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    Canonfire :: View topic - WG7: Castle Greyhawk. Why isn't this canon?
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    WG7: Castle Greyhawk. Why isn't this canon?
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:57 pm  
    WG7: Castle Greyhawk. Why isn't this canon?

    I own WGR1: Greyhawk Ruins and I know that the material in this over-rides the material presented in WG7.

    Here are my questions:

    1) Was anything from WG7 used in WGR1? Or was WGR1 a complete re-design?

    2) What was so "silly" about WG7 that made it get swept under the carpet by red-faced GH fans? I mean, S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks is a *strange* adventure but that is still canon. Why was WG7 dismissed? (This has gotta be a first in TSR's history for an official supplement to be ignored; to pretend it *never happened*.)

    3) Who exactly wrote WG7? Were they well know TSR writers?

    I hope someone can answer my questions because this module intrigues me.

    Thanks.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:41 pm  

    Well, Baggins, I'll shoot for numbers 2 and 3

    By the sound of question number 2 I'm taking a liberty here by saying you've not looked through WG7? What was so silly about it was, the entire adventure was silly. As in it was meant to be silly. Waaaaaay silly. I personally wasn't red-faced about it. In fact, I've read that whole adventure and spent a great deal time laughing a bit helplessly. For instance you have level names such as "It's My Party and I'll Die if I Want to," "The Temple of Really Bad Dead Things," and everyone's favorite "Mordenkainen's Movie Madness."

    I suppose WG7 is something that you would consider playing if you're of a mature gaming age, your players are drunk and/or stoned and you haven't an adventure ready. Wink

    As for question number 3, WG7 was written by many authors, each author taking a level of Castle Greyhawk and doing with it whatever they pleased. Literally. Such as the temple of really bad dead things level in which the author refers to himself as a hack who is writing the level as the players progress through the level itself.

    snip

    The voice is that of the hack in area 13. He will impatiently explain that he just hasn't had the time to fill in every detail yet, that the editor wants it turned in tonight, and would they [the party] please leave him alone.

    snip

    I simply thought it made for funny reading material.
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    Wed Jun 02, 2004 5:34 am  

    Theoretically given the depths of Zagyg's madness such a castle could and should be plausible in a serious GH campaign. I also own and know Dungeonland and Land Beyond the Magic Mirror are farces that are in GH canon(Murlynd's house is in one of them).
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    Wed Jun 02, 2004 6:21 am  

    When I read the words "killer flying flapjacks," the book went into the garbage.

    It's ludicrous that such a book got published. I could imagine there were many, many better things they could've been working on.

    IMO, it is the single worst Greyhawk work ever published.
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:27 am  

    you haven't read "Gargoyle", have you Abyss?
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    Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:35 am  

    WG7 is disregarded by just about everyone because it was a nasty, mean-spirited attack on Gary Gygax and his campaign.
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    Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:16 am  

    cwslyclgh wrote:
    you haven't read "Gargoyle", have you Abyss?


    I place Gargoyle and Fate of Istus a step above this ridiculious piece of work, easily! Wink
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    Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:21 am  

    Faraer, please explain further. How do you know this? I am curious (and it wouldn't suprise me that this was a backlash at Gygax).
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:44 am  

    Argermax wrote:
    Faraer, please explain further. How do you know this? I am curious (and it wouldn't suprise me that this was a backlash at Gygax).


    I don't know if it was meant to be an attack or if it was just someone's idea of 'hey, wouldn't it be funny if...' But, I have to say that I have PC's in the Flanaess (points to login name) that I've coddled and cultivated and kept alive through many game years. Should I have seen something titled Tedra's Totally Trippin' Trog Tea Party, I imagine I'd be frothing at the mouth. That alone makes it somewhat of an attack whether it was intended or not. Does anyone know if Gygax ever made any comments about WG7? I'm sure he has at one time or another.
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    Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:06 pm  

    Tedra wrote:
    By the sound of question number 2 I'm taking a liberty here by saying you've not looked through WG7?


    No, I haven't had the pleasure to peruse the pages of WG7 but I've heard rumours about it. I didn't know any specifics, though.

