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Iuz in 4e
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andurion
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:50 pm    Post subject: Iuz in 4e Reply with quote

I'm curious as to how powerful people think Iuz should be in 4e. I'm of the opinion that he would be in the low to mid 20s - I don't think Iuz should be as powerful as his dad, Grazz't, and I think he's a natural opponent for the end of Paragon Tier. However, this makes him about as powerful as balors, which also seems weird to me. What do others think?

Last edited by andurion on Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Iuz in 4e Reply with quote

andurion wrote:
I'm of the opinion that he would be in the low to mid 20s - I don't think Iuz should be as powerful as his dad, Graz'zt, and I think he's a natural opponent for the end of Paragon Tier. However, this makes him about as powerful as balors, which also seems weird to me. What do others think?
I agree with this sentiment. I think that Iuz should be a level 25-ish elite controller (leader).

On my message boards, somebody suggested he be an exarch, but I don't think so. Who should he be an exarch of? And, being an exarch is a bit much for an Oerth-bound personality.

What should his type be? Elemental, since Grazz't is a demon?
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andurion
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Iuz in 4e Reply with quote

Greyson wrote:
andurion wrote:
I'm of the opinion that he would be in the low to mid 20s - I don't think Iuz should be as powerful as his dad, Graz'zt, and I think he's a natural opponent for the end of Paragon Tier. However, this makes him about as powerful as balors, which also seems weird to me. What do others think?
I agree with this sentiment. I think that Iuz should be a level 25-ish elite controller (leader).

On my message boards, somebody suggested he be an exarch, but I don't think so. Who should he be an exarch of? And, being an exarch is a bit much for an Oerth-bound personality.

Yeah, he doesn't strike me as an exarch of anyone. He's kind of like an epic level PC who has started down the Demigod destiny. Or, perhaps he has his own, custom made demon prince destiny. That actually would be pretty cool - there's a "Prince of Hell" epic destiny where you become an archdevil, which is similar. :)

Quote:
What should his type be? Elemental, since Grazz't is a demon?

Good question. I'd actually make him humanoid, but still possessing the the demon keyword. But most demons - even Grazz't in 4e, who is originally a devil - have the elemental keyword, so it's definitely a possibility.

I was thinking that it would be cool if Iuz frequently shifted forms in combat, kind of like a yochlol. He'd have the mannikin and demon forms, each with its own signature powers. I agree that controller would be a good monster role for him. I see the mannikin form as doing ranged damage primarily. Iuz's acid spittle attack would do acid and necrotic damage, "splashing" onto people a certain number of squares away. I'd also make the spittle do ongoing damage and immobilize/restrain the primary target. I don't have a lot of ideas for the demon form right now. I just imagine Iuz switches to it when he needs to do a lot of close combat.
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PaulN6
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah level 25 or 26 elite would work fine. Iggwilv is probably a level 30 solo since she took on Grazz't and only just won.

Spittle probably weakens and slows since it used to age and wither limbs.

I think his demon form had claws, a greatsword and a wrestling attack.

He needs some sort of magical powers as well - most likely something resembling cleric, invoker, or assassin since those represent his major classes in 1e.
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andurion
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulN6 wrote:
Yeah level 25 or 26 elite would work fine. Iggwilv is probably a level 30 solo since she took on Grazz't and only just won.

Spittle probably weakens and slows since it used to age and wither limbs.

I like that.

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I think his demon form had claws, a greatsword and a wrestling attack.

Yeah, I checked my copy of ToEE and it said when Iuz hit with two claw attacks, the target of the assault could be strangled.

I might drop the greatsword in my version, just because he doesn't really need it. Also, IMO it makes the demon form feel more savage.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:37 pm    Post subject: Drop the Greatsword Reply with quote

andurion wrote:
I might drop the greatsword in my version, just because he doesn't really need it. Also, IMO it makes the demon form feel more savage.
I agree with this idea, and I like it a lot. PaulN6's spittle idea about weakening and slowing is golden, too.
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PaulN6
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andurion wrote:
Yeah, I checked my copy of ToEE and it said when Iuz hit with two claw attacks, the target of the assault could be strangled.

I might drop the greatsword in my version, just because he doesn't really need it. Also, IMO it makes the demon form feel more savage.


Strangling sounds cool but would it stop him from defending himself from other attacks? Maybe if both attacks hit he grabs opponent and then next round can strangle, daze (or something), and push (i.e. hurl) the victim out of melee (maybe 7 squares or based on strength)

Or I might still give him a minor action to summon his greatsword to give him some kind of close burst melee attack. I suppose if you can push back your opponents by 5 squares, those that are slowed can't get back in to attack you easily?

