p. 73 "He wanders the Prime Material Plane in many guises, stealing from the rich, hauty, or evil."
Pholtus, p. 74 "The Ethereal Plane, the Positive Material Plane, and the Prime Material Plane are open to Pholtus, although the deity typically remains on his own (Arcadia)."
Ralishaz, p. 74 "Ralishaz most often appears on the Prime Material Plane as an ancient and oddly dressed mendicant - sometimes male, sometimes female."
Trithereon, p. 75 "When upon the Prime Material Plane, Trithereon appears as a tall, well-built young man with red-gold hair and gray eyes."
Ulaa, p. 76 "Ulaa dwells most frequently on the Prime Material and Elemental Earth Planes."
Wastri, p. 76-77 "Wastri, the Hopping Prophet, Hammer of Demi-Humans, dwells on the Prime Material Plane (now in the region of the Vast Swamp)."
Zagyg, p. 78 "Zagyg will appear in nearly any guise when upon the Prime Material Plane."
St. Cuthbert, p. 66 "When on the Prime Material Plane he will sometimes appear as a manure-covered yokel, a brown- and green-robed wanderer, or as an elderly and slight tinker. In these guises he tests the doctrine of the faithful or seeks new converts."
Ehlonna, p. 67 "Brownies, elves, gnomes, and halflings are especially attuned to this deity. . . She often travels among these folks."
Erythnul, p. 67 "Erythnul stalks all battlefields in order to strike fear and rout whenever possible."
Fharlanghn, p. 68 "As Celestian wanders the starroads, his elder brother, Fharlanghn, roams the four corners of the world."
Heironeous, p. 68 "Heironeous often leaves the Seven Heavens in order to move around the Prime Material Plane in order to aid heroic causes and champion lawful good."
Hextor, p. 69 "Most frequently, though, Hextor treads the Prime Material Plane in search of warfare, aiding lawful evil, opposing good."
Incabulos, p. 70 "Clad in robes of dead black lined with cloth of sickly orang hue and nauseating moss green, he roams the Astral, Ethereal, and Prime Material Planes, the latter during darkness only."
Istus, p. 70 "Istus does certainly make appearances on other planes, including the Prime Material."
Iuz, p. 71 "Iuz rules a portion of Oerth, a horrid territory which bears its master's name, from the cursed city of Molag." (Gygax clearly had a typo here. Perhaps Dorakaa was originally to be named Molag?)
Nerull, p. 72 "Nerull stalks the many planes - particularly the Prime Material when it is shrouded by night."
Olidammara, p. 73 "He wanders the Prime Material Plane in many guises, stealing from the rich, hauty, or evil."
Pholtus, p. 74 "The Ethereal Plane, the Positive Material Plane, and the Prime Material Plane are open to Pholtus, although the deity typically remains on his own (Arcadia)."
Ralishaz, p. 74 "Ralishaz most often appears on the Prime Material Plane as an ancient and oddly dressed mendicant - sometimes male, sometimes female."
Trithereon, p. 75 "When upon the Prime Material Plane, Trithereon appears as a tall, well-built young man with red-gold hair and gray eyes."
Ulaa, p. 76 "Ulaa dwells most frequently on the Prime Material and Elemental Earth Planes."
Wastri, p. 76-77 "Wastri, the Hopping Prophet, Hammer of Demi-Humans, dwells on the Prime Material Plane (now in the region of the Vast Swamp)."
Zagyg, p. 78 "Zagyg will appear in nearly any guise when upon the Prime Material Plane."
I am going to say upfront that my reading of the above is, well, my reading of the above.
As I read these passages, I see that EGG could have said these gods appeared in the Flanaess (or a country thereof) or failing that Oerth. That he didn't and references the "Prime Material Plane" is, to me, significant. The PMP is a BIG place encompassing way more than Oerth.
What's more, all of these gods, of course, CAN manifest on the PMP. They have the innate ability. However, I don't reads the above as saying they make any sort of habit of doing so (with a few notable exceptions). That EGG could have provided specific examples within the history Flanaess and did not (except with the noted exceptions) is again significant to me.
However, I can see how one could read the above quotes as a blanket statement that the gods are constantly or at least are at their whim wandering Oerth and the Flanaess at any given time.
I dislike this possibility and am quite pleased that subsequent material has kept the gods aloof. But YMMV. _________________ GVD
The power of gods in relation to PCs as per the god's stats. In the 83 boxed set, high level PCs stood a chance of battling, say, Hextor. In 4E, high level PCs stand a chance of battling gods. However, 2E assumed gods were so tough that PCs could never challenge them and 3E made their power levels so high that PCs would have to be rediculously high 50th level or something.
Okay. I see what you are getting at.
However, this idea makes me crazy. I think the idea of PCs fighting gods and doing anything other than dying very fast, or getting a geas, is ridiculous. I grant others may think otherwise and look to mythology, Age of Worms etc. for examples, but to me gods who can be killed by heroes swinging their trusty +5 Swords of Ragnarok, as if the gods were just big monsters, is just so far over the top as to be beyond silly. I can compromise after a fashion if the god's avatar or aspect is involved but if we are talking the actual divine itself incarnate, I personally draw the line.
Anything Wotc produces for 4e that involves Greyhawk but that uses the 4e cosmology is not immediately canon unless and until Wotc reconciles/explains how the 1e/2e/3e cosmology/continuity changed to the 4e cosmology/continuity; otherwise what Wotc produces is a faux/doppleganger/alternate multiverse/mirror-mirror Greyhawk - at best.
GVD, all they have to do is say "that's the way it's always really been, the GH 'sages' just misinterpreted it." That is, if they address the changes at all.
If WotC, the owners of the IP, publish it, then it is canon, whether we, who have continued GH support for so long, like it or not; or whether we, individually or en masse, use it in our games or not.
It's their toybox, and they get to arrange the 'official' version as they like. That's not to say we have to use it that way, but every deviation from WotC 'canon' is another thing we'll have to explain away to any new players who join our games.
Regards,
Darrell
You draw the distinction that I make. Wotc as the IP holder gets to say what the official, that is published, version is, but that is as far as it goes. Fans determine what is canon and what is not. Rose Estes is not canon GH. Why? Because fans have, IMO, rightly recognized Estes' work as unworkable with other setting specific material. The same with "Funny" Castle Greyhawk. Etc.