    I was just wondering why this was not *canon* material and you've all answered this question. Thanks! Happy

    P.S. Yeah, Fate of Istus was a disgrace!
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:46 pm  

    Baggins wrote:
    P.S. Yeah, Fate of Istus was a disgrace!


    You are so very welcome Baggins. And also, as a side note on bad modules, wasn't FoI another one that had each section written by a different author? Too many cooks in the kitchen? Or just a rotten idea? I have Gargoyle floating around somewhere, but have never even opened it, so I'm not in a position to comment on it's apparent crapitude that I've heard so much about.
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    Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:55 pm  

    Quote:
    wasn't FoI another one that had each section written by a different author? Too many cooks in the kitchen?


    The difference is Fate of Istus was a good idea, but it was executed improperly, whereas WG7 was just literally crap in its entirety.
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    Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:14 pm  

    Aww c'mon Abyss. You know you'd like to test your mettle against those horrid killer flying flapjacks! What about the Extracaffeinated Cola Elemental? Or, lest we forget, valuable and powerful items of magic such as the decanter of endless lemonade. Wink
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    Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:38 pm  

    Are there any other official products that were meant for GH but are not *canon*?

    Also, what GH products glaringly contradict each other and, when this occurs, which product comes out on top as *official*?

    For example, I believe there is a Verbobonc description in WG8 Fate of Istus that does not match the version in WGA4 Vecna Lives. Which version came out on top and is considered official?
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    Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:18 am  

    Quote:
    Also, what GH products glaringly contradict each other and, when this occurs, which product comes out on top as *official*?


    heh, way too many for me to lay out. Official canon is also open to heavy interpretation. What one person considers official canon isn't necessarily accepted by another person. That is just how Greyhawk is and part of what makes it so great. You can view these little nuances simply by perusing Canonfire and soaking in everyone's different perception of the world through their writings.

    Quote:
    Are there any other official products that were meant for GH but are not *canon*?


    As I stated above and for an example. I can't stand Vecna Reborn (technically Ravenloft) by Monte Crook. I think the module was poorly laid out and find that its plot although very interesting was anti-climaxial. I would never personally use the module and concerning Vecna, I consider him still trapped by the Demi-Plane where he shall sit forever so long as I'm concerned. It's his history that intrigues me and my players anyway. That's my canonical version.

    On the otherhand, alot of others have expressed their appreciation for the mod. Greyson, Samwise, and others think it's great.

    Despite this difference we still manage to commit to the community of Greyhawk which is something that makes Canonfire unique. I wish more Greyhawkian hang-outs would adpot an "editionless, authorless, and welcome all fans of the setting type" policy. (although I do think a greater population of this site's membership are fans of the Sargent era)

    Quote:
    Aww c'mon Abyss. You know you'd like to test your mettle against those horrid killer flying flapjacks! What about the Extracaffeinated Cola Elemental? Or, lest we forget, valuable and powerful items of magic such as the decanter of endless lemonade.


    Even if I somehow managed to sneak that book to the gaming table, my players would mob me as soon as they discovered where they were, and I wouldn't blame them! Wink
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    Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:17 am  

    Castle Greyhawk is absolute garbage. There is the sole reason that is should never be considered canon whatsoever!

    .........................Omote
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    Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:28 am  

    After the Blumes and Lorraine Williams throw Gary out of his own company, the very next WG module they publish takes the Greyhawk Castle dungeons, a figurehead of Gary's AD&D and a long-awaited product, and makes it the object of ridicule and stupidity, satirizing Gary's creations and play style.

    Clear enough to me.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:05 am  

    You see! I've gotta get the hell outta here. You guys are getting me into trouble. Shocked Checking to see if I remembered correctly about Castle Greyhawk being written by many authors, one for each level, and looking for a quote for Baggins since he had never even leafed through the book. Now I've had to explain why I have WG7 sitting next to my computer to my hubbers.

    "Of all the possible things, why do you have Castle Greyhawk out?"