He needs sneak attack damage as a nod to his 15th level assassin abilities in 1e (perhaps with a stealth bonus in mini me form) and perhaps some leader abilities (divine in nature) to beef up his cambion bodyguards, attending clerics, and other demon minions. Possibly look to Iuz-specific clerical spells from 2e for inspiration.

His magical cloak should give him an extra saving throw bonus on top of his +2 elite.

It's worth statting up General Sindol too I suppose. If Iuz is to be the BBE of the adventure one assumes he will be above the pc level so Sindol can be an elite cambion equal to or slightly lower than the pc level. That still pegs him as at least a 20th level elite I reckon.

I find it really hard to build tough home brew solos and elites. So far I've always underestimate my pcs.
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andurion
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulN6 wrote:
Strangling sounds cool but would it stop him from defending himself from other attacks? Maybe if both attacks hit he grabs opponent and then next round can strangle, daze (or something), and push (i.e. hurl) the victim out of melee (maybe 7 squares or based on strength)

Strangling wouldn't stop him from defending himself I don't think. Hurling people is a cool idea, I'd probably have it so he tosses a grabbed opponent at another opponent - if the attack hits, but the hurled PC and the hit PC fall prone.

Quote:
He needs sneak attack damage as a nod to his 15th level assassin abilities in 1e (perhaps with a stealth bonus in mini me form) and perhaps some leader abilities (divine in nature) to beef up his cambion bodyguards, attending clerics, and other demon minions. Possibly look to Iuz-specific clerical spells from 2e for inspiration.

I'm not really familiar with most of the Iuz source material, so I don't know how central being an assassin is to his concept. I have ToEE and it shows him being a 16th level assassin, which I guess is a big deal but I'm not sure what that entails. The 4e assassin class has lots of cool abilities, and his manikin form may have access to similar abilities. (IMO, I don't see the demonic form being particularly stealthy or assassin like, but that's just me)

At least for my work, what's most important to me is making sure Iuz's most iconic attacks are represented. Things like the disgusting spittle or his strangling attack seem like important ways to represent his personality during a battle with him. I'm willing to drop some of the other abilities Iuz had in his older stat blocks, because in the current rules I don't think they are as important in reflecting the Old One's flavor or personality as they once were.

Quote:
I find it really hard to build tough home brew solos and elites. So far I've always underestimate my pcs.

Well, if Iuz is level 25 elite and has back-up, he should be a pretty tough fight for a group of level 20s. :) But I know what you mean. Once I pitted a group of six level 12 PCs against a level 17 solo and few level 15 minions. I wanted the encounter to be one where the PCs would have had to flee, but the group ended up killing all the monsters!
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah what I meant was that if he's strangling someone and they're immobilised they can still attack him and so can the other pcs whereas he is committed to attacking that one pc he is grappling. Hurling away limits what abilities the pc can use (most probably a charge unless they have ranged attacks or can stand as a free action). Hurling at another pc is possible but it's a ranged secondary attack, which might lead to opportunity attacks.

You can just represent his assassin abilities by giving him 3d6 damage if he has combat advantage and maybe just give his mannikin form a +10 bonus to stealth as part of the change shape power. Giving the demon form an additional ability like a fiery aura would also be cool.

Similarly, his clerical powers as a deity could be an aura to augment his allies or a minor action to heal or buff them.

I reckon a teleport recharge power might be good to gie him some mobility to evade marks.

He shoild possess his magical cloak, his mighty sword, plus his soul object prevents him being killed permanently.
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andurion
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulN6 wrote:
Similarly, his clerical powers as a deity could be an aura to augment his allies or a minor action to heal or buff them.

I think an aura is a good way to go for his leader abilities. ToEE also says that Iuz's -4 Charisma induces Horror in creatures with 6 HD or less. I'm not sure exactly what that does, but that seems important to have.

Quote:
I reckon a teleport recharge power might be good to gie him some mobility to evade marks.

Assassins in 4e have an at-will teleport that lets them step through shadows. That might be something to try.

Quote:
He shoild possess his magical cloak, his mighty sword, plus his soul object prevents him being killed permanently.

I'll probably treat the soul object as a plot device, but it should be there. I guess if his cloak and sword are important to Iuz's concept I'll look into those, too. I've started his stat block using the monster builder, and I'll post it when I get done.

A lot of pictures of Iuz in his manikin form show him leaning on a staff. Does the staff do anything cool?