It really can be no other way given that the GH IP holder has been wholly inconsistent in presenting the setting. Given version A and version B and version C, all officially published by the IP holder, one cannot look to the IP holder to say what is or is not canon. They gave up any say in the matter when they could not maintain consistency. That leaves canon to the consensus of the fans. The fans as the end users choose among themselves from the various iterations of the setting what they will use and that becomes, by general consensus, canon.
In point of fact, the IP holder cares not a wit for canon because canon does not sell anything. Canon is an idea that originates with fans who are etymologically "fanatics" about the setting. Only when enough fans agree on canon so that they will reject anything else does the IP holder care, and maybe not even then.
At the same time, canon inherently makes design harder because it lays down givens or rules. The IP holder would prefer canon not exist so that they could publish anything, and more easily, and it would be accepted without question. Here again we see canon's origination among the fanbase and,it being imposed on the IP holder, at best.
One of the knocks on GH is that Wotc does not like to design for it because, if they wish the end product to be accepted, they have to pay attention to fans expectations or canon. Here again, canon comes from below, not above.
Wotc just gets to say what is "official," the most current version. Official does not inherently equal canon. Not with so many inconsistencies among several versions, each at one time "official." _________________ GVD
So what yer saying is WotC is lazy at design. For all the knocks on Sargent-hawk, Moore-hawk and Paizo-hawk they at least knew or researched the previous material fairly well. But I believe it's too early to pan 4e-hawk since a comparible GH-czar hasn't been set on developing it (that we know of). As has been mentioned before, worries about 4e Hommlet being the last and latest word on GH canon is flimsy as the 3.5 Saltmarsh defining Core-hawk last edition.
On the much more enjoyable topic of deities visiting Oerth. Yeah, the PMP is synonymous with Oerth in the context of the 1E setting, since there was no other Prime settings to go by at the time. Even GH Adventures written near the beginning of 2E mentioned gods openly facing off in the streets of GH City. I'd like to see some timeline evidence but my gut tells me the 'Pact' concept was put in place in canon post-Time of Troubles in FR, to keep GH free of similar mega-events.
At any rate, the list is a good one that I agree with, but in most cases, as mentioned before, they will be in disguise anyways. The mere proof of this is Iuz. He is active on Oerth but does he lead his armies from the frontline or appear in GH City to get his enemies? I think he is afraid of the unseen gods that are always stalking the Oerth that would jump him if he left his safe-house.
Yes I'm aware that the gods are quoted as visiting the prime, but what I mean about how they are manifesting goes very much to how they do so, and not that they do so. Surely they appear, but not such that the common folk would ever be heard to say
"Uhoh! There goes Nerull again reaping his way across the Flanaess. He's simply incorrigible!"
I just prefer not to have any common folk to ever say
"You just missed God A who was hanging around all week, but look! Here comes god B, and he's got gods C and D with him!"
"Big deal. I just finished a weak of carousing with gods E and F."
And so I interpret "appearances" to be nearly always incognito or not literal physical manifestations. Ehlonna may hang out with elves and the fey often, but seldom will she do so in her true form. Erythnul will not literally appear on battlefields all over the place but instead manifest in the person of a worshipper(similar to possession), glaring out at a victim as they are killed. Erythnul himself is not personally stalking the battlefield like a behemoth of destruction however, but soaking up the mayhem and carnage through his followers. I see this more as the norm, and of course that doesn't preclude him actually showing up in person anywhere at any time.
The gods may pay many visits to the Prime but don't leave many signs of their passing, nor do they often take a direct hand against one another, instead choosing to do so in the more usual(and more fun) manner- through their worshipers. it helps maintianthe mystery.
Greyhawk isn't South Park. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I dislike this possibility and am quite pleased that subsequent material has kept the gods aloof. But YMMV.
You should absolutely interpret and use the material in the manner you best enjoy - for Greyhawk is, perhaps most of all the published settings, to be molded to each DM's personal desires.
However, suffice to say that if another DM were to choose to have the gods physically manifesting upon Oerth, there is ample canon to support the position. The fungibility of Greyhawk is a boon.
mortellan wrote:
At any rate, the list is a good one that I agree with, but in most cases, as mentioned before, they will be in disguise anyways.
Huzzah! Thank you for the plain-english reading of Gygax's text for what it literally says.
Cebrion wrote:
Surely they appear, but not such that the common folk would ever be heard to say
"Uhoh! There goes Nerull again reaping his way across the Flanaess. He's simply incorrigible!"
I just prefer not to have any common folk to ever say
"You just missed God A who was hanging around all week, but look! Here comes god B, and he's got gods C and D with him!"
"Big deal. I just finished a weak of carousing with gods E and F."
I am not sure which straw-man you are debating, but I certainly agree that it would be trite to the utmost degree for godly appearances to be as common a sighting for the common folk as knights or troubadors.
Cebrion wrote:
The gods may pay many visits to the Prime but don't leave many signs of their passing, nor do they often take a direct hand against one another, instead choosing to do so in the more usual(and more fun) manner- through their worshipers. it helps maintianthe mystery.
Jeepers! We agree! Where are the differences of opinion?
However, this idea makes me crazy. I think the idea of PCs fighting gods and doing anything other than dying very fast, or getting a geas, is ridiculous. I grant others may think otherwise and look to mythology, Age of Worms etc. for examples, but to me gods who can be killed by heroes swinging their trusty +5 Swords of Ragnarok, as if the gods were just big monsters, is just so far over the top as to be beyond silly. I can compromise after a fashion if the god's avatar or aspect is involved but if we are talking the actual divine itself incarnate, I personally draw the line.
YMMV Obviously
By all means, envision the gods in the manner you best enjoy. However, your position piques my curiosity on a couple of things. Please note, I am passing no judgement, just honestly curious.
Do you dislike the Gord novels, wherein a simple street-urchin rose to the likes of defeating Tharizdun in two of three battles? Or perhaps, do you dislike the concept of PCs being able to rise to such stratespheric heights as did Gord?
If the gods are beyond the upper-limit of "monsters" to challenge the PCs, what is the upper limit? Demi-gods? Quasi-gods? Demon Princes and Dukes of Hell? Demon Lords? The eldest of dragons? The Overking? Kings of Keoland, Nyrond, Furyondy? Palitinate rulers of the various duchies, counties, and baronies? Non-palitinate dukes, counts, and barons pledging fealty to the kings?
Do you have limits on how powerful and influential you allow the PCs become? Can they displace the likes of Mordenkainen or Tenser? Can they overthrow, say, the Beygraf of Ket and dominate the important Tuflik trade route?