    So I just picked up the book, mumbled something about looking for something for someone and skulked back to the bookcases. Embarassed Oh the shame.......
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:24 am  

    Quote:
    What one person considers official canon isn't necessarily accepted by another person.
    This is a miss use of the term "official canon".

    what one person condisers offical canon doesn't matter in the least.. the only opinion that matters as far as official canon goes is the company that has the publishing rights. canonality is only truly relavent when condiserations for future products are being made... any given persons home D&D game deviates from canon the moment the game begins (because the player characters that take part in that campaing do not exist in the canon).

    That being said official greyhawk canon is what ever WotC says it is, nothing more and nothing less.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:33 am  

    cwslyclgh wrote:
    what one person condisers offical canon doesn't matter in the least.. the only opinion that matters as far as official canon goes is the company that has the publishing rights. canonality is only truly relavent when condiserations for future products are being made... any given persons home D&D game deviates from canon the moment the game begins (because the player characters that take part in that campaing do not exist in the canon).

    That being said official greyhawk canon is what ever WotC says it is, nothing more and nothing less.


    That was the most clearly stated definition of canon that I think I've ever come across.
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    Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:45 am  

    Quote:
    official greyhawk canon is what ever WotC says it is, nothing more and nothing less.


    True, but wouldn't that put WG7 as official Canon? /puke
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    Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:06 pm  

    **raises hand**

    I would say that by the definition above that would be yes. But I would also say that it isn't considered real canon, as far as incorporable useful information by way of its parody. It was published as a comedy, attack on Gygax, however you look at it. To me saying it is official canon is sort of like comparing Mel Brooks' Young Frankenstein to the original 1931 James Whale Frankenstein. It was a spoof, for whatever reason, and was meant to be silly. Therefore it offers no useful information to the world of Greyhawk.

    Though mort made an interesting point with this statement.
    Quote:
    Theoretically given the depths of Zagyg's madness such a castle could and should be plausible in a serious GH campaign.
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    Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:58 pm  

    Quote:
    True, but wouldn't that put WG7 as official Canon? /puke
    no... and this is the reason why... in the last thing that said anything about the subject (Greyhawk: The Adventure begins, that it was published before wotc got the rights has no bearing, as they have not siad anything to contradict it) says that it is not canon... in fact it says that WGR1 replaces it.
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    Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:43 pm  

    cwslyclgh wrote:
    That being said official greyhawk canon is what ever WotC says it is, nothing more and nothing less.


    Yes, this is what I was thinking of when I said *canon*.

    In the history of TSR/WotC has there ever been a product other than WG7 that has been *officially* announced as NOT canon material?

    If WG7 is the only one, then it must really stink!

    Another question:

    Is WG7 just a collection of modular dungeon levels for each chapter? Or is a basic overview of Castle Greyhawk's ruins provided like in WGR1. For example, WGR1 shows the outer grounds, the 3 towers ect. Does WG7 attempt to do this at all?

    Thanks.
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    Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:49 pm  

    parts of Fate of Istus have been deemed not canonical by WotC (or at least by TSR before them, and WotC has done nothing to contradict it).
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:15 pm  

    I wish to refute two points made earlier. First, that WG7 is a terrible module. Second, that since it is meant to be a comic parody that there is nothing useful for it in a campaign.

    To the first point:
    It is all about suspension of disbelief. The D&D game is not realistic. It has giants, flying dragons, spells, whole cities underground fed by mushrooms, etc. But nobody complains that it is silly or unbelievable. As long as the campaign follows the rules of its genre (in this case, fantasy), players are able to suspend their disbelief and enjoy the world. It is realistic in the sense of fantasy realism; it is true to its genre.

    WG7 is silly, has bad puns, anachronisms and references to “our” world, and animated inanimate objects. These non-fantasy elements violate the rules of the genre and do make it more difficult to suspend disbelief.

    But that does not mean that WG7 is automatically a bad module. It does have to be used carefully. The trick to using extra-genre elements in a dramatic work is first, having a within-genre logic for them, and second, setting clear boundaries around them so that they don’t seep out and infect the rest of the world. For example, Star Trek has the holodeck, and many TV shows use “it was a dream” to include extra-genre elements.

