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    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:18 pm  
    Village of Homlet 4e Coming

    Scott Rouse posted up an enworld about a recap of a seminar he did at a con.... he let it drop Village of Homlet will see a 4e version... LINK:

    http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/254542-gts-2009-d-d-seminar-rouse-discusses-d-d.html

    Enjoy, discuss...

    ~~Saracenus
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    Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:34 pm  

    Say it isn't so.... Sad
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:57 am  

    This could be very interesting, considering what time period this 4e version of T1 will be set in and what changes will be made to it. It could very well forshadow things to come for Greyhawk.
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:55 am  

    JHSII wrote:
    I will keep my Gary Gygax autographed 1st edition 1st printing monochrome copy, thank you very much. Cool


    I am sure that the 4e version will not make your original spontaneously combust Wink.

    Rouse announced the new Homlet in the context of showing the Role Playing aspects of the 4e system so I am curious how they are going to write this up myself. I am also curious if they are going to keep Homlet in the World of Greyhawk or if they are going use the less defined default assumptions of 4e's "The World."

    Ironically, the default world of 4e has been revealed a lot like Greyhawk was prior to the release of the folio. You get a bit here from an adventure or another bit in a line from the MM, DMG, or PH. And what are people doing? They are assembling the pieces to get the big picture. Sound familiar.
    Site Theocrat

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    Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:57 am  
    Re: Village of Homlet 4e Coming

    Saracenus wrote:
    Scott Rouse posted up an enworld about a recap of a seminar he did at a con.... he let it drop Village of Homlet will see a 4e version..
    Enjoy, discuss...
    ~~Saracenus


    You Bastard. You Killed Greyhawk. Enjoy, Discuss....
    Enjoy What? Discuss......what? The Lamentation Of The World of Greyhawk?
    It was known that this would happen, even if all they do is import Homlet into their Points of Light world.
    Again, all the more reason to further move to WoG 2.0. Golarion is what Greyhawk could be with love and attention.
    Be Well. Be Well and Long Lived.
    Theocrat Issak
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    Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:44 am  

    Think of all the money they can make if they convert all the 1e mods into 4e. Maybe people will buy them just to see what the differences are. Laughing

    Ummm, Ill pass.
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    Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:57 am  

    Scott seemed to generally dislike the combat all the time aspect that 4E has garnered, and wanted it changed to both combat and story. This is encouraging. Hopefully DMG2 for 4E will be as good for DMs as DMG 2 for 3.5 was. And I imagine their treatment of Homlet will be similar to the treatment of Saltmarsh in 3.5's DMG 2. A bunch of description, a new map, and a bunch of adventure ideas, including social adventures/skill challlenges.

    I seriously doubt either T1-4 or the Return modules will be touched. Rather there will be some loosely applicable stuff that takes all that into account and presents new adventures (that will give folks ideas in case they want to update the older modules). Just my thoughts though.
    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:13 pm  
    Re: Village of Homlet 4e Coming

    I think Hommlet already had a "Points of Light" presumption. After the Hateful Wars, there are no longer enough dwarves, gnomes, and elves to defend the region against bandits and monsters, so opportunists from the Wild Coast begin raiding the settlements there. With the great powers far away, the authorities of Verbobonc leave the borderlands villages to fend for themselves, islands of sanity in a land savage enough that temples of utter evil can be constructed unmolested.

    Of course, eventually things get bad enough that the forces of Good do send troops in to deal with the situation, resulting in the Battle of Emridy Meadows. But it's a tribute to how Points of Light-y the area was that the Temple was built at all. For a time, it must have been a region where people were terrified to leave the comparative safety of their hamlets. After Emridy Meadows, things get better for a while, but within a decade they've darkened again. Verbobonc must have very few troops to spare. Outside of village militias, the place is a wilderness.
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    Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:32 pm  

    Exactly!