Iuz, p. 71 "Iuz rules a portion of Oerth, a horrid territory which bears its master's name, from the cursed city of Molag." (Gygax clearly had a typo here. Perhaps Dorakaa was originally to be named Molag?)
This is all covered in Iuz the Evil. It's not a typo.
What a wonderful discussion (and I actually mean that sincerely 8).
It's interesting to see how the idea of Greyhawk as repackaged Corvette is used, but I think instead of talking about Corvettes and Yugos and Mustangs to make the point, look at it this way:
Greyhawk is the Corvette of the gaming world. When Corvette's first appeared, they were very nice little sports coupes, but didn't really light the world on fire, or sell very well. This could be akin to the 1st generation of Greyhawk products.
Then, when Corvette stylings changed to the much more recognizable "Mako Shark/Stingray" body styles, they hit big time. They became everybody's darling. Everybody loved them, much like everyone has happy memories of the Greyhawk period between about the release of the first Folio, and we'll say the last of the post-FtA material.
Then, Corvette did the unthnkable in the 80's... they abandoned the Stingray body style for a new one, with a boxier rear end. The uproar was immediate. Old scholl Corvette stylists HATED it, and started talking about how it wasn't even a Corvette anymore. The new kids like it because it had awesome power. This would be the arrival of 3rd edition, and how old school 'Hawkers started decrying the changes/abandonement of the Greyhawk way, while the new kids just liked to play.
Then, Corvette change again in the mid-90s, coming out with ZR-1 power monsters. People who liked power thought Corvettes were still pretty sweet. People who liked STingrays probably no longer had anything to do with Corvettes, other than remembering fondly the days of the Stingray. That is the 4ed Greyhawk.
Really, in the Corvette community, you have two types of people... those who think Corvettes stopped being Corvettes after the Stingray was dropped, and those who appreciate the power of a Corvette, regardless of what the body looks (I was going to say "power and craftsmanship", but associating the work "craftsmanship" with a Corvette is pretty hard to swallow 8). Just like Greyhawkers. You have a group who will say Greyhawk stopped being Greyhawk the day 3ed hit and started mucking with things, and you have those who like the concept of D&D, and will play Greyhawk regardless of the "body styling" or "engine". With Corvette enthusiasts, you will likely never convert the Stingray group out of their ways... they still appreciate the power and beauty of new Vettes, but think they would be so much better if they still looked like Stingrays... And so go Greyhawkers. Do I like all the changes that they are doing in Greyhawk? Not really.... but I also don't really like 3rd Ed or 4th Ed, so I just ignore them, and tinker with that old 2nd Edition Stingray in my garage, finding factory parts when I can, but using modern parts to keep the old "Stingray" running, because otherwise, it's done.
I just felt this had to be said, because if I love anything, it's Greyhawk and Corvettes. 8)
“In general, the greater gods are too far removed from the world to have much to do with humanity . . . These deities have been known to intercede directly in the affairs of men, but only if these affairs have a direct and crucial bearing upon the concerns of the deity. Even so, the annals of the historians list only a few such instances in the history of the Flanaess.“ Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting, 83Box, p. 62. The foregoing applies to the Greater Deities; they do not get involved in Oerthly affairs as a rule.
How about other deities, less than greater gods, more generally? “Deities have weighty affairs to attend to, and in general they can not be bothered with the trivial needs of a party of lowly mortals. However, under certain circumstances, a demi-god and a godling might well become embroiled in human affairs . . . (note made concerning Iuz and St. Cuthbert, the classic exceptions to the rule). “Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting, 83Box, p. 62.
What we have here in 1st Ed. is a defacto non-interference situation, if not yet a pact. The gods don’t act directly on Oerth, particularly the Flanaess, with the noted exceptions.
But what to make of all the references to the gods being active on the Prime Material Plane as noted in the Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting, 83Box, p. 64 to 78? The PMP is much more than just Oerth. “The Prime Material Plane (or Physical Plane) houses the universe and all of its parallels. It is the plane of Terra, and your campaign, in all likelihood.” Players Handbook (1e), p. 120. The PMP is thus much, much larger than Oerth; it encompasses the universe and any parallel universes. Thus the references to the gods being active on the PMP can be reconciled with the statements that they are much less active on Oerth itself.
The Gord Books
Despite the above, written by EGG, in the Gord novels EGG has Gord fighting deities. How can these two separate canon sources be reconciled. Easily. Gord’s adventures take place in novels and are then subject to the needs of the novel. Novels, which tell an entertaining story, have obviously different needs than game accessories that facilitate the play of a game. Gord and the 83 Box are apples and oranges; both fruit but of distinctly different types.
If the above were not immediately obvious, one need only look to the ultimate plot outcome of the Gord novels. Oerth is destroyed in the novels. Obviously, this is distinct from the game world of Oerth, which suffers no such fate.
2e and the Deific Non-Interference Pact
“The Powers of Oerth rarely intercede directly in the affairs of Oerth.” Atlas of the Flanaess, From the Ashes, p. 80. Note that this statement squares exactly with the above citations from the 83 Box quoted above. The two are in accord.
“The Powers have an implicit understanding that if one of them should act too directly, others will act in concert to oppose the meddler, for if all acted in such a manner, Oerth would be destroyed by the Powers. “ Atlas of the Flanaess, From the Ashes, p. 80. There are two things to note here.
First, the pact is “implicit” not explicit. This is entirely in accord with the behavior described in the 83 Box – with the noted exceptions ,the gods stay out of Oerthly affairs.
Second, the idea that if the gods got heavily involved Oerth would be destroyed, exactly mirrors the plot of the Gord novels. Sargent, who authored From the Ashes is thus following not only the idea of a deific pact from the 83 Box, he is also following the counter possibility novelized in the Gord adventures! Where EGG kept the Gord novels and AD&D Greyhawk game setting separate in their presentations, Sargent drew from both. Indeed, the whole idea of a Flanaess-wide war was first posited by EGG in his From the Sorcerer Scrolls columns in Dragon Magazine updating the Flanaess game setting. Sargent era canon is thus in accord with Gygax era canon, at least in these three particulars.
Subsequent Canon
The idea of deific non-interference on Oerth has been carried forward in GH canon. It is repeated in the Players Guide to Greyhawk, p. 18 – “The people of the Flanaess feel their gods are real and can take concrete action on the material plane. This feeling isn’t changed by the fact that the most powerful gods rarely involve themselves directly with happenings on Oerth, St. Cuthbert being an occasional exception to this.”