    In the world of Greyhawk, there is a place for bad puns, anachronisms and references to “our” world, and animated inanimate objects. That place is on the demi-planes created by Zagig, and there they abound. There is not much in WG7 that is not also found in Dungeonland, The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror, the Isle of the Ape, and the Ship of Fools. For a campaign to successfully use WG7, then, it has to remove the sense that this place is part of the regular world. It must be presented as a world apart. All the surface stuff about the castle needs to be dumped. Each of the levels of the dungeon then needs to be removed to its own demi-plane, created by Zagig, with a clear limit on how to enter and leave.

    This, in fact, is what I did in my campaign and it works fine. I run a very serious campaign (see the Abduction of Thrommel article, plug, plug). But the players have twice been to Castle Greyhawk and have found themselves in various levels of WG7. They enjoyed them immensely and it did not hurt the realism of the campaign at all, because they know that this weirdness only happens in the worlds created by Zagig. If they had run into Poppinfarsh the Dough Golem on the streets of Greyhawk City it would destroy the credibility of the campaign. But they find a secret door in Castle Greyhawk that leads to a demi-plane of Zagig, they can meet Poppinfarsh and not feel their faith in the realism of the campaign challenged.


    As to the second point, that there is nothing of value in the module:
    The second time my players adventured in Greyhawk Castle they were sent by Tenser to find the true nature of Iuz (since they still didn’t know if he was a demon, a “human mage grown demonic over the centuries”, etc.). They found the level of “Virtues and Vices” and discovered the Room of Love, in which Iuz’s status as a cambion is explained and his parentage as a child of Iggwilv and Grazz’t is detailed. They were able to carry this very valuable information back to Tenser.

    [In fact, it was my acquisition of the module that gave me the information on Iuz’s parentage for the first time. Prior to Sargent’s work, the only place the true parentage of Iuz was listed, AFAIK, was in S4 and WG7. Even the Guide to the World of Greyhawk and Greyhawk Adventures suggested that Iuz was the child of Orcus].

    While on this level the party acquired a dagger made by Aldenor Masterforge in the Room of Chance. This dagger, returned to the Queen of Celene, granted them her favor, which has had important political ramifications.

    The party also discovered the Tome of Immortality written by Zagig. They were unable to read it or remove it, but they are planning a future foray to return for it.

    Other rooms on this level include information about the Bringer of Doom and Suel mages, and the knightly Order of the Golden Lion of the Wild Coast. These are great tidbits of information for any Greyhawk DM.

    The module has been a very valuable addition to my campaign.
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    Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:28 pm  

    just when you are ready for a good book burning somebody always comes and messes it up Wink
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    Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:40 pm  

    Now we need someone to explain how the Rose Estes novels are a great source of campaign material.

    Kirt
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    Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:57 pm  

    Kirt wrote:
    The module has been a very valuable addition to my campaign.


    Wow, you make the module sound very cool. In fact, it sounds more interesting that my copy of WGR1 (which never excited me too much).

    Now I'm very confused. Confused
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    Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:23 pm  

    Baggins wrote:
    Now I'm very confused. Confused


    Laughing I think this is an instance where you'll have to decide for yourself if you could ever get a copy of it in your hands. As you've seen, some despise it. Some like me, thought it was funny, and still others liked it.
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    Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:06 pm  

    Well, I'm not saying WG7 is the best module ever. Parts of it are quite bad. But at 128 pages long, I found a lot in there I could use.

    Kirt
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    Sat Jun 05, 2004 8:56 am  
    This illustrates my point

    This discussion of Castle Greyhawk is a great example of why I think GH has had such problems getting materials published. It's Hall of Shame is too freakin' big! Everyone seems to have an opinion on which was the worst GH product out there (and feel quite strongly about their choice). The GH Hall of Fame is (comparatively) smaller.

    Thus there seems to be more misses then hits in official GH products, for every Against the Giants, there is a Gargoyle, Puppets, and/or Patriots of Ulek. And then there is Rose Estes. Shudder!

    For my two cents worth, Castle Greyhawk made me groan with the bad puns, and I never used it as part of my official campaign (which was fairly gritty and serious), but as a one-shot adventure after a tough campaign to lighten the mood, it served to clear the air and recharge the batteries for another set of "serious" gaming. After all, variety is the spice of life.