    This (and Anced Math's description of travel to me when he first started explaining Greyhawk to me and how folks get around) is why I have always been confused by the sentiment that points of light and greyhawk don't go together.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:02 pm  
    Re: Village of Homlet 4e Coming

    TheocratIssak wrote:
    It was known that this would happen, even if all they do is import Homlet into their Points of Light world.
    Again, all the more reason to further move to WoG 2.0.


    Just to be sure, is WoG 2.0 Greyhawk with social networking built into it? Sort of a Facebook.com, you know, Facehawk <G>.

    All kidding aside, the only info released so far on 4e Homlet is that there will be one. We don't know if it will be Greyhawk specific (or not) nor do we know where it will be published (not likely the DMG2).

    I would save the death of Greyhawk stuff until we know what is coming. It could be good, it could be bad until then chill a little.

    My two coppers,

    ~~Saracenus
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    Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:41 pm  

    I think the more greyhawk we see in 4E the better. If you actually sit down and read the books you can not help but see Oerth peeking back at you.
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    Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:25 am  

    I'd be happy to see a 4e version. They've already done the Moathouse. Each edition places its own spin. 3e turned Hommlett into a cosmopolitan mix of humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, and barbarian halflings (shudder). No doubt 4e will bung in some dragonborn blacksmith and deva greengrocer (shudders again). I prefer it as an insular, superstitious mix of ungrateful humans but modern kids may not find that appealing.

    The 3e version of Saltmarsh in DMG2 wasn't my Saltmarsh. I thought LG did a better job of capturing that spirit. However, convert it to a word document and edit all references from Saltmarsh to Seaton, take out the inappropriate core 3e temples and replace them with region-appropriate GH gods and the write-up works quite well for the capital of Salinmoor.

    I expect the 4e write-up will be similarly useful if you want to play a 4e GH, which I do. A lot of the stuff I will disregard but I will be interested to see how the write-ups on the npcs work. I'll be converting Age of Worms to 4e and some other classics mods too. Thhis might prove a useful article and it might lead to some Dragon articles with conversion details for GH religions and divinity feats.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:13 pm  

    I honestly don't get the whole "Points of Light" thing. When I first heard about it before the release of the game I was under the impression that they were going to be going back the style the game was written in 1st ed. Hell, even the old Basic box sets had that feel to them. Of course after having actually went through some of the 4th material all I was to discover was that everything was more homogenized then 3rd ed was and it seemed that they had completely dropped the whole points of light concept.

    Personally I hope that this is a sign of the resurgence of Greyhawk. It'll mean that there is actually some reason to buy the 4th ed books.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:09 pm  

    manus-nigrum wrote:
    Personally I hope that this is a sign of the resurgence of Greyhawk. It'll mean that there is actually some reason to buy the 4th ed books.


    Well there is a limit built into the 4e business model on how much campaign material is developed. The basic model is one each year containing the following:

    Campaign Guide (DM tool)
    Player's Guide
    Mega Adventure

    And then WotC is out and on to the next campaign.

    FR was the first (2008), Eberron is this years campaign(2009), and we don't know what next year will bring unless the Homlet slip is a harbinger of Greyhawk being the third campaign in 2010.

    Any other "campaign" support will come from Dragon and Dungeon magazine and us.

    Of course if the business model changes, who knows.

    ~~Saracenus
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    Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:25 am  

    Gods no Shocked . After fleeing the destruction of the Realms, I've just become comfortable on Oerth again. Now I shall once again have to flee before the coming of Galactus and the destruction of this world Sad
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    Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:19 am  

    If there's one thing that all Greyhawk fans can agree on, it's that GH is a fertile ground for thought provoking themes that can contribute to fun roleplaying. Maybe more so than some other more pulpy settings.

    And, the message of the day in 2009 is clearly more better pulp. That's the thing that everyone attempting to sell TRPG currently agrees on, whether it's the so called old school movement, Paizo, or the 4e product line.

    Which, as a side note is something that I find ironic in view of all the message board & blogger version warfare of the past year or so.

    Don't get me wrong, I love pulp. My own version of Greyhawk is a pretty pulpy place, but I've always felt that pulp can and should coexist with themes that draw from other sources to provide plenty of ammo for players' exploration of how their characters relate to the world.

