Enter the North American plains tribes southern "cousins" . . . the Aztec, Inca and Maya!
Well, we already have the Olman as a parallel of the Central American nations. The Flan seem to be something else entirely. I think the native Americans are a poor parallel to them.
I did not necessarily mean as a "direct" comparison; but Gary DID base them off of Native American and Aboriginal groups; much as the Oeridians are a kind of Mediterranean peoples (Roman in appearence, but Frank-like in nature), Baklunish are Persian/Arabic and the Suel are Northern European/Albino-esque in appearence and a culture that's not easily compared to any in history.
Later on; for some bizarre reason, some of the Living Greyhawk people decided to make the Flan rather Celt like; personally, I don't like this at all: there's enough Celtic-esque fantasy stuff out there to choke a horse; I rather like the Native American/Aboriginal aspect of the Flan.
To build on what others are saying: yes, I agree that many of the Flan's ancient cities/kingdoms were quite advanced.....I rather like the comparison of the Mayan/Aztec/Iriquous and more nomadic Native Americans like the Plains groups. Also; while my comparison was a general one; not an absolute one; it's a free DM's world out there; shape your vision of Oerth as you like and I'll do the same.
I did not necessarily mean as a "direct" comparison; but Gary DID base them off of Native American and Aboriginal groups
While the Rovers are clearly based on Plains Indians, at least partially, in an interview, Gygax said he actually had "Hamitic" African groups in mind for the Flan - at least appearance-wise - and denied any Australian Aborigine connection.
The Celtic comparison comes from the druidic nature of the Flan religion, and the fact that bards are connected to druids in 1st edition AD&D (and thus the Old Lore bards in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer). I was a bit chagrined by this at first, since I originally had the Flan as pure American Indian analogues, but I now think the comparison is inevitable. Plus, if you're going to put stone circles in the Flanaess, it'd be weird for the native humans not to have religious rites in them - and that's another Celtic similarity (not that the historical Celts erected stone circles, but they did use them).
I wouldn't want the Flan to be too Celtic in nature, but some amount can't be avoided.
But anyway, many of the major Flan kingdoms don't seem either native American or Celtic in nature. And Oerth already has Aztecs.
You know you'er absolutely right....I was remembering that piece with Gary wrong....for some reason, I was 'remembering' that he HAD compared them with Austrailian Aborigines....DOH!
Yeah, I agree with you about the stone circles and the Druidic/Bardic ties; I was thinking more along the appearence and everyday life in comparison. When Living Greyhawk was going on, I looked into it a bit and when they made the Flan of Geoff sound like a medievil English/Scottish/Irish analog, I just got annoyed.....
Anyway; as I said before; I certainly agree that many of the "long ago" cities/nature of the Flan were much more advanced in many way that the Flan societies of recent history. Greyhawk seems to have quite a bit of "lost cities of long-forgotten advanced societies"....
I think of the Flan as more Celtic, than native american.
Both the Celts, and their predecessors the Picts (not related) painted themselves for war, just as the native americans did. Then there is the Stonehenge angle and the druids. The Celts were also metal workers at a very early date. Yes, the Flan are much more Celtic in nature than they are native north american.
And of course, these are not all the comparisons that can be made.
By the way, the French are decended from the Germanic Franks, cousins of the Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Danes, Norse, et al. They are of Nordic descent, not Mediterranean descent. _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
Ok, I thought that the whole Flan/Celtic thing was outlined in The Bane of Llywelyn and To Find a King? Not saying I don't believe you guys or anything but wheres this EGG interview that I can see where he says that they're African?
They're supposedly dark skinned but there are Dark Skinned Celts as well. When people think of Celts today most people think of the Irish but they started out somewhere in Eastern Russia, moved along the Med. Coast and into the Iberian Peninsula and Gaul before ever moving into Ireland. That being the case it seems like Spanish Celts would be the ideal basis for them.