    O-D
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    Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:01 am  

    cwslyclgh wrote:
    Quote:
    What one person considers official canon isn't necessarily accepted by another person.
    This is a miss use of the term "official canon".

    what one person condisers offical canon doesn't matter in the least.. the only opinion that matters as far as official canon goes is the company that has the publishing rights. canonality is only truly relavent when condiserations for future products are being made... any given persons home D&D game deviates from canon the moment the game begins (because the player characters that take part in that campaing do not exist in the canon).

    That being said official greyhawk canon is what ever WotC says it is, nothing more and nothing less.


    I hate to disagree, but what constitutes canon depends on what church you belong to, and I've never subscribed to WotC. To me, canon is established only by the creator of the campaign world - Gygax - and those he OKs (Kuntz, Lekofka, etc.). I use Sargent's work because I like it, not because it's canon.
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    Sun Jun 06, 2004 9:22 am  

    Quote:
    I hate to disagree, but what constitutes canon depends on what church you belong to, and I've never subscribed to WotC. To me, canon is established only by the creator of the campaign world - Gygax - and those he OKs (Kuntz, Lekofka, etc.). I use Sargent's work because I like it, not because it's canon.
    that is fine for you... but it is not in any way OFFICIAL canon... OFFICIAL canon is simply what the OWNERS of the work say it is... not what you want it to be.
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    Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:18 am  

    THe existance of a 'canon' is only a concern for potential authors of material. It has a certain limited value in community discussions, in that if there are major deviations from canonical materials in my house campaign, that makes discussion somewhat difficult in the broader community.

    The main issue with determining canonical status of materials in situations like this is that WotC has no particular reason to determine what, of all published greyhawk material, is actually canon. They are not soliticing material for publication, so they do not need to maintain a list of materials that new content must be in harmony with. This is made rather worse by the fact that greyhawk has had some serious lapses of editorial quality control during its 25 or so years of existance.

    So we end up with broad community consensus as to what 'we' are talking about when referring to a standard or canon Greyhawk campaign. The community generally rejects WGR7 and Rose Estes books. Similarly, the community doesn't generally doesn't consider 'generic' D&D materials as being Greyhawk specific material.

    Does any of this matter, as far as your campaign goes? Nope. It only matters for community discussion. If you try to establish a greyhawk precedent based on some example of Mialee and Tordek in a core book, you will be on shaky ground. If you advance an argument predicated on WGR7 being 'fact', you may have problems.
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    Mon Jun 07, 2004 8:39 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    The main issue with determining canonical status of materials in situations like this is that WotC has no particular reason to determine what, of all published greyhawk material, is actually canon. They are not soliticing material for publication, so they do not need to maintain a list of materials that new content must be in harmony with. This is made rather worse by the fact that greyhawk has had some serious lapses of editorial quality control during its 25 or so years of existance.


    I agree with all of the post above, but it extends farther. As it says, WotC has no particular reason to decide what is canon. But before them, T$R and Gygax, who did have reasons to do so, did not show a great deal of interest in canonicity or continuity. For example, when Sargent was commissioned to do the Marklands, he was not shown Castle Hart, and so we have two official versions of the Knights of the Hart. Which one is canon? (that is a rhetorical question). The campaign of Gygax had its own self contradictions, for example about timelines. That is perfectly acceptable in his personal campaign, as it was his DMing style to leave things vague and open to future development. That is less desirable in a published world.

    I am told that the Star Trek TV franchise relied on fans to do the continuity checking, since they were more knowledgeable and had more incentive than the people actually working on scripts. I think the same is true here in Greyhawk. For many people at TSR/WotC/Hasbro/Paizo or whatever corporate avatar we are talking about, at the end of the day this is just a job. For us fans, this is our life! (Sad but true)

    Thus, there is no official canon, and there likely will never be one. That is one of the reasons why this site is called Canonfire, after all.

    That being said, it is extremely useful to writers to have a sense of what is in general usage among us. What things are true in all campaigns, in most campaigns, and only in some campaigns. I would be very interested in a survey, or better a complete research project, on just what the greyhawk community takes to be true.