    I didn't invent that, it's straight out of the playbooks of Gygax and Sargent, and others who followed in their footsteps.

    If the WotC people wish to leverage GH as a way of showcasing roleplaying possibilities using 4e, I'm all for it, and I'll buy it. It means that, at a bare minimum, someone in a business suit views that as a potential selling point rather than a liability.

    Sure, it's possible that all they'll do is strip mine content out of T1-4 and repackage it for use in the nebulous implied setting of 4e, but so what. GH is currently moribund. It's hard to see how it could get more dead.

    If the most that comes of it is a resurgence of interest in the style of TRPG play that I grew up with, that's ok too.

    nematode
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    Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:14 am  

    nematode wrote:

    Sure, it's possible that all they'll do is strip mine content out of T1-4 and repackage it for use in the nebulous implied setting of 4e, but so what. GH is currently moribund. It's hard to see how it could get more dead.
    nematode


    Frankenhawk. It's...alive?

    "He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." - Orwell

    The problem with polluting the Greyhawk stream with diluted and muddied revisions is that it makes it less likely that anything pure will ever again be produced to add to the canon collection. New authors will not know any better. New editors will think that something new produced that doesn't agree with the most recent production is flawed and inconsistent, even if it is more inline with more established canon. Producing heretical new stuff kills Greyhawk more effectively than not producing anything at all, IMHO.
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    Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:59 pm  

    IronGolem wrote:
    Producing heretical new stuff kills Greyhawk more effectively than not producing anything at all, IMHO.


    Anything WotC produces would be/will be Canon.
    I believe it is a good sign that GH related products are being considered just as I think the fact the GH is mentioned in quite a few of the new 4e books such as manual of the planes and draconomicon. If nothing else it shows that GH is still alive and that people at WotC are thinking about it.

    The GH community is a double edged sword in a way in that a lot of us spend lots of time whinging on that WotC has abandoned GH but let WotC release anything for GH and the torches and pitch forks come out. Example, I was a tester for DDO from late alpha all the way top beta two when I quit in disgust. At one point I asked the Devs why they chose Eberron and not FR or GH and the answer was that the Devs didn't want to have people criticizing and attacking every little thing they did that was not exactly canon. The Devs didn't want to listen to a torrent of complaints concerning the look of a sword or set of armor.
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    Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:40 pm  

    cennedi wrote:


    Anything WotC produces would be/will be Canon.
    I believe it is a good sign that GH related products are being considered just as I think the fact the GH is mentioned in quite a few of the new 4e books such as manual of the planes and draconomicon..


    Anything Wotc produces for 4e that involves Greyhawk but that uses the 4e cosmology is not immediately canon unless and until Wotc reconciles/explains how the 1e/2e/3e cosmology/continuity changed to the 4e cosmology/continuity; otherwise what Wotc produces is a faux/doppleganger/alternate multiverse/mirror-mirror Greyhawk - at best. Never before in Greyhawk's history has it been possible to say the IP holder nay but there is now an objective, contextually based means to do so; at least until Wotc explains itself in terms of its own context. Unless and until that time, 4e Greyhawk will at a contextual level contradict non-4e Greyhawk in terms of basic cosmology, to say nothing of in setting specific/historic continuity, and must then be accounted as "other" and hence not canon in any meaningful sense of the term.
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    Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:11 pm  

    GVD,

    Are you seriously going to get in a canon pissing match with the IP holder of Greyhawk. Good luck with that.

    Frankly, we don't have to use 4e Greyhawk if we don't like it, but the very definition of canon is material officially published (with a few notable exceptions) by the IP holder (or their licensees).

    Further, FR explained how the cosmology "transitioned" and it was a bit harsh. I think I will settle for a hand wave and just move forward with the new cosmology and not worry about a transition since it seems worse than the end result. It will be interesting how Eberron deals with the new cosmology hopefully they will use less of a hammer and more finesse in the new Eberron.

