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Adept Greytalker
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Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:36 pm
2010 Cannonfire Miniature: Iggwilv (Seductress)
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Okay, now that we have established which mini will be made, let us decide on a design. Everyone here pool your thoughts and lets make the mini we all want to paint!
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GreySage
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Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:25 pm
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A naked Iggwilv!
Too much? _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
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Journeyman Greytalker
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Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:15 am
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What about an Iggwilv with helmet and sword like the one in the Tzojcanth booklet?
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Master Greytalker
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Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:42 am
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Well the two illustrations on the recent covers of Dragon are a good start (can anybody remember the issue numbers?)
Are we sure that the sword-wielding figure isn't a version of Drelzna?
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Black Hand of Oblivion
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Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:49 am
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Not a good idea Paul. I'll have to quote myself:
Cebrion wrote: |
Just don't copy any art. Anything linked to something done under license to Paizo(or otherwise) links it to the IP itself. Do your own version. |
Trust me. You don't want to invest money and then get a cease and desist order. That is what is called "kicking your own arse." _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
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Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:25 am
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Design as in what is she doing. The pose. For starters how about something like holding an open (demonomicon) in the crook of her arm and raising her other arm in a flourish of a spell while leering.
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Journeyman Greytalker
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Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:30 am
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I like that better than flying around in a cauldron.
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Adept Greytalker
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Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:59 am
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Iggwilv's sedutress form reminds me of Morticia Addams. A revealing dress, though not nude (lusty but not lascivious), the Demonomicon as part of the fig in some way, possibly with a quasit familiar. A cold, confident and dismissive look on her face. A decorative base of a magic circle for her to stand in. Just some thoughts... _________________ Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
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Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:15 am
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Should the Lanthorn be included? It is an artifact and it is found with the book? Or perhaps the cage?
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Adept Greytalker
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Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:18 am
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I am liking the Demonomicon idea. I think an open magical book would be cool. I don't want to infringe on anyone's IP, so if someone can maybe come up with a costume idea from period dress or something, that would be nice.
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Grandmaster Greytalker
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Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:22 pm
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Zag's naughty young laughing librarian. _________________ Plar of Poofy Pants
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Master Greytalker
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Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:27 am
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Cebrion wrote: |
Not a good idea Paul. I'll have to quote myself:
Cebrion wrote: |
Just don't copy any art. Anything linked to something done under license to Paizo(or otherwise) links it to the IP itself. Do your own version. |
Trust me. You don't want to invest money and then get a cease and desist order. That is what is called "kicking your own arse." |
Tee hee - yeah, I wasn't suggesting copying the artwork exactly, but they did research what Iggy was said to look like when commissioning the work. Morticia Addams isn't a bad mental image actually, although in terms of coloration, I felt they copped out and made her too pale - she is a Ketite after all, with coloration similar to someone Turkish or Latina. Adding the Demonomicon to the figure would take more material to produce, but isn't a bad idea. Maybe add a few magic items like a wand, an amulet, a curved dagger, etc
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Adept Greytalker
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Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:12 pm
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PaulN6 wrote: |
Morticia Addams isn't a bad mental image actually, although in terms of coloration, I felt they copped out and made her too pale - she is a Ketite after all, with coloration similar to someone Turkish or Latina. |
I don't recall Iggwilv's exact ethnicity ever being addressed--though the Stephens/Holian article mentions that she first gained infamy in Ket, I don't remember it saying she was Bakluni.
Furthermore, in the Gord books, EGG describes her as a blonde, IIRC--at least in her seductive form.
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GreySage
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Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:31 pm
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She might be from Russia originally, actually, since she was Baba Yaga's daughter. Baba Yaga's hut travels through the planes, of course, so she could be from anywhere. In her Louhi guise, she probably looked like a Laplander.
Her "Morticia Addams" look is just one guise among many, and doesn't necessarily reflect her true appearance at all.
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Master Greytalker
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Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:48 pm
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I actually met Iggwilv once, waaay back in college. She looks a lot different without her makeup:
http://www.grimmemennesker.dk/ugly-people-90.htm
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GreySage
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Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:36 pm
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Whew! Now that's ugly!
Bubbagump, you say you dated her in college?