I was looking at some synopses of the Gord books by Gygax and noticed that Iuz was in one of them. Is Iuz a significant character, with a fleshed out personality? I'd like to narrow down Iuz's combat prowess to a few signature abilities, so I'm wondering if there's a novel or something that might be a good resource.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't recall if Gord ever fought Iuz - I just recall a lot of talk with Iggwilv and Zuggtmoy.

His cloak was just a cloak of protection +4 which bumped his magic resistance - I'm not sure you need to stat the cloak but I mentioned it as it was one of the specific items listed in his 1e description.

A 3e version of Iuz also appeared in Dragon didn't it? I found the 3e deity rules to be rather incomprehensible but I'm sure there was useful fluff in it...
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3rd edition Iuz appeared in Dragon #294.

Iuz appears a lot in the Gord series, starting in Artifact of Evil. His personality can be summed up as arrogant and evil, with a giant chip on his shoulder. He resents his father and seeks to prove himself as Graz'zt's equal, and often throws a fit when anyone implies he should deal with Graz'zt under anything less than equal terms.

He's allied with his mother and Zuggtmoy; he resents them as well and would gladly destroy them both, but they're too powerful and they mostly keep him under their thumbs.

His signature moves in 1st edition seemed to be strangling his opponent, and in his mannikin form his spit which ages his opponents. His hideous appearance caused crippling revulsion in lesser beings. His large demon from used a two-handed sword, but I'm not aware of any special abilities of his staff.
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andurion
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rasgon wrote:
His signature moves in 1st edition seemed to be strangling his opponent, and in his mannikin form his spit which ages his opponents. His hideous appearance caused crippling revulsion in lesser beings. His large demon from used a two-handed sword, but I'm not aware of any special abilities of his staff.

Thanks for the info, rasgon.
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andurion
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At long last, here's my first take on "old Iuz of fearbabe talk." Warning, it's a massive wall of text for a stat block.

I'll be interested in hearing other peoples' thoughts on it, but already I'm thinking that a fight with Iuz might be better as a staged encounter. In the first stage, the PCs will take on the Boneheart and Iuz in his manikin form. I might lower Iuz's levels a bit in this case - maybe he'd be 22. The second stage begins a round or two after Iuz "dies" - he "returns" in his demonic form as a solo creature. Two simpler stat blocks would be better than one more complex one, IMO.

With respect to this stat block, I just realized I need to mention something about his soul gems. I have to add those in a future version. I also tried to hit on Iuz's "iconic" abilities. His greatsword, strangling grasp, cloak, horrific visage, and spittle were mentioned in ToEE. The cloak is based on an Amulet of Double Fortune. "Shadow Step" and "Finger of Death" are nods to Iuz's Assassin abilities. "Unkindness of Ravens" was inspired from From the Ashes, which says Iuz can "summon vast storms of ferocious ravens and bony bat-like magical creatures from the Outer Planes." I'm not sure what the "bony bat-like" creatures could be, but I'd like to stat that up. And "Gnarled Staff" and "Gaze of the Old One" are powers I just made up because I thought they would be cool.

Again, it's quite a lot, and I'm not sure how often some of those powers would show up (particularly "Strangling Grasp"). I'm also not so sure at-will shifting between forms will be cool or not. If anyone happens to play out a fight with this write-up, let me know.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coool! His demonic form looks a bit vanilla but I don't know how that would play out - I think a critical hit power acknowledging that the sword is magical might add to the danger. It makes sense for his melee powers to be largely demon form and his ranged powers to be largely mannikin form with a recharge power or encounter power or bloodied power usable in either form.

My pcs are a bit low for a fight with Iuz and his demon host but I'd be really interested to see how a fight plays out! Maybe we need General Sindol and a sample force from the Legion of Black Death to round out the Old One.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like the "Unkindness of Ravens," "Gaze of the Old One," and "Shadow Step" abilities. Very flavorful.
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andurion
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulN6 wrote:
Coool! His demonic form looks a bit vanilla but I don't know how that would play out - I think a critical hit power acknowledging that the sword is magical might add to the danger. It makes sense for his melee powers to be largely demon form and his ranged powers to be largely mannikin form with a recharge power or encounter power or bloodied power usable in either form.

Thanks! And yeah, the demon form could used some jazzing up. I've thought about it since postin that Iuz and I'll have to get it updated ASAP.

Quote:
My pcs are a bit low for a fight with Iuz and his demon host but I'd be really interested to see how a fight plays out! Maybe we need General Sindol and a sample force from the Legion of Black Death to round out the Old One.

Yeah, I figure Sindol is the "Defender" of the group, helping keep the heat off of his boss.

rasgon wrote:
I really like the "Unkindness of Ravens," "Gaze of the Old One," and "Shadow Step" abilities. Very flavorful.