    Have fun,

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    Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:20 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Anything Wotc produces for 4e that involves Greyhawk but that uses the 4e cosmology is not immediately canon unless and until Wotc reconciles/explains how the 1e/2e/3e cosmology/continuity changed to the 4e cosmology/continuity; otherwise what Wotc produces is a faux/doppleganger/alternate multiverse/mirror-mirror Greyhawk - at best.


    Like many of us, I have followed the Greyhawk line from the 83 set, From the Ashes, TAB, and LGG. Please explain what Greyhawk material would be invalidated by use of the 4E cosmology/continuity, as I just don't see what it would possibly affect.
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    Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:40 am  

    4e Greyhawk mods would not be canon because 4e is NOT Dungeons & Dragons as far I am concerned, despite the title on the covers of the books. However, if they were to put out a Greyhawk gazateer, edited by a competitent Greyhawk historian, that didn't rely heavily on the 4e rules set, I'd consider that canon IF they incorporated at least some of the LG results (say, one major or minor event from each region for each year the campaign was running).
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    Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:39 am  

    cennedi wrote:
    At one point I asked the Devs why they chose Eberron and not FR or GH and the answer was that the Devs didn't want to have people criticizing and attacking every little thing they did that was not exactly canon. The Devs didn't want to listen to a torrent of complaints concerning the look of a sword or set of armor.


    It takes a lot of time and effort to become familiar with the history of a product line. It may be that developers do not typically have the time or incentive to do that kind of research before producing a new product for that line. In the absense thorough research, a pre-existing familiarity and love of the product line is crucial to producing a quality product. I think Paizo is the perfect example of how this is done right. Erik Mona clearly has a love and familiarity with Greyhawk that made the adventure paths in Dungeon a joy to read.
    GreySage

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    Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:40 am  

    OleOneEye wrote:
    GVDammerung wrote:
    Anything Wotc produces for 4e that involves Greyhawk but that uses the 4e cosmology is not immediately canon unless and until Wotc reconciles/explains how the 1e/2e/3e cosmology/continuity changed to the 4e cosmology/continuity; otherwise what Wotc produces is a faux/doppleganger/alternate multiverse/mirror-mirror Greyhawk - at best.


    Like many of us, I have followed the Greyhawk line from the 83 set, From the Ashes, TAB, and LGG. Please explain what Greyhawk material would be invalidated by use of the 4E cosmology/continuity, as I just don't see what it would possibly affect.


    Well, any use of a succubus or cambion as a creature of the Abyss. Iuz could stay, since Graz'zt is supposed to be a former devil now, so Iuz would technically still be a cambion by the 4e definition. The succubus rulers Malcanthet, Red Shroud, and Shami-Amourae would have to be edited out of the Savage Tide adventure path (and all three were crucial to it, so I really don't know what you'd do here), though, since succubi no longer have a place in the Abyss. Any mention of demons as tempters of mortals rather then engines of pure destruction (such as the possessor demon Xazivort in From the Ashes) would have to be changed to devils.

    The Vale of the Lamia in the Abbor-Alz would have to go, since lamias have been retconned as fey. Graz'zt would no longer be a patron of lamias either, since they've been turned into a completely different creature (maybe the lamia of previous editions could be renamed). Enstad would likely be retconned as a city that spends part of its time in the Feywild (which wouldn't be a huge deal). Any mention of gnome kingdoms on the material plane (such as the one in the Kron Hills) would be suspect and require some rationalization. Grey elves now all have the ability to teleport using the Feywild, and gnomes have the power to turn invisible.

    Halflings are river-traveling nomads like the Rhennee, only about four feet in height. Dwarves no longer have the ability to see in the dark, and their strongholds are primarily above ground.

    Mentions of powerful daemons such as Anthraxus (for example, in the Gord books, and in the GDQ supermodule) would probably have to be eliminated, since they have no place in the 4e cosmology. Less powerful daemons such has Tul-oc-luc from Isle of the Ape could remain, perhaps as a raavasta.

    Mentions of the Fading Lands would be replaced with mentions of the Feywild or Shadowfell, which would be fine, but still a change.