What were you smoking, err, I mean drinking back then? _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
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Master Greytalker
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Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:47 pm
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"Met", not "dated". BIG difference, especially in this case.
Now that I think about it, though, she did seem to remember you quite fondly.
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GreySage
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Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:07 pm
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bubbagump wrote: |
"Met", not "dated". |
Suuurre!
bubbagump wrote: |
Now that I think about it, though, she did seem to remember you quite fondly. |
Now that you mention it, there was that one night that's till quite fuzzy . . .
. . . hmmmm.
Naw! Never happened I tell you! _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
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Master Greytalker
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Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:08 am
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Robbastard wrote: |
PaulN6 wrote: |
Morticia Addams isn't a bad mental image actually, although in terms of coloration, I felt they copped out and made her too pale - she is a Ketite after all, with coloration similar to someone Turkish or Latina. |
I don't recall Iggwilv's exact ethnicity ever being addressed--though the Stephens/Holian article mentions that she first gained infamy in Ket, I don't remember it saying she was Bakluni.
Furthermore, in the Gord books, EGG describes her as a blonde, IIRC--at least in her seductive form. |
I think Zuggtmoy was the blonde. Iggy was the brunette. It's true, they were forms that they picked and you could re-cast her as any other ethnicity (or race) but why would you? Considering the frequency of caucasion vs other ethnicity artwork there is out there it just seems bonkers to choose caucasion when there is at least some evidence that she was the baklunish-cross that is typical to Ket (the area from where she first gained infamy and her description as a raven-haired temptress - also repeated in the Return of the Eight module).
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Black Hand of Oblivion
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Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:27 am
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PaulN6 wrote: |
Tee hee - yeah, I wasn't suggesting copying the artwork exactly, but they did research what Iggy was said to look like when commissioning the work. Morticia Addams isn't a bad mental image actually, although in terms of coloration, I felt they copped out and made her too pale - she is a Ketite after all, with coloration similar to someone Turkish or Latina. Adding the Demonomicon to the figure would take more material to produce, but isn't a bad idea. Maybe add a few magic items like a wand, an amulet, a curved dagger, etc |
Not sure why the went the way that they did. In the Gord books she is described as a honey blond-haired waif or some such(look for the part when they are having their private meetings in the pocket plane). Pretty, yet completely unassuming. The type of girl that would be locked away in some evil lord's tower, just waiting for some valiant knight to come and rescue her. So, she'd look something like Taylor Hicks basically(but with a soul of pure, unadulterated evil). Gotta love Iggwilv's twisted sense of humor. She even does the pouty lip thing when she doesn't get what she wants. Maybe that was Zuggtmoy. Well, it was one of them.
Of course Iggwilv can take whatever form she please, but the "dark queen" thing is a bit overdone. Perhaps they went that way because the blond waif version is the Gord version(i.e. the New Infinities IP version). Who knows. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
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Master Greytalker
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Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:45 am
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Other anecdotal evidence is that Drelzna was a brunette. Although I suspect she was quite pasty-faced on **** of her deadedness so it doesn't really add much to the debate.
Oh well. I suppose we can paint her any colour we like and call it magic; eeeeeviiiilll magic I tells 'ee.
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GreySage
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Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:47 am
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Here's the quote from Artifact of Evil, which was published by TSR and thus presumedly fair game for Paizo to use stuff from if they'd cared to (Carl Sargent took a lot from it). Page 328:
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Iggwilv shook her head. "Not so fast, my prodigal. Is that any way for a devoted son to speak to his Dear Mother?" Even as she uttered this admonition, the ancient crone, one who had appeared a parody of every child's nightmare of a wicked witch, changed. Her features flowed and changed as her body grew and straightened. Scraggly, gray locks became flowing tresses of hair like spun gold, and face and form matched the radiance of this golden head. |
And here's the description of Zuggtmoy:
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Zuggtmoy too had altered from a horrid harridan to a breathtaking beauty. As voluptuous as her companion, Zuggtmoy's assumed form was as dark as Iggwilv's was golden. |
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Adept Greytalker
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Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:13 pm
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I like that description...it is nothing like the Paizo version which very likely did not reference anything Gygaxian in its inception.