I don't know where that interview took place, sorry.
But the Celts, as you pointed out, were raiding the ancient Greeks before the time of Alexander.
And the Canaanites were "Hamitic," descended from Ham's son Canaan, the actual recipient of Noah's curse. The ancient Canaanites did not look any different than modern day Palastinians, or Syrians do. They were not African in appearence, so the Flan need not be very dark skinned either. _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
Ok, I thought that the whole Flan/Celtic thing was outlined in The Bane of Llywelyn and To Find a King?
Those aren't Greyhawk modules, and they don't mention the Flan. They're generic tournament modules set in the kingdom of Pellham on no particular world.
If presenting them as dark-skinned Celts works for you, awesome. Out of curiosity, are the Rovers presented as primarily Celtic in your campaign as well?
But personally, I'm with maxvale on this question. I think the Flan are more interesting if they've got heavy non-European influences; otherwise the Flanaess is too much an analogue of Europe for my tastes. I like that it's more mixed-up than that, and dungeons can be found buried on the continent that might resemble more the work of Mesopotamian, Egyptian, or more fantastic peoples.
The interview in question (or, at least, an interview - I don't think this is the one I was thinking of) is preserved here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/archive-threads/121380-gary-gygax-q-part-viii-9.html#post2071627. What Gygax said was, "I can say that the Flan were not meant to be anything like the American Indians. they were of Hamatic-like racial origin, Negroes if you will. Little is known of them because they were generally absorbed into the waves of other peoples immigrating eastwards through the continent, so their culture was generally lost."
So yes, it does sound like they were meant to be African in appearance, though as noted in the 1983 boxed set [page 13] their skin ranges from a lighter, almost coppery tone to "deepest brown."
I don't want the Flanaess to be strictly "European" in "flavor," either. But I will remind you that some of the peoples we are talking about here were actually separated by oceans and continents on our own real world, thus our many differing delvelopemental stages.
Oerth needs to reflect just a little of that too. For innumerable cultures to develop totally separate and completely distinct on the same continent is straining it a bit. Even Russians exhibit some "asiatic" traits gleaned from their more oriental neighbors. _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
IMC the Flan and Rhenee are more Mediterranean in appearance. The Rovers and Nomads are based off of of various semi-nomadic cultures but their appearance is dark/olive skinned, with Flan being taller on average then their Rhenee counter parts.
How do you pronounce Rhenee by the way? I always pronounce it Ren-ee.
I've heard it both ren-ee like you mention and ren-a (long A sound)...I have no idea which is correct....
Also, I was saying that the Oeridians were Mediterranean in appearence (olive-complected, brown haired people) and Frankish in culture (when the first appeared and were aggressively expanding to the east)....that's my take on them anyway!
As for the Flan; I have always seen them as African/Native American in appearence and while the day to day life of Flan in Geoff is quite different from those in Tenh which in turn is quite different from those of the Rovers of the Barrens; in general, I see them as a more native-american kind of people in everyday life. This is just my take....as I said before; I'm all "Celt-ed" out in fantasy....
Also, I love History and I'm well aware of the migration of the Celts and that they were beign mentioned as far back in history as ancient Greece and Rome.....I was just thinking that to most people I know, if you say Celtic, probably the first thing they think of (other than the NBA team in Boston, ) is Irish/English/Scottish peoples with paint on thier faces, fighting the Romans; the Fey, etc., etc.
Again, to each thier own; but I'm with Rasgon; I like some non European flavor to my Flaness!
By the way; I have no idea how we got here from talking about Mordy's sudden hair-style change! Sorry for de-railing the thread!
I remember reading somewhere that Gygax conceived the Rovers as being similar to some of the Russian steppe cultures, such as the Cossacks. I remember seeing pics of some early AD&D Greyhawk lead figures, and the Rovers in that series certainly looked like Cossacks to me.
That said, IMC, Rovers are very plains Indianesque.