The idea of deific non-interference on Oerth is further carried forward by the Living Greyhawk Gazatteer – “ Finally, no god above demigod level may enter the Prime Material Plane of Oerth without the consensus of a majority of the gods of Oerth. (exceptions then noted)” Living Greyhawk Gazateer, p. 164.
Conclusion
Canon sources are in broad agreement – gods do not work actively, in person, on Oerth. Gods are certainly not available for PCs to slay and take their stuff or position as if gods were just bigger monsters.
All this says nothing about what PCs might or might not accomplish if they leave Oerth to venture onto the planes themselves. See Planescape and its exposition of the Great Wheel and its deific residents for further discussion.
To the degree 4e might reduce gods to just big monsters, 4e is not “returning” to Greyhawk’s roots as a published setting because such has never been the case, broadly speaking, in the game setting of Greyhawk. Gods can manifest on Oerth but do not do so as a rule. That is the consensus among canon sources. If 4e might be read to say otherwise, it would be standing apart from the mainstream of GH canon sources on the subject.
Do you dislike the Gord novels, wherein a simple street-urchin rose to the likes of defeating Tharizdun in two of three battles? Or perhaps, do you dislike the concept of PCs being able to rise to such stratespheric heights as did Gord?
If the gods are beyond the upper-limit of "monsters" to challenge the PCs, what is the upper limit? Demi-gods? Quasi-gods? Demon Princes and Dukes of Hell? Demon Lords? The eldest of dragons? The Overking? Kings of Keoland, Nyrond, Furyondy? Palitinate rulers of the various duchies, counties, and baronies? Non-palitinate dukes, counts, and barons pledging fealty to the kings?
Do you have limits on how powerful and influential you allow the PCs become? Can they displace the likes of Mordenkainen or Tenser? Can they overthrow, say, the Beygraf of Ket and dominate the important Tuflik trade route?
First, the Gord novels are novels, not game accessories. See my post immediately above. Novels and game accessories are not equivalent.
Second, would I allow as DM a PC to achieve in a D&D game what Gord achieved in the novels? No. Never. The game, IMO, would mechanically not support such powerful PCs, particularly if there were an entire party of such godlings. And if only one PC were a godling, he or she would vastly overshadow the PCs of the other players to boot.
Finally, my sources of inspiration for gaming do not include material where the protagonists become gods. I'm old school - REH, JRRT, Lieber, Moorcock, KEWagner - Conan, Bilbo/Frodo, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon and Kane never became divine.
For these three reasons - no. Otherwise:
With respect to demi-gods as challenges to PCs - yes - but only as the penultimate challenge of a campaign (like e.g. Age of Worms) - never casually. The same would pretty much hold true for demon princes and arch-devils (like e.g. Savage Tide), with only slightly more leeway.
Elder dragons etc., kings, lesser nobility as opponents - sure - no problem. Not casually but much easier than demi-gods, demon princes and arch-devils.
With respect to notable NPCs (eg Mordy, Tenser etc.) and political power (ruler of Ket etc.) grabs - no problem at all. Although again, not casually.
Anything less than full divine is negotiable, IMO. Philosophically, the divine stands apart by its very nature, IMO. Practically, PCs capable of legitimately supplanting the divine rise to a power level not supported by the game mechanics nor by fictional sources from which I, in the main, draw my inspiration.
Luckily for me, GH canon sources lead me pretty much where I was inclined to go anyway. See my post immediately above. Maybe that's why I like GH so much. _________________ GVD
Finally, my sources of inspiration for gaming do not include material where the protagonists become gods. I'm old school - REH, JRRT, Lieber, Moorcock, KEWagner - Conan, Bilbo/Frodo, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon and Kane never became divine.
I generally agree with you, although I feel obliged to note that Elric killed a number of gods, and the entire plot of the first Corum trilogy involved him killing the chaos gods who ruled the fifteen local planes of existence one by one. Although he never retained it for long, Elric did achieve divine-level power a few times: when he merged with his counterparts Corum and Erekose to fend off a multiverse-threatening villain; when he similarly merged with Jerry Cornelius, Sexton Begg, Jack Karaquazian and so forth at the climax of the Michael Moorcock's Multiverse comic; and at the climax of Stormbringer, when he gained enough strength from murdering gods with his titular sword to keep overpowering other gods.
Entities like Arioch, Mabelode, and Xiombarg weren't small fry, either; they had the ability to destroy entire worlds (five each, in fact) in the Corum series, and as such had a rather better kill record than Tharizdun.
Quote:
With respect to demi-gods as challenges to PCs - yes - but only as the penultimate challenge of a campaign (like e.g. Age of Worms)
This doesn't modify your point, but Kyuss was actually the ultimate challenge in Age of Worms. The penultimate (second to last) challenge was Dragotha.
There's a few loose threads to tie up that may or may not already be covered by your pursuasive post(At least a few I can think of now):
1) Later editions, 3.x in particular have stretched the progression of deific modes of manifestation. I am referring to Avatars and 'Aspects' of true gods that are of a lesser "Divine Rank" and are thus equal to in power of a demigod and thus within the acceptable limits of the Pact. With these rules in place, it is still entirely possible to have gods roaming Oerth freely.
2) Telchur, a lesser god and likely not covered as an exception imprisoned Vatun another lesser god somewhere. On Oerth most likely and the 5 Swords of Corusk are said to summon Vatun. If that ever truly was meant to work, is that an exception or a loophole in the Pact?
3) In Greyhawk Ruins, Nerull fought over the dungeons beneath the Tower of War with Vaprak, causing much damage to the place. An isolated event but highly unusual given Nerull is a Greater God who should be above the concerns of even a god like Vaprak.
Hm. What's all this have to do with Homlett in 4E? I forget. Maybe we need to branch this topic off before its hijacked any further.
2) Telchur, a lesser god and likely not covered as an exception imprisoned Vatun another lesser god somewhere.
Technically this was done by Telchur's priests, not Telchur himself.
Quote:
3) In Greyhawk Ruins, Nerull fought over the dungeons beneath the Tower of War with Vaprak, causing much damage to the place. An isolated event but highly unusual given Nerull is a Greater God who should be above the concerns of even a god like Vaprak.