    A big part of 4e continuity is Orcus's attempt to replace the Raven Queen as ruler of the Shadowfell; it's difficult to square this with Oerth's gods of death.

    Of course, the plot of Q1 was invalidated the moment the powers of lesser gods were increased in 2nd edition. While lesser gods are somewhat more in reach of epic-level mortals in 4th edition, Lolth remains alive and she has not conquered Sterich as she was supposed to do if the PCs failed to kill her. Again, this is a problem with every edition after the first rather than 4th specifically, but it's a problem with 4th as well.

    The climax of Return to the Tomb of Horrors is pretty drastically changed if you have to set it on the Shadowfell rather than the Negative Energy Plane. Ditto with other adventures set in the Negative Energy Plane, such as the recent "Castle Perilous" adventure in one of the last 3e-era Dungeons, which involved a simulacrum of Acererak.

    All the mentions of the Blood War and a rivalry between demons and devils in the From the Ashes-era material would likely have to be edited. Any attempt to use other 1st, 2nd, or 3rd edition planar material is rendered much more difficult with the Abyss or Limbo no longer in the Outer Planes. A substantial body of related canon, like Dragon ecologies that depended on previous versions of monsters (for example, the shadar-kai and devourer), is invalidated. This isn't a Greyhawk-specific issue, but it's certainly a problem in long-running Greyhawk campaigns that made use of these resources.

    The lack of a chaotic good alignment in 4th edition alters the presentation of gods like Trithereon and Kord. There are similar issues with the lack of a lawful neutral or neutral evil alignment. One could argue that the new alignments don't change the way a character is played, but in practice I think there's a substantial psychological difference when Trithereon and Pelor have the same listed alignment.

    The way dweornite worked in Iuz the Evil was dependent on the Vancian magic system to make sense. Not campaign-breaking, by any means, but definitely a change.

    The seemingly compulsory inclusion of dragonborn and tieflings as major races would have quite dramatic repercussions in the Flanaess.

    4th edition druids, who gain their powers from the natural world, would seem to have little reason to revere gods like Obad-hai.

    Now, granted, almost any of this could be ignored while still using the 4th edition rules. And some of these changes are bigger than others, and whether or not any of them are a big deal to you personally is a matter of taste. Replacements for older creatures who have been made unrecognizable could be invented. New planes or planar connections could be added as needed. One could even invent or hand-wave new alignments. You don't need to scatter dragonborn, goliaths, devas, and tieflings in every hamlet. However, WotC is unlikely to make any such concessions. 4th edition has its own themes and tropes that, judging from our experience in how the Forgotten Realms was converted, seem to be required inclusions in every 4th edition setting. While much of it isn't necessarily bad in itself, it feels to me like a very idiosyncratic, alien campaign setting, like an Eberron or a Dark Sun, rather than the D&D I'm familiar with, and overwriting it on Greyhawk substantially changes Greyhawk as well.
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    Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:20 am  

    LOL! I had just composed a response and Rasgon beat me thoroughly well and good to the punch! Bravo! What he said!

    4e explicitly and implicitly does not square with 30 plus years of Greyhawk's presentation.

    The IP holder can call anything "Greyhawk" but that doesn't make it canon as canon begins with the IP holder but is then contextualized by the consensus of the customers (e.g., "Funny" Castle Greyhawk, Rose Estes etc.). Thus, as was also well put, a Yugo does not become a Corvette with just a rebranding/name change.

    4e must explain itself in terms of GH to be other than some alternate universe version of Greyhawk. Maybe Vecna somehow really won in "Die, Vecna, Die" with heretofore unrealized results for the cosmos, including Oerth? Maybe Zagyg outsmarted himself and the multiverse and screwed around with reality one time too many with consequences? Maybe Greyhawk is just a consensual dream of the villagers of Hommlet and it never had any other reality? And they just woke up in the 4e Hommlet? SOMETHING needs to reconcile 4e and established Greyhawk or the result is suspect at the least. Then again its maybe best to just have 4e leave the GH IP alone!
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