I think the first hard association we saw of the Rovers=plains Indians was in the Dungeon adventure "Ghost Dance," and their status as such became solidified.
The Flan of the Sheldomar, of course, seem very Celtic, and their dark skin can be equated with the swarthy Picts.
The people of Tenh, despite their Africanesque heraldry, I see much like former plains Indians who assimilated & adopted the pseudo-European culture of the Oeridians & Suel. No jokes about casinos, please.
Sulm I see as more of a Mesopotamian-influenced culture, neither Celt or Amerind. Their descendants I see somewhat like the Berbers or other nomadic tribes of Northern Africa.
The Flan of Perrenland & Veluna I'm not sure on--perhaps Picts who adopted the prevailing Oeridian culture?
For innumerable cultures to develop totally separate and completely distinct on the same continent is straining it a bit.
Nah. The Hellfurnace/Crystalmist/Yatil range is justification enough for making the Flannae culture very different from the Oeridians, Suel, and Baklunish who originated on the other side. While Native Americans were separated from Europeans by an ocean, the Flan aren't Native Americans, and the Oeridians aren't Europeans. And the amount of cultures in the Flanaess (or in Oerik, for that mater) is hardly innumerable.
Robbastard's comparisons are very close to my thoughts on the matter, actually, though I'd prefer to take the Celtic interpretation of the Sheldomar Flan with a grain of salt (though certainly, the influence is there in my mind, I also like the Mesopotamian-looking appearance in the Vecna: Hand of the Revenant comic book). The best thing about the Greyhawk races is that, first and foremost, they're fantasy races - and that means we can do whatever we want with them without fear of historical comparisons limiting us. If someone wants the Flan to have big stone castles or pyramids or even facial piercings, they can have them without anyone having to worry about whether or not the Celts or American Indians or any other real-world culture had those things.
And yes, the Oeridians and Rhennee are both said to be olive-skinned. The Flan are bronze or brown-skinned.
I don't know where that interview took place, sorry.
But the Celts, as you pointed out, were raiding the ancient Greeks before the time of Alexander.
And the Canaanites were "Hamitic," descended from Ham's son Canaan, the actual recipient of Noah's curse. The ancient Canaanites did not look any different than modern day Palastinians, or Syrians do. They were not African in appearence, so the Flan need not be very dark skinned either.
In biblical terms the Canaanites were Hamitic, but so were the Egyptians, Cushites, and Libyans. This led to 19th century racial theory proposing a Hamitic sub-group of Caucasoids including dark-skinned groups in northeastern Africa who weren't classified as Negroid. This kind of racial thinking is now out of date. It also referred until fairly recently to non-Semitic Afroasiatic language groups and by extension among some to the people that spoke those languages. I think this is probably what Gygax was referring to, so he would have been speaking about Chadians, Ethiopians, and Somalis.
This is how I've pictured them for some time so it was kind of nice for me to see that Gygax thought along those lines.
As far as their culture I see it in a way similar to Rasgon, although I think they probably developed iron-working on their own, or at least learned it from Dwarves pre-Migration, although some groups may have lost that technology. Pre-migration I see them existing in several different ethnic groups that had a great deal of cultural variance, although they did share some similarities, the most notable that we know of being their pantheon of dieties.
Culturally I see the Rovers more as a fusion of Siberian nomads and Plains Indians. The Tenh are related to them though they have adopted much of Oeridian civilization while maintaining their independence. The Stoneholders are somewhere in between with heavy Rhizian influence.
The Hellfurnace/Crystalmist/Yatil range is justification enough for making the Flannae culture very different from the Oeridians, Suel, and Baklunish who originated on the other side.
Actually, Rasgon, o'wiki tutor of mine, I was speaking about the differences being spoken about between the Flan "tribes" themselves, who were not separated by either oceans or vast mountain ranges.