The damage was done by "a giant wraithlike monster that looks like drawings of Vaprak." I don't think this was Vaprak himself (who is not described as wraithlike). I don't see any evidence that Nerull ever manifested in the dungeons; he only exercised his power to stop Vaprak from destroying them. Mostly they seem to be working through their priests, though Vaprak gated in a great deal of monsters.
fwiw, 1e ex1, Murlynd wasn't home, uk1, the Greenman was going anywhere. Both low level god, somewhat off plane, not making much of any impact. _________________ Plar of Poofy Pants
Well, they had a little help from an arch devil, so not quite as bad. Still kinda bad though, introducing a god who seems to have no purpose for existing other than to have a reason for 5 swords to be rejoined.
So....how about that Hommlet, eh? _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
Well I always figured that the Greyhawk model took its inspiration from the Greek & Norse models with gods carousing, impregnating, and smiting mortals every now and then but otherwise doing their own thing.
Thank you Paul! I forgot about Kord(Greater God) and his many children fathered on Oerth as per Dragon Magazine #88.
Ah that Lakofka!
Mort’s right! I forget about Kord – “Kord is quite the fool for a pretty face. He favors elven and human women, but has also consorted with other humanoids and even giants. The world is full of his sons and daughters, but few, if any, of them can claim demigod status (less than 1%).” Dragon 87, p. 24. The article then goes on, in detail, to explain how a character can be declared a demi-deity offspring of Kord, essentially by passing a series of dice rolling tests with no modifiers. I’m Mort-ified!
If 4e Hommlet uses more “approachable” 4e gods, maybe the town is filled with the offspring of gods and the gods themselves getting busy with the local population. It could be an exception to the Living GH Gaz admonition that gods can only visit Oerth with a majority vote of the other gods. 4e Hommlet could be some sort of wide-open town/divine brothel!!! “Now entering Hommlet. Open 24/7." What happens in Hommlet stays in Hommlet?
Well I always figured that the Greyhawk model took its inspiration from the Greek & Norse models with gods carousing, impregnating, and smiting mortals every now and then but otherwise doing their own thing.
If 4e Hommlet uses more “approachable” 4e gods, maybe the town is filled with the offspring of gods and the gods themselves getting busy with the local population...
Of course, 4E does comment that "Gods are distant," as one of the core conceits of its setting (per the 4E DMG). Whether or not that holds true in actual later published works is another issue and one I'm not sufficiently familiar with any of their published modules or such to comment on.
I'm not sure where the idea of 4E's gods as any more "approachable" than 1E's gods are.
After all, Lolth just keeps getting promotions with every passing edition; she's gone from Demon Queen with a side order of Demigoddess of the Drow to Lesser Goddess all the way up to Greater Goddess of Bad Naughty Stuff in the present edition; I rather like her better when she was a minor and unknown creepy-crawly in the Abyss...
After all, Lolth just keeps getting promotions with every passing edition; she's gone from Demon Queen with a side order of Demigoddess of the Drow to Lesser Goddess all the way up to Greater Goddess of Bad Naughty Stuff in the present edition; I rather like her better when she was a minor and unknown creepy-crawly in the Abyss...
This is somewhat incorrect, although the general sentiment is right. Lolth started out as a lesser goddess in her first appearances in Q1. "As a lesser goddess, Lolth has certain attributes common to all divine beings" (page 32). Per the original source, she was both a lesser goddess and a demon queen, although note that all demon lords were given the power of lesser deities in Deities & Demigods and subsequent first edition products (this changed in second edition, when Carl Sargent statted Graz'zt and Pazrael without any divine abilities in Iuz the Evil).
Of course, the power of a lesser deity increased dramatically as time went on (with a bunch of new powers added in the Greyhawk boxed set and the 1st edition Manual of the Planes, and 2nd edition Legends & Lore added the intermediate category of deities - which caused Carl Sargent to upgrade many lesser deities to intermediate status even as he demoted many greater deities to this same newly defined rank.
wow, im so late at tis discussion...but my 2 cents are:
-its good to have GH products, even if its sucks and are made for 4ed. the thing is that it may lid the torch for people to look for more GH material, thus increasing fan support
This is somewhat incorrect, although the general sentiment is right...
Fair enough; it has been a while since I cracked open my copy of Q1 and was working from (faulty) memory -- still, I prefer Lolth when it was "Lolth Who? What strange mystery is this?" and not "Oh! The Evil Spider Queen Goddess That EVERYONE Knows!"
Or, alternately, as this one-off monster who Venger threw at the Cartoon Heroes...
That aside, I like the idea of an Intermediate Deity -- or the even more broadly sliding scale of 3E's "Divine Rank" system, I cannot deny.
Yep, its out. Its not retail but a free mailing for those enrolled in the RPGA DM rewards program (you also must have updated your profile before March 31st 2009).
Oh, so I had to have signed up prior to March? It sounds like in the thread that even signers after March will get the adventure, from what I read. _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
First off - Hey! Long time no see! I just got my copy yesterday. A surprise as I hadn't realized I was signed up for the DM rewards program (I was just a player in my first 4e campaign when I signed up although I've since taken over the campaign from the previous DM, which explains much of my absence from CF). Anyway, have just skimmed it so far but it appears to be, as I expected, setting neutral, although Andy Collins does give due props to GH in the intro. There is however a map of the Hommlet area with pointers to Verbobonc, Nulb, and the ToEE, although nothing is ever said about And now for what's inside -
**Spoiler Alert**
The temple of Cuthbert is now a temple of Pelor but most everything else is essentially the same. The druid grove is still referred to as a "bastion of the Old Faith", Rannos and Gremag, Terjon, Jaroo, Burne, Rufus, all still there. Jaroo is a half-elf, can't remember if he was in the original. Ditto for the moathouse for the most part - Lareth the Beautiful, giant frogs, giant crayfish, zombies, even our old buddy Lubash the ogre. There's also a mention of an amulet possesed by Lareth's spies in the village inscribed with the letter "TZGY." Hmmm... Who could that be referring to? This is probably just thrown in as an easter egg for us old-timers by Andy though since there is a sidebar giving some choices as to whom Lareth serves, mentioning previous refs to Lolth and Tharizdun while serving up some likely choices for 4e DM's. Sadly, no mention of Nuestra Senora de los Fungi. Other changes - Lareth has a dragonborn bodygaurd, inclusion of some 3e/4e monsters, inclusion of minor quests at several locations in the village, mostly to get players headed to the direction of the moathouse (Yeah, yeah, I know, "World of Warcraft!", but it's a pretty nice tool to include, especially for new DMs, IMO). Well and of course it's written for 4e.
