Okay, this is the ultimate mid trip so stop here if you DON'T want to waste your time digressing on a purely time-wasting topic :).
I absolutely understand that you can name your character every way you want, since this is a fantasy game. However Gygax left us with a delicious chapter on Flanaess names and a very broad study of onomastics in our beloved region for us to follow.
I believe onomastics should get a bit more consideration during game design.
It seems that Gary himself was the first one to not completely respect what written on the first chapter of the Greyhawk Campaign Setting boxed set.
Have any of you noticed that almost all of the characters in City of Greyhawk, even low-life commoners, have a proper family name? Take just two famous ones, Nerof Gasgal and Org Nenshen. What do you know about the Gasgal and Nenshen families? I always assumed the two friends had poor upbringings, but what beggar or commoner has a family name? Out of curiosity I checked the wikipedia article on surnames and that confirmed what was suggested by Gygax in the first setting box: surnames are a relatively new custom, and should not be addressed in a medieval fantasy world.
I have come to think that Gasgal and Nenshen are indeed towns... or old local Oeridian dialect terms that indicate some quality like "quick" or "blonde".
After reading the saga of Ice and Fire I also noticed how curious it is that in Greyhawk you can't find two characters with the same name. I would assume a city like Greyhawk has at least a dozen individuals named Nerof... Nerof the gravedigger, Nerof the nightwatchman etc.
Another consideration is that you can abrely tell a person's origin by his name. Just by the sound of a name you can generally, in our world, tell that Mikko is a Finnish name, or Sergey is Russian. But how exactly does an Oeridian or Flan name sound like? Has enyone exploited onomastics in Greyhawk? This could be a very, very interesting article for Caninfire I think.
I know most names from GH were originally just anagrams, but maybe we can work something out of them.
Putting aside the notions as you said this is a very intriguing topic. Your solution that Gasgal and Nenshen are adjective last names is pretty smart. Your assessment of their low upbringing to rulers of the city absolutely reinforces the need to change their names if those are even their real names anyhow! Others like Turin Deathstalker are obviously using a surname to evoke fear/comemorate career exploits/etc, whereas his first name Turin should be a common first name in Oeridian lands.
This leads me to Tolkien, which I happen to be reading currently. In the Children of Hurin, Hurin is Lord of the house of Hador, named for his father Hador Goldenhead. I am pretty sure Goldenhead only appears in the first sentence of Chapter 1. Otherwise he is known a Hurin Thalion by the Elves or Hurin of the House of Hador. From there on Hurin's son Turin accumulates an array of assumed names through the course of the book mostly derived from episodes in his life:
Turin Turambar ("Master of Doom")
Neithan ("The Wronged")
Gorthol ("Dread-Helm")
Agarwaen ("the Bloodstained")
Adanedhel ("Elf-Man")
Mormegil ("Black Sword")
So yes I like your solution of derived surnames based on qualities or nicknames. Good stuff!
At the risk of embarassing myself for posting from work without access to my books, I didn't think Gary had written anything about naming conventions in the '83 boxed set. I thought those examples (e.g., "Grimmri Fischer the Jester") had first appeared in From the Ashes.
opps you're right, I was writing from work too.
I must have been confused with Forgotten Realms (heresy!).
In any case I think the doubt was legitimate.
Either way, why wouldn't some poor schmuck without a family name who had risen to prominence(such as "Nerof the Whoremaster") not make up a respectable name for himself?
"Shall I warm you tea for you Lord Mayor Whoremaster?"
or...
"Please be sure that Queen Yolande's envoy is instructed to address me as 'Lord Mayor Whoremaster'."
_________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Even if you make up your family name for yourself, I gues sit should be somewhat related to "something", whatever it is, and not just a random string of characters... I guess!
In our own history, we have Erik the Red, a famous viking named for his flaming red hair.
His son, Leif, was simply known as; Leif, Erik's son. But, in today's history books, it translates into -- Leif Eriksson.
My own family name actually means; "Son of Heregod."
(Nope, I have no idea who Heregod was. But, I am trying to find out. )
I've read several publications on the origins of names. Names came from everywhere and everything. For instance:
"John Carpenter" -- Forefather was a carpenter.
"John Miller" -- Forefather was a miller
"John Ferrier" -- Forefather was a ferrier.
The Scots and Irish use "Mc" or "Mac" in their surnames, which simply means "Son of." A friend of mine is named McLoughlin = "Son of Laughlin." The Hebrews use "ben," the Arabs use "bar," it's the same thing; "Son of."
The books give many more examples. In truth, all "family names" were -- in effect -- made up. Then they were "inherited." Surnames became more common as mankind multiplied, so as to distinguish one "John" from another and not to make anyone of them "special."
I believe that names in the mideval World of Greyhawk would function in much the same way. I don't see why it would be different from the real world development of names. _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
Yes, names generally have a patriarchal origin or origintat4e from a profession, and also place names as well("Jack of London" becomes "Jack London").
Now, that isn't to say that some roguish sort wouldn't just make up a last name that they liked the sound of, and that is unique. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Use of a surname could also be based on how much you really need one, but if patterned after our own history, and assuming a European model, probably uses a pretty loose system. If you're a noble or gentleman who might get around quite a bit or be known over a wide geographical area, you would probably want to be distinct from all the other Thrommels or Belvors in Furyondy, so you might attach a geographical locator, e.g., Thrommel of Brancast to distinguish yourself from Thrommel of Heldarn. You also might distinguish yourself by a well-known nickname, e.g. Thrommel Curtmantle. If our boy Thrommel gets famous enough, like Geoffrey V of Anjou, founder of the house of Plantagenet, his descendants might be able to get away with calling themselves the Curtmantles, so his grandson Belvor might be known as Belvor Curtmantle, although he could still have another nickname that he goes by. Likewise they could use a geographic name if it gets identified with the family and be known as the Brancasts. Given the examples in Marklands and other places I think this is the most likely system. Surnames like Jakartai and Tyneman are most likely nicknames that are used either to identify that particular individual or has been adopted by a family. The family of the rulers of the March in Furyondy are known by the family name Derwent, so they are probably originally from a place called Derwent, though it doesn't show up on the map, so it's either very small or Derwent is a nickname of some famous ancestor.