I think curly hair, holding the Demonomicon, and in a pose suited for spell combat would be best. If you plan to use her as Iggwilv in your game, I should make it so that it at least looks combative, or if you want to use her as a PC, the same logic applies.
I think I got a good idea of what we should do. I will get a concept drawing up, and we can all "yay" or "nay" it.
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Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:14 pm
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chaoticprime wrote: |
I like that description...it is nothing like the Paizo version which very likely did not reference anything Gygaxian in its inception.
I think curly hair, holding the Demonomicon, and in a pose suited for spell combat would be best. If you plan to use her as Iggwilv in your game, I should make it so that it at least looks combative, or if you want to use her as a PC, the same logic applies.
I think I got a good idea of what we should do. I will get a concept drawing up, and we can all "yay" or "nay" it. |
Blonde and curly-haired Iggwilv? Arrgh! That's as bad as blonde and slim Resbin Dren Emondav. I'm sticking with the swarthy Natasha the Dark version from Return of the Eight and the wiki information:
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Iggwilv#encyclopedia
All in all though, Natasha doesn't sound like a Ketite name and it seems that Iggwilv's origins might even be Scandanavian:
Louhi is a queen regnant of the land known as Pohjola in Finnish mythology and the mythology of Sami people. She is described as a powerful witch with the ability to change shape and weave mighty enchantments.... The Kalevala is a book and Epic poetry which the Elias L?nnrot compiled from Finnish people and Karelian folklore in the nineteenth century, which Gygax has acknowledged as having been an influence.
So blonde needn't be a stretch, although I think old crone is really it. Seductress form can be whatever she likes I suppose. Interesting background though.
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Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:18 pm
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Well, the color of her hair can hardly be set in stone via the sculpt. There are just as many people with voluminous black curly hair as there are blond. And when it comes to drawing reference, you have to decide who has the more convincing testimony, Gary Gygax or Roger E. Moore.
We have established that her young seductress form is the miniature desired, but does that include her guise as Natasha?
I am not a fan of the artwork Wayne Reynolds has done for Pathfinder or DnD. I am far more likely to produce something period-appropriate and not have her wearing a dress made out of belts and buckles and pointed shoulder pads.
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GreySage
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Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:36 pm
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Here's Roger E. Moore's description from Return of the Eight, for what it's worth:
Quote: |
A flash of lightning and an enormous crash of thunder immediately overhead startle you. The magical symbols on the courtyard stones flare, and a pillar of colored light forms, sparking the wet leaves of the surrounding forest with a thousand reflections. A figure steps from
the pillar: a slight woman with long, black hair and golden skin. Her eyes are black pools with no irises or white. She is dressed in a dark gray robe with a hood. She bears no weapons. She soundlessly looks you over and
her lips curl with a contemptuous smile. |
Which does sound rather Baklunish, and must be the original inspiration for the illustration Wayne Reynolds did for Paizo.
Note that Canonfire has a wiki entry for Iggwilv that is superior to the absoluteastronomy.com entry by virtue of having illustrations, and in other respects.
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Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:00 pm
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I like the bottom one best, where she and Grazz't look nefarious in their dastardly scheming.
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Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:11 am
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chaoticprime wrote: |
I am not a fan of the artwork Wayne Reynolds has done for Pathfinder or DnD. I am far more likely to produce something period-appropriate and not have her wearing a dress made out of belts and buckles and pointed shoulder pads. |
I think I'd agree with this - quite apart from the copyright issues.
It's clear that any self-respecting queen of witches would wear a chainmail bikini and boob-spikes. Just bear in mind that she'll be wearing the same outfit in crone form (shudder). Such is the depths of her evil.
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Black Hand of Oblivion
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Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:28 am
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chaoticprime wrote: |
I am far more likely to produce something period-appropriate and not have her wearing a dress made out of belts and buckles and pointed shoulder pads. |
What do you mean by "period-appropriate"? Give a description please. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
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Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:53 am
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chaoticprime wrote: |
I like the bottom one best, where she and Grazz't look nefarious in their dastardly scheming. |
Good ol Jim Holloway!
Man, I didn't realize there were so many illos of Iggwilv out there now.
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GreySage
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Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:13 am
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I added another image of Iggwilv (it's probably meant to be Iggwilv, anyway, a woman attacking Graz'zt with a dagger) to the wiki, this one from Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth.