From the map and what Andy says he went back more for the feel of the original though he included some elements from Return. Suits me as I always preferred the cozy small village. Very nice maps. No tactical map of the dungeon level of the moathouse, though there is one of the ground level. But there is a tactical map of the Inn of the Welcome Wench, just waiting for a bar-fight to break out!
As far as the speculations on more emphasis on role-playing Andy set up an enounter at Rannos and Gremag's trading post with guidelines for playing it either as a combat or role-playing encounter, yet trying to avoid the clunky (IMO) skill challenge format of most 4e non-combat encounters.
All in all, I like it so far, but then again I like 4e and therefore am clinically insane, so what do I know.
Hoping to get my own copy, I renewed my RPGA membership on line (it had been 9 years since I had done anything with RPGA) and signed up for the DM Rewards program, and that was pretty painless.
They say that another shipment of Hommlet modules will be made later this year and if "they" are not full of it, I'll be on the list to receive one
. . . I just got my copy yesterday. . . . have just skimmed it so far but it appears to be, as I expected, setting neutral . . .. There is however a map of the Hommlet area with pointers to Verbobonc, Nulb, and the ToEE, although nothing is ever said about And now for what's inside -
**Spoiler Alert**
The temple of Cuthbert is now a temple of Pelor but most everything else is essentially the same.
Thank you for the information!
I'm pleased Hommlet was not 4e'ed beyond recognition.
The question strikes me, then, why Hommlet? If its not to be 4e'ed and its not to be an intro product to a 4e GH (and really even if it was so intended), why the same old, same old Hommlet?
Wotc has made sufficiently obvious that their target audience is not the rollplaying crowd circa 1972, 1982, or 1992 for whom Hommlet would have the most resonance. The rollplaying crowd of 2002 has also been left laying, unless they want to start over with 4e. They know Hommlet only from (maybe) RoToEE or the snipet in the LGG. Hommlet means almost nothing, I'd think, to the fresh 4e crowd Wotc longs to draw to the game, so why Hommlet?
And why Hommlet virtually unchanged (something I personally like) in any case? Hommage or tradition seems right out, given the target audience. You'd think a 4e Hommlet would have gone all 4e-eeky.
I suspect the two questions - why Hommlet and why virtually the same old, same old Hommlet - have the same answer:
Wotc's designers are too lazy to be bothered creating a highly detailed small village when they have one sitting on the shelf. Its not that they fear any comparison with EGG's masterwork, or that they are paying homage to that work or that they don't think they can do as well or better - they are just stone cold, dead assed lazy.
So let's cheer the laziness of Wotc and Andy "Dead Assed Lazy" Collins!
NB - So there I am roaming through Half Price Books this weekend and I come to the used games section and what to my wondering eyes should appear than all the basic 4e D&D books (multiple copies of each) and some of the follow on products. I buy - none. At subsequent stops on my Half Price Books tour, I see more 4e materials in the used games sections. 4e was released not even a year ago! I never saw the like for 3.0 or 3.5. Make of it what you may. _________________ GVD
I am hoping my copy will show up soon. I really want it for the poster maps if nothing else. That I can use it to intro my 4e players to Greyhawk is a bonus.
T1 was the first mod I played (In Search Of The Unknown I ran as a DM before I ever played). Of course I didn't have a clue as an early teen how to do either very well...
BTW, you are not crazy for liking 4e, fun is fun whether you are playing OD&D or its latest incarnation.
Hommage or tradition seems right out, given the target audience.
I think you might be too cynical. Some of the WotC designers are fond of old school gaming (I know at least one was running a Castle Greyhawk campaign), and they may have genuinely wanted to bring a classic module to a new audience with minimal distortion.
I don't think laziness is the answer. They've developed new villages for 4e before, and could do so again (or just re-present some they've already developed). There's only one reason to make the thorp in question Hommlet, and that's as an homage to a classic AD&D module.
As for their target audience, they may be primarily going after newer gamers, but they know that older gamers have money too. It's possible that part of their motivation is to please older gamers who know what Hommlet is, and another part to introduce newer gamers to the history of the game.
Laziness is insufficient motivation. People become professional game designers because they enjoy designing games.
Ditto what Rasgon said. Andy wrote a very nice author's note about his fond memories of running T1-4 back when he was in middle school.
Saracenus, I sure could have used the moathouse map two weeks ago myself. As it was I just mapped one out on a large piece of cardboard I gridded myself. My first thought was "Maybe I can use this later," but now that I look at it, the map I "made up" out of my head looks strangely similar to the moathouse. It's funny what you don't even realize you're doing. As an aside, since taking over the 4e campaign I've been running the party through a reworking of UK5 - Eye of the Serpent, and have been pretty happy with the results so far, though sadly I don't think I can get DM reward points by running a non-RPGA sanctioned module.
Wotc has made sufficiently obvious that their target audience is not the rollplaying crowd circa 1972, 1982, or 1992 for whom Hommlet would have the most resonance.
The Hommlet module is this year's annual freebie for RPGA members. If it is like previous years' RPGA freebies, it won't be sold in stores.
RPGA members are WoTC's installed base. They've heard of Hommlet. As a self selected group of hardcore DnD players, they share very little from a marketer's perspective with a target audience of new customers.
Insofar as it says anything about WoTC's brand strategy, it's a customer retention strategy, and viewed in that light, using something from GH makes sense. And it doesn't say much about that, beyond a way to encourage people to join the RPGA (cuz its got free stuff), and get existing RPGA members to keep their contact info up to date so WoTC has a mailing list.
GVDammerung wrote:
let's cheer the laziness of Wotc and Andy "Dead Assed Lazy" Collins
It's extremely late in the game to be throwing around the "lazy" accusation. Everything commercially produced related to the setting for at least the last 10 years has been a retread.
As I read these passages, I see that EGG could have said these gods appeared in the Flanaess (or a country thereof) or failing that Oerth. That he didn't and references the "Prime Material Plane" is, to me, significant. The PMP is a BIG place encompassing way more than Oerth.
Of course. The PMP also encompasses an infinite number of home campaigns, and by referencing the PMP rather than Oerth in general, Gygax invites gamers to have the deities manifest in their home settings.
Or maybe Gary didn't think he should spell out exactly when and where each miracle occurred, lest people would get into a snit about overly-detailed settings.
Quote:
However, I can see how one could read the above quotes as a blanket statement that the gods are constantly or at least are at their whim wandering Oerth and the Flanaess at any given time.
I dislike this possibility and am quite pleased that subsequent material has kept the gods aloof. But YMMV.