I'm saying that -- culturally speaking -- there shouldn't be so great a difference between the various Flan tribes of the Flanaess as we see between native americans and europeans. The Flan tribes should be more culturally aligned then is being spoken of here.
In biblical terms the Canaanites were Hamitic, but so were the Egyptians, Cushites, and Libyans. This led to 19th century racial theory proposing a Hamitic sub-group of Caucasoids including dark-skinned groups in northeastern Africa who weren't classified as Negroid. This kind of racial thinking is now out of date.
Small digression here:
Actually, its the phrase "biblical terms" that is out of date. The bible said nothing of race, it named the descendants of Shem, Japheth and Ham and from the names of these sons we get "place-names," so that we have a fair indication of where they all eventually settled.
Ham's son Canaan -- the one actually cursed -- did not father the black race. He fathered the Canaanites of the land of Canaan, a.k.a. Palestine. It was Ham's son Cush -- famous for "the land of Cush" -- who fathered Africans and Cush was not cursed, incidentally.
Japheth's son Javan (think Greece) fathered Tarshish (think Spain) and Kittim (think Cyprus), among others. Yep, the white people.
Now we have Shem the one especially blessed by God. Shem's sons currently speak Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese and Korean . . . to name but a few. Yep! The father of the yellow people was especially blessed by God.
I know what you're thinking Smillan! And the answer is no . . . I'm a son of Japheth.
I wasn't getting racial, Smillan, I was simply pointing out that, just because a person may be of Hamitic descent, that doesn't make them "dark of skin."
Our beloved EGG was incorrect to refer to the Flan as being Hamitic, because he envisioned them with dark skin. It would have been more proper for him to refer to having envisioned them as Cushites, who were dark of skin, but he should not have said Hamitic. All sons of Ham were not "dark of skin."
I'm saying that -- culturally speaking -- there shouldn't be so great a difference between the various Flan tribes of the Flanaess as we see between native americans and europeans. The Flan tribes should be more culturally aligned then is being spoken of here.
You disagree?
There are certainly cultural similarities between disparate Flan groups. I'm certainly not saying that some groups of Flan are literally identical to American Indians while others are identical to Celts or Mesopotamians or what have you, just that some members of this fantasy ethnic group may superficially resemble some real-world cultures more than others.
On the other hand, what we know as "Flan" should definitely have a wide variation between them, and they shouldn't be aligned in a single culture as such. The Flanaess is a big place, after all. So whether or not they should be "more culturally aligned than is being spoken of here," depends on what exactly you think is being spoken of here. My impression is that your impression of what's being spoken of is more exaggerated than my impression.
SO!! How about those Iriquois and Inca haircuts and decorations, and whatnot?!!
Icarus, you're a good friend and I really hate to disappoint, but . . .
The Iroquois did not all wear "that hair cut."
For their first two hundred years the Iroquois were known as "The Five Nations," but they "finished" their last fifty years as "The Six Nations," after having admitted the Tuscarora into the Confederacy. The Iroquois were the Oneida, Cayuga, Onondaga, Seneca and Mohawk.
Only the Mohawk wore "the hair cut," thus the name!
I realize this topic has been wandering a bit, but I thought I'd come in and set the record straight regarding Mordenkainen's hair.
The culprit was not Sam Wood, but Todd Lockwood. I happened to be visiting the Wizards of the Coast office when Todd was painting the cover for the TSR JAM product, which came out in 1999 (I think). The book contained a short adventure from each of TSR's campaign settings at the time, so Todd was asked to illustrate an iconic character from each of the various campaign settings. That's why you've got Elminster in there, a prominent tiefling character from Planescape, Raistlin, etc.
This was in the early days of the "Greyhawk '98" relaunch, and there weren't really any "iconic" Greyhawk characters, so they decided to use Mordenkainen. When I noticed that Todd had painted him bald, he said something like "that old disco haircut needed to go." It was basically a visual decision made my him because he thought the WG5 version looked dated.