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Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:52 am
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I like the picture of the old crone carrying her demonomican. It might be cool to attire the seductress in an outfit that could be converted for a crone so that if we ever get a crone version, they could be wearing the same clothes and carrying the same equipment. So, go easy on the cleavage...
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Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:39 am
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Cebrion wrote: |
chaoticprime wrote: |
I am far more likely to produce something period-appropriate and not have her wearing a dress made out of belts and buckles and pointed shoulder pads. |
What do you mean by "period-appropriate"? Give a description please. |
I should have specified. Though its a large period of time, 12th to 14th century Europe is how I have always considered Greyhawk to best resemble when compared to our own time line.
Though there are certainly elements from both previous and later periods of history, The Middle Ages seem to have contributed the most...at least by my reckoning.
Is there a good description of her Demonomicon somewhere?
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GreySage
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Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:24 pm
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According to Robert S. Mullin's article in Dragon #225, the Demonomicon (like the Nethertome which is that article's primary focus) has an ebony cover and spine with a black demon hide stretched over it, secured to the covers with brass cornerpieces and edging, and a brass clasp.
The adventure "Iggwilv's Legacy: Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth," available from WotC's website, describes the Demonomicon as "a massive leather-bound tome," bound with brass, its pages stained with ichor, sealed with three golden clasps.
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Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:52 am
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Thank you very much Rasgon. I think I know what to do with this. I will get some concept art out as soon as I can.
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Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:01 pm
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Iggwilv should also be described in the recent Castle Greyhawk hardback by Buhlman because her simulacrum is in it iirc. Mine is in storage but I am sure one of you can look it up.
Oh, and I love whoever's idea it was for the mini to be her with book open in the crook of one arm (with the left page reading "Graz'zt's realms", or however his name is spelled I always get it wrong, and the right listing the various layers he controls with other squiqqles to represent words and sentences) while her other is stretched outwards, pointing (she can be casting a spell, summoning a demon, or ordering a henchman to kill someone), a demonic familiar on her shoulder peering down into the tome, while she stands inside a small pentagram or other arcane circle.
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Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:15 pm
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chaoticprime wrote: |
I am not a fan of the artwork Wayne Reynolds has done for Pathfinder or DnD. I am far more likely to produce something period-appropriate and not have her wearing a dress made out of belts and buckles and pointed shoulder pads. |
I could be wrong, but I don't think Wayne Reynolds created the look of Iggwilv as we know her today. I believe Matt Dixon is to blame, from the article in Dragon #336: http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showarticle&articleid=4579
As an aside, I've always imagined this Dragon cover to be an image of Iggwilv in her younger days summoning the Serpent: http://index.rpg.net/pictures/show-water.phtml?picid=9130
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Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:05 pm
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Nice link Rob! I'd take that pose for an Iggwilv fig too. ;)
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GreySage
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Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:17 pm
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That was from October 2005. The Wayne Reynolds Graz'zt-and-Iggwilv cover was from Dungeon #121, published in April 2005.
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Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:35 am
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I guess Reynolds is to blame, then! His art is hit or miss for me--I think the Graz'zt & Iggwilv cover is an example of his better work, but there are times when he seems to be channeling Rob Liefield, such as this pic: http://www.waynereynolds.com/Magazine%20Art/MagazineArt/EDragon353_Malcanthet02.jpg
My favorite Iggwilv image, I think, is the one by James Ryman used in the infobox on the wiki.
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GreySage
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Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:41 pm
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Mine too. And yeah, I can't figure out how Malcanthet's head is supposed to be attached to her body in that image.
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Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:29 am
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That's more Jim Lee to me. Jim Lee does not understand that evil does have have to include the presence of spikes. Nice throne, Wayne.
I miss Caldwell, Easley, Parkinson, and Elmore...
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Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:57 pm
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mortellan wrote: |
Nice link Rob! I'd take that pose for an Iggwilv fig too. ;) |
I agree, but then I've been planning to use Keith Parkinson's "Summoner" figure as Iggwilv for awhile: http://www.darkswordminiatures.com/gallery/p_set3Summoner.htm (which isn't to say that I wouldn't buy another, either :D ). _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
Last edited by grodog on Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:57 pm
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I would love to have Tom Meier sculpt for me. I guess I can always ask.