My mileage does vary. Deities are a constant presence in my campaigns and in my campaign setting. Why? Because the PCs are Important People, whether they know it or not, and Stuff Happens Around Them. Do the gods swoop in and save the day? No, because then the gods would be the Important People, not the PCs. Does every Tom, ****, and Harry get to see a god? No, just Important People. Are there towns that are divine brothels? No, because that would be stupid. The gods still show up, though, at least once or twice a campaign, just to stick their fingers in and Make Stuff Happen. The gods act through mortals; management gets better results if management gets off its **** and shows its face downstairs every once in awhile. And there wouldn't be any point in acting through mortals if mortals couldn't actually do anything, so mortals must be able to muck things up for the gods every once in awhile too.
What does it matter if Ehlonna spends 24/7 manifested on Oerth - in the Flanaess, even? She never manifests near the PCs or anyone remotely connected to the PCs. Kord could be banging his way through the Snow Barbarians and it wouldn't matter, unless your campaign happens to be set in the Schnaii -- in which case, Kord has decided to mix it up, get a little tropical, and go visit a few Hepmonaland Suelii instead.
Wotc's designers are too lazy to be bothered creating a highly detailed small village when they have one sitting on the shelf. Its not that they fear any comparison with EGG's masterwork, or that they are paying homage to that work or that they don't think they can do as well or better - they are just stone cold, dead assed lazy.
Ah. Like the gamers who are too lazy to design their own campaign setting, and instead just pull some "hacked-together-out-of-real-world-cultures" setting out of a box.
Quote:
So let's cheer the laziness of Wotc and Andy "Dead Assed Lazy" Collins!
Gosh, it's so refreshing to see people using the internet to belittle and insult other people, whom they don't even know, over a product they've never seen.
Ah. Like the gamers who are too lazy to design their own campaign setting, and instead just pull some "hacked-together-out-of-real-world-cultures" setting out of a box.
Nellisir wrote:
Gosh, it's so refreshing to see people using the internet to belittle and insult other people, whom they don't even know, over a product they've never seen.
There is a difference as between "professional" designers paid to produce product and consumers who no one pays for anything related to the game. One expects a higher standard from "professionals," which Andy has loudly proclaimed himself and Wotc to be as a basis on which to premise the supposed superiority of their designs while denigrating others.
Moreover, given the ease with which one can assemble a list of old products and concepts revisited, again and again, without substantial change or development, I think laziness is as good a term as any.
And as it happens, I have met Collins on multiple occasions. I found him arrogant, dismissive and particularly hostile to Greyhawk. I recall with clarity my last meeting with him and his reaction when 4e was announced and it was further announced that RPGA Greyhawk was going to be terminated. He dismissed Greyhawk as old news and fans of Greyhawk as hopelessly out of touch. When his quick dismissal only brought further comments and questions supportive of Greyhawk, which others answered, he maintained a look as if someone had just done something unspeakable on his shoe, before chimming in finally with a "Too bad, so sad, get used to it" comment completely dismissive of the obvious feelings in the room. The Wotc panel was BOOED by the RPGA audience in immediate reaction.
Andy Collins is no friend of Greyhawk. His design of 4e Hommlet (which has been thoroughly reviewed in multiple venues) bespeaks this as Hommlet is essentially simply reprinted. I call that lazy. At the least. _________________ GVD
As the OP on this topic I am asking those that want to debate the merits of GVD's posts on Andy Collins and the responses to them to please fork it over to a new thread.
Talking about the merits of Andy as a person and designer adds little to the main topic and will serve as a distraction to those that haven't seen the new/old Homlet yet and want to ask questions of those that have.
Keep in mind, I have only looked over 4th ed PH, DMG and MM, not actually played. With that said...IMO one of the pivotal encounters in T1 is with those rascally brigands in the "Black Chamber" of the ruined moathouse. They pose a substantial threat to the 1st level party, if the party has been hammered by the frogs, spider, snake etc., and they meet these guys when down on HP and spells...big trouble. In 1st ed, they are all, except the leader, 0 level dudes, "normal" guys who through misadventure or choice ended up leaving the farm/shop/village and now are hardened criminals.
In 4th ed. in my reading, they would immediatly be dead meat; faceless 1hp pincushions, fodder for the pc party, who, in 4E, is by necessity, a tactical fire-team, with complex tactics and moves. This is my problem with 4E; in 1E, it was recommended to have a ftr, thf, clr and mu, but if you didn't, cleverness and luck, and role-play, you could succeed. In 4e, if you don't have a striker, defender etc. acting with polished tactical teamwork, the game has been created to insure your doom.
This, i feel, is prolly reflected in this first encounter in T1, and is one of my major beefs with 4E....
...or I could just be a gaming Luddite weeping in my dice bag...
I would like to get the opinions of people who know more about 4E, and especially the 4E version of T1
That first encounter looks about right for 5 4th level pc's. Not a cake-walk but not too hard either. The last encounter with Lareth looks pretty tough to me, but from what I've seen of 4e modules and from other's experience wotc's designers do make later encounters a little too tough. I don't know if they're expecting people to take more rests than they are, or if they're just overestimating the tactical abilities of most players, but I heard there were an awful lot of TPK's at the end of Keep on the Shadowfell. My party barely survived although we did lose our cleric. I personally don't care for the whole tactical team approach. Parties of adventurers shouldn't be knuckleheads but neither should they be SEAL teams. That said I think the tendency to assume you have to have such and such roles filled on the team to survive is in most cases false. In my experience a good party of fighters of the right level should be able to tear apart a room of monsters almost as effectively as a carefully balanced tactical team. A full party of wizards is always a bad idea though, if you ask me.
Strange - my experience is that team composition makes a huge difference. We played an attack by a bunch of gnolls on an abandoned village. Our goal was to protect an npc.
Team composition 1: Eladrin wizard (MC ranger), Human 2W ranger, Human Warlord (MC cleric). They kicked the gnolls to hell with the wizard mopping up a lot of the minions at a reasonable distance and the ranger heading out into harms way to take on the tougher gnolls.
Team composition 2: Human fighter (MC Warlord), Human bard (MC Druid), Shadar-kai warlock (MC rogue). Due to a mistake early on (the bard not using her green thumb gloves to erect a wall to slow down the gnoll minions' advance) and later on getting cornered in a building where she no longer had line of sight to heal the fighter who had ventured outside, this party lost the fight.