    Kirt
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    Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:46 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:

    So we end up with broad community consensus as to what 'we' are talking about when referring to a standard or canon Greyhawk campaign. The community generally rejects WGR7 and Rose Estes books. Similarly, the community doesn't generally doesn't consider 'generic' D&D materials as being Greyhawk specific material.


    I don't know, I think a lot of people tend to look at what the publisher declares as canon as the "authoritive" version even if they don't agree with it.

    Vormaerin wrote:
    If you try to establish a greyhawk precedent based on some example of Mialee and Tordek in a core book, you will be on shaky ground.


    What about the "D&D Gazetteer"?
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    Mon Jun 07, 2004 8:58 pm  

    Well, my point was that the publisher does not have a canon and has no need for one. If there was one, you would be right.

    As for the D&D Gazetteer, what about it? Its pretty much just a slimmed down reprint of older greyhawk gazetteers. Its been a long time since I looked at it, since the LGG is a far more useful sourcebook. I'm not particularly a WotC watcher, but my understanding is that initially they were looking at reusing GH for 3e materials, but subsequently abandoned that idea. They are still publishing FR material and they had that big contest for a new world (no idea what happened with that). Despite the D&D Gazetteer, there is no linkage between Greyhawk in particular and the generic core products.

    The only thing that WoTC does that relates to Greyhawk is the magazine articles, which usually go out under the Living Greyhawk moniker, IIRC.

    If you want to treat the generics as 'official' for your greyhawk campaign, that's fine. But I've never seen any sign that the community at large does so (though it has been floated a few times).
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    Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:39 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    If you want to treat the generics as 'official' for your greyhawk campaign, that's fine. But I've never seen any sign that the community at large does so (though it has been floated a few times).


    There's the "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" also. That was released under the core 3E D&D branding and is set in GH.

    I don't treat the generics as canon. Them's just rules. I think WotC would consider the 3E "D&D Gazetteer" and the "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" as *official* GH products. Neither of them are generics. They're campaign specific products for the GH setting that are released under the 3E D&D branding. This implies it is 3E D&D's core setting.
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    Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:59 am  

    Frankly, I have no idea what WotC thinks. I know that they organize their product list by 'brands'. THe D&D Gazetteer and Return to ToEE are "D&D Core" brand products, while the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer and some other materials are "Greyhawk" brand.

    The fact that the "D&D Gazetteer" is Core branded does not make me infer that "Deep Horizons" or "The Bastion of Broken Souls" (a pair of "Core" adventures) are Greyhawk canon.

    What it makes me think is that 4 years ago, Wizards wanted some basic campaign stuff to support the new players 3e was drawing to the game and didn't want to scare them off by using the high priced and voluminous FR materials. So they made a cheap and simplistic Gazetteer based off Greyhawk to serve that function. The material already existed and it wouldn't undercut sales of the more expensive FRCS and similar products.

    Later, when the RPGA decided to use Greyhawk for their Living D&D campaign, Wizards released the LGG under the Greyhawk brand (probably to differentiate it from the much smaller D&D Gazetteer).

    And now they have their new official gameworld coming out.

    I don't believe the "Core" brand novels or adventures are intended by anyone to be Greyhawk canon. If you aren't asserting that, I don't know what you are asserting by claiming Greyhawk is the "Core world".
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    Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:51 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    The fact that the "D&D Gazetteer" is Core branded does not make me infer that "Deep Horizons" or "The Bastion of Broken Souls" (a pair of "Core" adventures) are Greyhawk canon.
    I don't believe the "Core" brand novels or adventures are intended by anyone to be Greyhawk canon. If you aren't asserting that, I don't know what you are asserting by claiming Greyhawk is the "Core world".


    I'm not asserting that Deep Horizons or Bastion of Broken Souls is Greyhawk canon. They're in limbo. They haven't been grounded in any specific location. They might be later on, however. For example, there was many 1E modules that were not specifically in GH. It was only until later that some official core GH book said "OK. White Plume Mountain is officially a GH adventure and it is officially located in the Bandit Kingdoms".