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Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:24 am
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chaoticprime wrote: |
I would love to have Tom Meier sculpt for me. I guess I can always ask. |
Great!: https://www.thunderboltmountain.com/commissions.html and https://www.thunderboltmountain.com/companyInfo.php may be useful info. _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
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Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:43 pm
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Yeah, I dug out that information right after I posted my last comment. I am going to wait until I have the concept art and the cash in hand. I hope to be able to -ask- in February, as I will have a fist load of cash then.
I hope this would appeal to him, there is a certain sense of nobility about it, regarding how Greyhawk has been treated.
I traded some Reapers for a box of old Grenadier and Citadel miniatures with a guy who lives in the UK. Amongst those was an old Citadel guard painted up to look like a Greyhawk City guard. His colors were wearing off, silver, now dull and gray, shone out in many places. Even the guards details were beginning to wear off altogether. That miniature seems to be a fair representation of the professional care given to Greyhawk. It's still very usable, but without maintenance it has faded weathered.
But do we want the current Wizards of the Coast to clean it up and repaint it?
I cannot say I have always wondered how many giant blades Iuz has attached to his shoulder pauldrons...
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Adept Greytalker
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Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:57 am
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What would a good name for the miniature be? I am currently in talks to get it sculpted right now. I want a good name for her that will attract people who know nothing of Greyhawk.
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CF Admin
Joined: Jun 29, 2001
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From: Wichita, KS, USA
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Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:53 am
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Some suggestions:
- Witch Queen
- Summoner Queen
- Queen of Summoners
- Seducer of Demons
- Mother of Demons
- Binder of Demon Lords
- Queen of Demons
I'm more in favor of the first one, since it ties her most-closely to GH and is probably the best of title listed. _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
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Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:31 pm
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grodog wrote: |
Some suggestions:
- Witch Queen
- Summoner Queen
- Queen of Summoners
- Seducer of Demons
- Mother of Demons
- Binder of Demon Lords
- Queen of Demons
I'm more in favor of the first one, since it ties her most-closely to GH and is probably the best of title listed. |
I'd like to add something more like, "Witch Queen of the North" or something as such. It sounds more intimidating like that.
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CF Admin
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Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:34 pm
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I like that! :D _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
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GreySage
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Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:47 pm
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I'll vote for Witch Queen of the North. Sounds almost too good, even if a little Wizard of Oz-ish. _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
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Journeyman Greytalker
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Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:10 pm
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I like Seducer of Demons, as you clearly have to be a badass to seduce demons.
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Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:51 pm
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aurdraco wrote: |
I like Seducer of Demons, as you clearly have to be a badass to seduce demons. |
Nah, demons are easy. It's them modrons who are hard to get.
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Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:33 am
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bubbagump wrote: |
aurdraco wrote: |
I like Seducer of Demons, as you clearly have to be a badass to seduce demons. |
Nah, demons are easy. It's them modrons who are hard to get. |
I'm sure you could buy an adapter somewhere in Sigil.
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From: brazil
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Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:49 am
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or you have to be very ugly to the taste of a demon
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Master Greytalker
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Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:51 pm
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chaoticprime wrote: |
bubbagump wrote: |
aurdraco wrote: |
I like Seducer of Demons, as you clearly have to be a badass to seduce demons. |
Nah, demons are easy. It's them modrons who are hard to get. |
I'm sure you could buy an adapter somewhere in Sigil. |
No adapter needed if you're one of those people who enjoys pounding round pegs into square holes...
Uh...did I actually say that? Nevermind. Nothing to see here, move along, please!
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Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:42 pm
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Here are some of the nearly finished sahuagin. They just need hacked up and spru'd. The unarmed one is going to get a bit more polish as well.
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Adept Greytalker
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From: brazil
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Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:49 pm
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wow!
great stances!
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Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:28 pm
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Update! I have made an agreement with sculptor Patrick Keith to bring The Witch Queen of the North to life!
I'd link you to his web-site but it is currently under renovation. Patrick is really good at what he does, you can track down some of his work at www.Reapermini.com.
He told me he can begin in early March.
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