That first encounter looks about right for 5 4th level pc's. Not a cake-walk but not too hard either. The last encounter with Lareth looks pretty tough to me, but from what I've seen of 4e modules and from other's experience wotc's designers do make later encounters a little too tough. I don't know if they're expecting people to take more rests than they are, or if they're just overestimating the tactical abilities of most players, but I heard there were an awful lot of TPK's at the end of Keep on the Shadowfell. My party barely survived although we did lose our cleric. I personally don't care for the whole tactical team approach. Parties of adventurers shouldn't be knuckleheads but neither should they be SEAL teams. That said I think the tendency to assume you have to have such and such roles filled on the team to survive is in most cases false. In my experience a good party of fighters of the right level should be able to tear apart a room of monsters almost as effectively as a carefully balanced tactical team. A full party of wizards is always a bad idea though, if you ask me.
I have never seen a player group in ANY edition of the game not take a rogue-like character (a striker), a cleric like character (a leader) a wizard like character (a controller) and a fighter like character (a defender) - so that is hardly a good arguement. Especially now with so many options (and not all equal - anyone who thinks a bard is exactly like a cleric in 4E, simply because they are both leaders is dead wrong) you can have almost any combination of characters and still manage to get by.
What I would like to know is how, in your opinions, the edition of the game, 1st to 4th in this case actually changes the tone of this early T1 encounter...it sounds like the first level of the moathouse in the new version is designed for 4th level pcs, a big diffrence from T1, designed for 1st level, so it may be difficult to compare.
Question: What level are the brigands? Are they in the 4ed T1 more than normal, but desperate humans?
If so, IMO this is a big difference.
Do you feel that this encounter is DESIGNED specifically for a 4e fire team mix?
I will keep my Gary Gygax autographed 1st edition 1st printing monochrome copy, thank you very much.
I am sure that the 4e version will not make your original spontaneously combust ...
-You don't know that...
Cebrion wrote:
This could be very interesting, considering what time period this 4e version of T1 will be set in and what changes will be made to it. It could very well forshadow things to come for Greyhawk.
-I think that's what everyone is afraid of...
PaulN6 wrote:
...Each edition places its own spin. 3e turned Hommlett into a cosmopolitan mix of humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, and barbarian halflings (shudder)...
-What about ninja half-orcs?
Fortunately, I'm sure that Paul is joking.
cennedi wrote:
IronGolem wrote:
Producing heretical new stuff kills Greyhawk more effectively than not producing anything at all, IMHO.
Anything WotC produces would be/will be Canon...
-Wonderful.
cennedi wrote:
...At one point I asked the Devs why they chose Eberron and not FR or GH and the answer was that the Devs didn't want to have people criticizing and attacking every little thing they did that was not exactly canon. The Devs didn't want to listen to a torrent of complaints concerning the look of a sword or set of armor.
-Then maybe the developers should actually try learning about GH before they start monkeying around with it, or as Iron Golem posted:
IronGolem wrote:
...It takes a lot of time and effort to become familiar with the history of a product line. It may be that developers do not typically have the time or incentive to do that kind of research before producing a new product for that line. In the absense thorough research, a pre-existing familiarity and love of the product line is crucial to producing a quality product. I think Paizo is the perfect example of how this is done right. Erik Mona clearly has a love and familiarity with Greyhawk that made the adventure paths in Dungeon a joy to read.
...and JHSII:
JHSII wrote:
For me it's simple - Imagine that Chevrolet bought the rights to build the Yugo. They then renamed it "Corvette" for the 2010 model year and put one of those little Corvette plastic decals on it.
Any guesses on how popular it would be?
Would any of you want to buy a Corvette ZR-Yugo for $135,000?
This is what Hasbro/WotC is trying to do. They want my business - they're going to have to do better. A whole lot better!!
-BTW, before I seriously started studying this site about two weeks ago, I had no idea how screwed up WOTC (I had heard about the problems about a decade ago when Gygax left the store); all I knew is that the artwork in the 3.5e books suck (Have the artists ever bothered to look at what a suit of chainmail actually looks like? And what's with all the tatoos? The sample PCs look like refugees from a rave that went wrong).
Got my copy. While I can't say that many of the changes are, in and of themselves, all that significant, it appears to me that their cumulative effect changes the tone and feel of the adventure. In other words, it's just not the same Hommlet to me.
(Minor spoilers to follow.)
For example, recasting Spugnoir as a tiefling and Furnok of Ferd as a dwarf isn't all that big a deal in the long run. However, inserting tieflings, dragonborn, etc., while confusing the issue of who Lareth serves somewhat, in addition to all the other changes and coupled with a different rules set, just makes it feel like a different town and adventure. For me it's similar to having a neighbor with an identical house - sure, I can walk in and find my way around, but it's just not home.
My main complaint against the new version is that is stripped the village of all the little things that didn't have anything to do with the adventure but gave the entire thing a personality. For example:
I loved that the church of St. Cuthbert was covered with all these little Cuthbertian sayings. Or the nosey little old lady. Or how about the brothers that thought the end of the world was coming and so had stockpiled food, water, and weapons in their basement.
"old school" published adventure writing seems to fill the area up with lots of little things that were just for flavor... they didn't have any real purpose to the plot of the adventure itself.
I have heard that this is in part due to the writers agreement that WotC has now. WotC and Writers don't negotiate or dicker over price anymore. The writers aren't paid by the strength of finished product but instead by word count, so any extraneous material are edited out to reduce the purchase price. I can see why WotC went this route... in the past they have had a couple of experiences with promoting a product only to have an author pull it from publication when they couldn't get what they wanted for it. Plus they deal with a lot of amateur writers so a simplified writing template and submission/purchase process has a lot to be desired. But one of the consequences is that the materials just aren't as rich as they could have been.
I can second that, Varthalon. That, I think, is the greatest loss in gaming today. All the little details that added richness and interest to products are largely gone. Today most of them read as lists of combat encounters or at least background info for a list of combat encounters. I sometimes compare it to food - today's products provide an explosion of flavor that, while it may be pleasurable, lacks the subtleties and intricacies that one finds in a truly satisfying gourmet meal.
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Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
I just got my copy yesterday. A surprise as I hadn't realized I was signed up for the DM rewards program (I was just a player in my first 4e campaign when I signed up although I've since taken over the campaign from the previous DM, which explains much of my absence from CF). Anyway, have just skimmed it so far but it appears to be, as I expected, setting neutral, although Andy Collins does give due props to GH in the intro. There is however a map of the Hommlet area with pointers to Verbobonc, Nulb, and the ToEE, although nothing is ever said about And now for what's inside -