Thanks! I'm not sure if you have DDI or not, but Shadow Step is actually the name of the Assassin class's at-will teleport ability. PaulN6 convinced me that Iuz should have some Assassin goodness. :)
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Iuz in 4e Reply with quote

andurion wrote:
Good question. I'd actually make him humanoid, but still possessing the the demon keyword. But most demons - even Grazz't in 4e, who is originally a devil - have the elemental keyword, so it's definitely a possibility.


Emphasis mine. I hate to thread-jack, but is this true? Everything of Graz'zt that I've ever seen had him as a Demon (Prince). Even the "Lost Caverns of Tsojanth" has him listed as a demon, which according to the second booklet, he is a "New Monster"

Just...Wondering.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's true, even if it is a bit confusing. In 4e, demons are corrupted elementals and the Abyss exists within the elemental tempest. I think its origin relates to it being corrupted by Tharizdun or the Far Realm or something during the time of the Primoridials.

Graz'zt was indeed a devil who for some reason that escapes me now, was sent to the Abyss where the rot set in and turned him into a demon. This was deemed necessary within the 4e mythos because demons are now monstrous while devils tend to be more humanoid. Succubi have been drafted into the ranks of devils now and erinyes have been transformed from their mythological roots into armoured warrior demons. However, there's no reason why you need to accept any of the fluff from 4e. Although I much prefer 4e cosmology with the Feywild and Shadowfell, I generally stick to the existing fluff for monsters. Elves and gnomes as fey creatures makes oerfect sense to me but only the Hool Hlaflings fit the 4e fluff; the rest of my halflings are the pudgy, pie-eating variety reminscent of Lord of the Rings.

Since Iuz father is a demon and he has a soul object hidden in the Abyss I think the elemental and demon sub-types makes sense.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not referring to 4E fluff; I could really care less about their versions of stuff. (A side note, I like 4E mostly because of the mechanics).

I honstly want to know when Graz'zt was changed from a devil to a demon. What edition? Like I said, he was first introduced in"The Lost Caverns of Tsojanth," which, by the way, was printed in 1982 and written by EGG himself -- and it lists him as a Demon Prince, in the second booklet, under the New Monsters session.

Now, I realize that he was written up later, in the 4E version of the "Manual of the Planes," which claims he was once an Archdevil.

Now, I know that "official" D&D sources should be considered canon. However, since there isn't any official Greyhawk stuff for 4E, I don't really consider anything in 4E "canon" for Greyhawk.

So, I ask again. I would just like to clear this up. Graz'zt was "originally a devil" because WotC 4E says so, or because he was actually written that way at one point?

Please, please clarify. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He was introduced in the Gord books as the most powerful member of a race of demons (sort of eight-fingered tall drow) called the abbat-dolor. They all looked like Graz'zt and were more civilised than your average demon and they were the patrons of the Oerthly drow before Lolth came in and stole that role (she does have a cameo in the books but is not strongly tied to the drow). When the Lost Caverns came out there was no mention of his race in his description.

He's always been a demon who is more civilised than other demons i.e. CE with NE tendencies in 1e. I think it was this that led them to determine that he was once a devil in 4e. It changes nothing about his personality but might explain why he could still frequent with succubi (who are now devils).

The abbat-dolor have never made it into any version of official DnD as far as I am aware so as far as 'official' sources go, they've never said he wasn't originally a devil (and this could have been in a time before men and elves existed). As such you can include it or not at your discretion.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the-golem wrote:
Please, please clarify. Thanks.

In 4e's assumed setting (not GH), Graz'zt was once a devil who led an attack on the Abyss. For whatever reason, Graz'zt decided to stay in the Abyss, becoming an actual demon prince. He may still be working for Asmodeus, or he may have betrayed the Lord of the Nine Hells.

As far as I know, 4e is the only edition where Graz'zt was once a devil. Sorry for any confusion.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I read in the World of Greyhawk book, the one that comes in the boxed set, that Iuz is a half-fiend. Wouldn't that make one of his parents a fiend rather than a devil or demon? Maybe the mysteries of chaos just confuse me.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iuz is a Cambion demon(a semi-demon, or half-demon basically). His father is the demon lord Graz'zt; his mother the infamous witch Iggwilv. As cambions go, Iuz is a real over achiever. Laughing Graz'zt may have been reclassified as a devil in 4E though.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grazz'zt is still a demon, just a devil who was corrupted by the Abyss so that he became a demon. Maybe this means that demonic succubi are back on the menu too...
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