Now by contrast, take for example Thrommel, the son of Brancast's miller, Gaereth. He's probably never going too far from Brancast so he might be able to get away with just being known as Thrommel. Except Thrommel is probably a popular name, so he needs to distinguish himself from Thrommel the son of Jemian the cooper, and Thrommel the son of Hymend the smith, so he's probably going to be Thrommel Gaereth's son, or just Thrommel the miller's son. When they all grow up and take over from their fathers, he's probably going to want to be known as Thrommel Miller, or Miller Thrommel, just so no one thinks he makes barrels or works iron. A good example of this is Ostler Gundigoot in Hommlet. Ostler is his profession (Ostler= stablemaster or innkeeper) and Gundigoot is probably his given name. His wife likewise is known as Goodwife Gundigoot, goodwife being her title and taking Gundigoot from the name her husband is known by.
The smelly end of the stick goes to the peasants since they don't really have any profession to inherit or for their father's to distinguish their names with. All the peasant Thrommels in Brancast probably get stuck with names like Thrommel Bennal's son, unless they're lucky (or unlucky) enough to have picked up a nickname in which case they might be something like Big Thrommel, Fat Thrommel, Dim Thrommel, or when he gets old and batty, Foul Ole Thrommel, You Kids Stay Away From His Hovel.
("Jack of London" becomes "Jack London") . . . Now, that isn't to say that some roguish sort wouldn't just make up a last name that they liked the sound of, and that is unique.
Thanks, man! I did base Foul Ole Thrommel on Foul Ole Ron from Pratchett's Discworld books, so I only steal from the best. The peasant section put me in mind of one of George RR Martin's "Hedge Knight" novellas, where the main characters were training militia for the local lord and ended up with 3 Wats, 2 of them brothers, from villages that didn't have names. So they named them after their village crops. But since the brothers were from the same village one of them was dubbed Wet Wat, for some reason I can't remember, and the others were Barleycorn Wat, and Melon Wat. There's comedy gold in this for roleplaying situations.
After reading the saga of Ice and Fire I also noticed how curious it is that in Greyhawk you can't find two characters with the same name. I would assume a city like Greyhawk has at least a dozen individuals named Nerof... Nerof the gravedigger, Nerof the ightwatchman etc...
-Actually, I do re-use names, for just that reason.
MToscan wrote:
...Just by the sound of a name you can generally, in our world, tell that Mikko is a Finnish name, or Sergey is Russian. But how exactly does an Oeridian or Flan name sound like? Has enyone exploited onomastics in Greyhawk? This could be a very, very interesting article for Caninfire I think...
...and I re-use names, for the same reason.
Off the top of my head, I noticed that:
Keoish names end in "-os";
Suel names have a lot of "Ls" and "Vowels";
Bakluni names are mostly pseudo-Arabic (with Persian, Turk, Mongol, Central Asian thrown in).
BTW, this doesn't directly deal with personal names, but most GHers try to equate the Flan to Celts (because of Geoff), or Indians (the Rovers), or East Africans (their looks), but the obviosly Germanic "Drachsengrab" (Dragon's Grave, or perhaps Dragon's Canyon) is supposed to be a Flan word as is "Eiger" (Ogre).
BTW, this doesn't directly deal with personal names, but most GHers try to equate the Flan to Celts (because of Geoff), or Indians (the Rovers), or East Africans (their looks), but the obviosly Germanic "Drachsengrab" (Dragon's Grave, or perhaps Dragon's Canyon) is supposed to be a Flan word as is "Eiger" (Ogre).
Well, Geoff (Geoffrey) is a Germanic name. The importance of bards, druids, and standing stones in Flan culture is what makes them Celtic. On the other hand, the Flan of Sulm built pyramids and were probably more similar to Egyptians or Mesopotamians, at least superficially (I think of them as Babylonians, since scorpion-men come from Babylonian mythology).
This is something I've been working on using the EBoN, canon sources and my own ideas. I wrote an article on the onomastics, toponymy and anthroponymy of Irongate (http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=914), and am slowly working on more such items. I have taken to breaking down the names by race, and then exploring the influence they have on each other as the races migrated and mingled. Absolutely surnames are a relatively new construct, and shouldn't be common among the populations of the Flanaess. Most folk should have a given name with a nickname, honorific, "son of...", location or job. Some names should indeed be common, like "John", "Mike", "James", etc. Names should conform to regions, and thus names in Nyrond shouldn't sound like names in Keoland, Ratik or Ket. This is a topic near and dear to me, and is a long project of love for me. Thanks for bringing it up! _________________ Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
Well, Geoff (Geoffrey) is a Germanic name. The importance of bards, druids, and standing stones in Flan culture is what makes them Celtic.
Bare in mind that the Celtic tribes once inhabited all of Europe, before the advent of the Germanic tribes. The Greeks -- including Alexander -- had trouble with the Keltoi. The Celts even murdered the Oracle and robbed the Temple at Delphi!
Damn heathens!
There would undoubtedly have been some level of cultural influence upon the Germanic peoples from this fact.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
)