    What I am asserting is that the D&D Gazetteer and Return to ToEE are *official* GH products and that they are *core D&D* products. They are not branded under LG, they are not branded under FR or anything else. They are branded as core D&D. This proves that core D&D's default setting -- when they choose to draw attention to the fact -- is GH. It certainly doesn't mean that every product becomes canon, however. It would be stupid to say the 3E PHB is an *official* GH product. I'm not claiming that and never have. However, when core 3E *chooses* to be campaign-specific -- like in the D&D Gazetteer or Return to ToEE -- then GH is, indeed, the *core* setting.
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    Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:36 pm  

    Okay, I get it now. "Core Setting" is just a label that conveys absolutely no information and affects absolutely nothing in any discussion. I can live with that, though I think you'll find that most people think labels should actually mean something if one bothers to use them. Unless, of course, they in marketing ;)

    Btw, TSR in the 80s didn't really have anything remotely considered a 'core' world. They did publish greyhawk and it got a bit more talking than other stuff, but the general assumption was you were making up your own world as a DM. That assumption is also why details and specifics in GH are pretty few and far between. Even if 'your' world happened to be GH, it was still your campaign.

    The published large quantities of adventures and very few of them were made in a way that tied them to any specific locale.
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    Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:12 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:

    Btw, TSR in the 80s didn't really have anything remotely considered a 'core' world. They did publish greyhawk and it got a bit more talking than other stuff, but the general assumption was you were making up your own world as a DM. That assumption is also why details and specifics in GH are pretty few and far between. Even if 'your' world happened to be GH, it was still your campaign.


    I beg to differ. All the rule books for 1e (except Oriental Adventures) referenced Greyhawk personas and locales. The 1e DMG in particular is a treasure trove of Greyhawk lore. Greyhawk wasn't technically called the core world, but it was more of a core setting then than it is now.
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    Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:34 am  

    Quote:
    All the rule books for 1e (except Oriental Adventures) referenced Greyhawk personas and locales

    And funny, Oriental Adventures was wrote by EGG. I wonder what he had in mind when developing that sourcebook.
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    Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:14 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    Quote:
    All the rule books for 1e (except Oriental Adventures) referenced Greyhawk personas and locales

    And funny, Oriental Adventures was wrote by EGG. I wonder what he had in mind when developing that sourcebook.


    Was OA written by Gygax or David "Zeb" Cook? I know it says Gygax on the cover but for some reason I always think Zeb Cook wrote that book.

    Also, I think Kara-Tur was destined for GH but got re-routed to the Forgotten Realms. I'm not too sure on this, though.
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    Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:04 pm  

    The LGG was written before the D&D Gazetter. The latter was "edited down" from the LGG without the input of any of the LGG's authors. Just wanted to make sure that everyone understood the timeline.

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    Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:23 pm  

    [quote="Baggins"]
    Quote:


    Was OA written by Gygax or David "Zeb" Cook? I know it says Gygax on the cover but for some reason I always think Zeb Cook wrote that book.

    Also, I think Kara-Tur was destined for GH but got re-routed to the Forgotten Realms. I'm not too sure on this, though.
    By gum you may be right! Gygax is the concept, Zeb the designer. It is funny to see Gygax plastered in big letters on there by himself though.

    I have that same inclination as well about it not being a FR product. Why would Gygax steer a project of his imagining towards another gameworld at that time and place? Also I used to have the Swords of the Daiymo adventure and according to the supplied map the PCs as gaijin would travel to KaraTur from the east, now, isn't Faerun to the west of KaraTur? Heck maybe if Ebberon starts to flag, they'll shoe horn that into FR as well. Confused
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    Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:57 pm  

    I think the best proof of whay WG7 is not Canon is simply the coming into existance a bit later of Greyhawk Ruins. Why would you completly redo an entire area already covvered in goofy module form in a more serious form?? Anser: the first one was completly and purposely utterly lame(making fun of what was anticipated to be a mega-adventure penned by Gugax' own hand evetually so I'd say it was a jsab by the company folks at him), contained little of practical use to 99.9 % of all campaigns(Iuz's origins were covered in the Gord series of books quite nicely, shortly after Gygax left the company), and generally signalled to decline of the company IMO. I feel sorry for Keith Parkinson that his artwork "graces" the cover. He nailed the theme of the adventure though in his vision. It is not a coincidence that many of the other staff bailed from the company- writers and artists included.