He also mentioned to me at the time that the model for the painting was fellow TSR artist Fred Fields, who is apparently bald and looks pretty much like Mordenkainen does on that TSR cover (apparently--I've never met him).
An excellent account Iquander! Thanks for chiming in, it's always good to have your unique insight on Greyhawk's development. Artistic license like that makes perfect sense to me now. I know alot of art from 1st edition also has outfits sporting stuff like bell-bottoms or big collars and such that surely don't appear in current fantasy art.
I know alot of art from 1st edition also has outfits sporting stuff like bell-bottoms or big collars and such that surely don't appear in current fantasy art.
I think it would be refreshing to have some Jeff Dee bell-bottoms or Erol Otus funk-wear today, instead of the piercings, tattoos, irrationally oversized spikes, and phallic symbol weapons rampant in D&D lately. _________________ -Phil<br /><br />You can have my 1st Edition DMG when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
Well, thank you Iquander for the story. I remember TSR's Jam 99 Cover, too. The really first appearance of bald Mordy. The artist's choice, between Raistlin and Elminster, was baldness for contrast, because Mordenkainen could have also longer hair than in the late 70s (long hair and long beard like Gandalf, but he would have been to much like Elminster...).
[EDIT] I found the story from the point of view of the artist on his site.
On another cover : 1999 Greyhawk Player's Guide, I wonder who is the long grey haired man with a dog outside Greyhawk's walls? Does anyone know?
I never really looked at the detail of the Player's Guide cover painting. No idea if the guy is supposed to be anybody. The thing that really got my attention was all the gold onion domes. It makes Greyhawk look like a weird mushroom farm.
Well, I do have to say tha tI am glad that just a little up thread I asked if anyone knew where the bald depiction of Mordenkainen came from ... it is turning out to be very informative, and just plain fun!!
We've had Iquander come in (and we haven't seen Erik in here in ages! Good to see him!) and even a link to commentary by Todd Lockwood himself (the originator artist for baldness in Mordenkainen). I think that I have to like his reasoning ... not every archmage fills the stereotype of a long-haired old sage-looking fella. I think that this has definately given Mordy a bit of character that fits his persona a bit more ... a bit more brooding, more mysterious, and it even looks as though he has a darker side (which we all know tha the has one).
I know that I'm coming into this one late but I'll throw my 2 cents in anyway. There are plenty of reasons given above about the artist's decision to make him a baldy but how about an "in-game" reason?
I always figured that Mordenkainen just got busy. From a purely gaming perspective, the man gained 6 or 7 epic levels in less than 10 years!
My impression from the artwork I have seen of Mordenkainen is that his beard was always well groomed but his hair was, well.... kinda floppy. In other words he was vain about the beard but not the haircut. I can just see him getting so busy trying to restore balance to the flanaess that he couldn't be bothered wasting his time by visiting a barber periodically.
Therefore he shaves the hair more as a matter of course, as he doesn't have the inclination or time to groom the floppy hairdo but can't part with his beloved beard. As a bearded man myself, I can definitely see that. Anyway, the badarse look really works if you want to play the legend-a mysterious, scary advisor who pops in to manipulate this ruler or that and moves on to the next one. In the past he could afford to be the a puppetmaster, an unassuming hermit or merchant in disguise, but during and after the Greyhawk Wars he had to take a personal, very public hand in a variety of conflicts. He is now known and the cat is out of the bag, so to speak.
What's more, the continent is in turmoil in spiralling into worse! The archmage takes on a leaner, hungrier look because that is what the times call for and Mordenkainen (IMHO) does have something of an actor in his methods...
Smillan, is that your idea of "a fate worse than death?"
Nah man. I love having no hair now that I cut it all off. My hair was always a royal pain. Used to tangle like crazy. I had to condition and comb and all that crap. Now I just lather a little dimple of shampoo in, rinse and I'm good to go. Of course the ears get a little cold in winter.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises