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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 14, 2008
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    From: Modena, Italy

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    Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:14 am  
    Ancient Greyhawk political maps

    I was wondering if anyone has already tried to draw maps of the Flanaess of the past.
    Specifically maps of the Flanaess during Vecna's reign, during year 0, and intermediate times like -100 CY, 50 CY, 100 CY, 150 CY, 200 CY etc up to 500 CY and 550 CY.

    It would be really useful to graphically see how the realms have evolved during the years, I believe many of us do have a clue on what happened but I am also quite sure there will be lot of discussion once someone takes the project in his folds and start showing the first maps...
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 08, 2008
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    From: Australia

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    Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:49 am  

    What a fantastic idea! I for one would love to see a rough delineation of the oeridian tribal lands before the conquests of the Great Kingdom. Has anyone looked into this in the past?

    Ta.

    Damien.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:20 pm  

    Rasgon has made up a couple of nice quick-and-dirty maps when we've been discussing historical issues. I believe he did one on the post-Migration Aerdi and eastern Oeridian states and another on Vecna's empire. You might be able to find them by searching the forums, or maybe he'll pop in and post them. This is a subject right up his alley.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:21 pm  

    Kirt Wackford created proposed boundaries for Vecna's realm in OJ 16.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:55 pm  

    This thread has both of the maps by Rasgon that I mentioned above -

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2790&highlight=vecna+map
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    From: Michigan

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    Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:24 pm  

    I didn't make the Vecna one, incidentally. I think Gary Holian and Erik Mona did.

    But yes, this project is up my alley.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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    Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:02 pm  

    Thanks for that link, Smillan! Happy

    Awesome maps Rasgon. Thanks for giving us those and I hope we get to see more of them in the future. Happy Cool Wink
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:24 am  

    Very very good.
    Someone has also ever set a clear time for the reign of Rachleach in the Adri forest? From what I recall elves were not the first inhabitants of the Flanaess, but from the text in City of Greyhawk, it seems like there was this "kingdom" which should be very, very old (I'd guess over 5000 years at least).
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:47 pm  

    See this is what I love about this place.!I had never heard of Rachleach, and then MToscan forces me to drag out the Encyclopedia Greyhawkia and look this up. Smile

    Sounds like he definitely predates Queen Sharafere by a long shot. Maybe one of her ancestors, or could be totally unrelated.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:33 am  

    Rachleach? Was that the ancient elf spirit possessing a druid in the City of Greyhawk Boxed Set? I always liked the idea, although I confess that the reason why was that it reminded me somewhat of the Valheru of the Riftwar Saga....

    So sue me.

    Embarassed

    Damien.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:14 am  

    That's the one. Not familiar with the valheru so I had to look it up. Sounds like an apt comparison. One cool thing about Rachleach is rather than the traditional Tolkien elven feel he has has more of a Poul Anderson elven feel, doing elven things for elven reasons, and humans or anybody else be damned. We see hints of that in the post-war Celene, but that has less to do with them being elves than the state of Yolande's head. This'll produce groans from many but that's one thing I like that they've done with eladrin, elves and the fey in 4e. They're more alien and otherworldly than in previous editions, although part of that was just tying the elves more closely to the fey. I wish they had just bitten the bullet and placed the elven gods in the Feywild instead of their own realms.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:10 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    I wish they had just bitten the bullet and placed the elven gods in the Feywild instead of their own realms.


    If they lived in the Feywild, they wouldn't be gods. The only real difference between a god, demon lord, archfey, darklord, primal spirit, and primordial is where they come from (they'll generally have different physical appearances and roles in the cosmology too, but not different power levels). The archfey of the Feywild are equivalent to gods in power and majesty, so if you want 4th edition to have elven "gods" living in the Feywild, you essentially have them.

    The reason Sehanine and Corellon don't live in the Feywild is because they're supposed to be gods worshiped by all races, not archfey. Corellon is as much the god of magic to the dwarves and dragons as he is to the elves.

    The only exception to this that I'm aware of is that Lolth is considered a goddess in 4th edition even though she lives in the Abyss, which suggests that things are a little more complicated than "a demon lord is a god who lives in the Abyss and an archfey is a god who lives in the Feywild." But that's mostly only true for legacy reasons; generally speaking a god will dwell in the Astral Sea, a primordial in the Elemental Chaos, a darklord in the Shadowfell, and so on, each type of being in its appropriate place.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:31 pm  

    True, I'd forgotten about racial identity being a secondary thing with 4e gods. One of the things I still don't care for, but from a design point of view, especially the design model they're working from, I do I see the point. I do like what they've done with the Feywild and the archfey.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:57 pm  

    Damien wrote:
    Rachleach? Was that the ancient elf spirit possessing a druid in the City of Greyhawk Boxed Set? I always liked the idea, although I confess that the reason why was that it reminded me somewhat of the Valheru of the Riftwar Saga....

    So sue me.

    Embarassed

    Damien.


    The only other Living Campaign I'd ever want to do besides Greyhawk would be a Living Midkemia campaign. I love me some low-magic settings.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:41 am  

    Five years ago, I had the same question floating bout my noggin'...Being a big fan of maps, I diligently went through my source material and came up with the following ten maps, filling in any gaps with my own interpretation of nebulous bits of material...I'm sure the maps aren't entirely correct, but what map is?...Here are links to them as they are rather larger than a typical monitor's screen when pasted into a post on a board:

    The Flanaess BCY 200
    The Flanaess BCY 150
    The Flanaess BCY 100
    The Flanaess CY 1
    The Flanaess CY 130
    The Flanaess CY 254
    The Flanaess CY 360
    The Flanaess CY 461
    The Flanaess CY 579
    The Flanaess CY 591
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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    Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:53 pm  

    Very nice maps, Kwint. Cool

    Thanks for sharing. Happy
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    GreySage

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    Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:28 am  

    Kwint's maps are great. The only change I'd make at first glance is that Blackmoor was once part of the Aerdi province of Ferrond; the Great Kingdom of Aerdy should be shown extending across the Rover lands all the way to Blackmoor (probably in the CY 130 map, and probably in the CY 1 map as well).
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:18 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    ...The only change I'd make at first glance is that Blackmoor was once part of the Aerdi province of Ferrond; the Great Kingdom of Aerdy should be shown extending across the Rover lands all the way to Blackmoor (probably in the CY 130 map, and probably in the CY 1 map as well).


    So Rip, are you thinking of a change such as thus?:

    The Flanaess CY 130 - Redux

    I guess I should go back and read the entry in the LG Gazetteer to see when Blackmoor was founded...IIRC, there were some Suel barbarians that had migrated across the icy ocean from Rhizia prior to it's settlement by Oeridians...
    GreySage

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    Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:47 pm  

    Nice, Kwint, very nice. Wink
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 12, 2003
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    Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:18 pm  

    Those are really neat. Never before have I been able to visualize the Aerdy empire's march across the Flanaess and its subsequent retreat. Nice job!
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
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    Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:48 pm  

    Cool set of maps kwint! It's neat to see an evolution of the borders.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:38 am  

    aurdraco wrote:
    Those are really neat. Never before have I been able to visualize the Aerdy empire's march across the Flanaess and its subsequent retreat. Nice job!


    Ya, I think they make for a pretty cool "slideshow" when viewed in chronological order...
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 14, 2008
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    Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:03 am  

    THIS IS IT!!!! Thank you very much, that's EXACTLY what I needed!!!
    Besides, any idea of maps pre-200BCY? The Empire of Vecna, for instance...
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:56 am  

    Impressive... Most impressive. I second any attempts at earlier maps, particularly of the Occluded Empire.

    Damien.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:57 am  

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