    Greyhawk ruins was better, but really served to reinforce my opinion that it was an apology for WG7. TSR Staff: "Sorry we pissed off 99.9% of our Greyhawk customers, who's purchasing of our products gets to us in the form of paychecks through the middle man of TSR. It must of been all the LSD we did way back when. We're really, REALLY sorry!!! Please don't make us homeless!!! :(...

    I've spoken to one individual who was with the company at the time and was simply shocked at the crap that was getting approval for production, and so they left. The writing was on the wall.

    So, yes, I'd say it is safe to say that WG7 is NOT canonical. Like it matters to me anyways. If its lame , its not in my game; if its great then I'll use it somehow.

    Humor is fine and dandy, but if a module pits my players against Colonel Sanders or Waldo of "Where's Waldo" fame(I'll crack the first idiot that I meet who creates the ultimate thief named Waldo who has 100 points of hide skill!!!), or somthing comparable like in most of WG7, then I will load for bear and unload both barrels into it on any forum, and I certainly won't pay for, nor even be inclined to completly read such garbage. Hell, it was the only real life situation in which I found myself to be gaining insanity points! I thought my life might end up reading like an H.P. Lovecraft story- "Having just read WG7, I don't think I can go on anymore. What was I thinking! The words won't leave my head! I am beyond even the madness of Zagyg now, and not in any good way. Only the cool touch of a loaded .38 revolver against the roof of my mouth grants me solace..."

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    Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:30 am  

    chatdemon wrote:

    I beg to differ. All the rule books for 1e (except Oriental Adventures) referenced Greyhawk personas and locales. The 1e DMG in particular is a treasure trove of Greyhawk lore. Greyhawk wasn't technically called the core world, but it was more of a core setting then than it is now.


    The DMG certainly had a lot of Greyhawk material in it, mainly in the list of artifacts. And I suppose you can claim the named spells in the PHB as 'greyhawk references'. Greyhawk was, for a good portion of the 1e era, the only published D&D world.

    My point was that TSR was not trying to use Greyhawk in any consistent way in product development. Things designed by Gygax and other members of his campaign were generally set in Greyhawk, but they weren't marketed as "world of greyhawk" products different from the host of generic modules produced.

    Maybe I'm just looking at it oddly, but it seems to me that back then TSR was pushing D&D in general and used Greyhawk examples alot solely by the 'accident' that Gygax wrote a lot of the material and that was his campaign. Few things were sold specifically as related to Greyhawk (even if they were). When I think of 'core world', I think of how the Realms were used or a lot of other companies sell a joint gameworld/game system. TSR did not have that feeling in the Gygax era and I don't feel that Wizards has that right now, though it certainly has legacy effects from the FR's dominance of the D&D marketing in the in between time.

    Btw, thanks for the clarification Iquander. I didn't realize that the D&D Gazetteer was cut down from the LGG. I had thought they were more or less separately developed from the previous material.
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    Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:13 pm  

    It's been mentioned that WG7 could have been a cheap shot at Gygax.

    I was wondering, was the culmination of the Gord the Rogue novels (you all know what happens to Oerth) a retalitory attack against TSR?
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    Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:11 am  
    WG7, Canon, non cannon and firestarters.

    Canon/Non Canon... I do not know if it matters, as long as the story can continue in a manner that creates enjoyment for everyone, without causing a lot of additional work. Above, it was mentioned that they found it useful in many ways. We did too; we were playing during a power outage, and we used pages from the module to light the storm lanterns.

    The fact that you found something useful is a testment to your ingenuity and drive. This module was drivel, poorly concieved, poorly written, poorly edited, poorly produced. It should have never made it into print. Think Highlander 2.

    Canon or not canon, if Zagig or Gary Gygax either one or both showed up and demanded that it be included in my game, I would refuse, and chastise them for bothering me. It is just not good story; it's not good fun. Beyond the Magic Mirror and Dungeonland I enjoyed, but they were insterted into my storyline as a diversion, not as part of the story.

    I must admit though, that since we burned it, i have never looked at it again.
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