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    Canonfire :: View topic - Goldbolt
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    Goldbolt
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    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:13 am  
    Goldbolt

    Continuing my trend of starting dead-end topics... I'm looking for info on the history of Goldbolt. I know that it was one of the early Aerdi fortresses constructed by Daern, and it was originally called Tarthax. It was occupied by the Raoan paladin Karn Serrand in the Wars era and renamed Goldbolt. I'm trying to establish what Tarthax would have looked like in my current campaign year of 572 CY. Here are the questions I'd like to answer:
    1. The castle sits on the Almorian borderlands. Prior to the Wars, which side occupied it? I'm guessing it was always on the Aerdi side, or it would have been razed like the rest of Almor.
    2. Had the castle been vacant when Karn Serrand moved into it? Was it an active fortress that was granted to him, or are these his family's ancestral lands?
    3. Karn Serrand would have been a mere 20 years old in 572 CY and just beginning his career as a paladin (2nd or 3rd level at best). Who was master of Tarthax before him (assuming it wasn't abandoned)?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:14 am  

    1) I think you're right for the reason you stated. I think Chathold was an anomaly, as far as pre-War Almorian sites being on the south side of the Harp.

    2-3) I think they are his ancestral lands. He might even have been the castle's lord before the war. I don't see being a novice paladin as an impediment to inheriting a fief. Feudalism isn't really a merit-based system. Smile
    From the description I assume the Serrands are an offshoot of the Rax-Nyronds. My thinking on this is because he traces his lineage to Yalranda, and her son Manshen took the Rax-Nyrond name. I'm assuming that was the name of his mother's family, although it could be he married into the Rax-Nyrond family and took his wife's name, although I think that less likely. Possibly also, he could have made up Rax as a name and combined it with Nyrond if his mother or wife had been of that house.
    Regardless, I can easily see the Serrand family having held title to Tarthax/Goldbolt for some time, as there is mention of other (diluted) descendants of the Rax-Nyrond line in the area. Carwend is pretty pragmatic, but also the kind of person who doesn't change something that is working, so if the Serrands held Goldbolt before the war I don't see him changing anything as long as they were faithful vassals.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:53 pm  

    The impression within ItU;
    The castle is a familial fief and Karn Serrand changed the name of the castle due to a vision he received from his patron Rao.

    As a stalwart paladin in good standing I find it difficult to accept that he plays fast and loose with his noble heritage for political advantage. He is considered a bit of an oddity for the pragmatic western lands. So I would sooner believe that his ancestry is legitimate rather than a noble deception.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:13 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    I think they are his ancestral lands. He might even have been the castle's lord before the war. I don't see being a novice paladin as an impediment to inheriting a fief. Feudalism isn't really a merit-based system. Smile

    Well, you don't get to 13th level by sitting around in your castle, so I'm presuming that he was out adventuring in his 20s. Remember too that this is AD&D, so he shouldn't have his castle until name level. Otherwise, both of you gentlemen make good points. Now if I could only get some feedback in my Eldritch Lords of Rel Deven and Temple of Lothan threads.... Razz
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    Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:24 pm  

    I feel for you Prata. Especially when I see a thread about how to pronounce Aaqa having more replies than this one which is much more useful.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:46 pm  

    It's not easy being green.... Sad
    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:33 am  

    There's no one with a castle in your World of Greyhawk of less than name level? I think of that as a guideline for PC advancement, not a law of nature that all forms of government are beholden to.
    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:43 am  

    DMPrata wrote:
    Well, you don't get to 13th level by sitting around in your castle . . . so he shouldn't have his castle until name level.


    Aren't we talking about an NPC? And wasn't something said about "a familial fief?" (Courtesy of Crag)

    What does "level advancement" have to do with an NPC's inheritance?

    Or did I miss something in this discussion? Confused
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    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:16 am  

    The point still stands that Karn Serrand didn't reach 13th level by sitting around in his castle. He had to be off dungeon delving and such. Generally speaking, that's not a proper way for the lord of a castle to behave, so I would tend to believe that he was not master of the estate during his early adventuring years.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:16 am  
    Gaining XP and a Castle without "killing stuff"

    DMPrata wrote:
    The point still stands that Karn Serrand didn't reach 13th level by sitting around in his castle. He had to be off dungeon delving and such. ...


    This goes to that age-old misconception that the only way to gain XP is to "adventure" and kill stuff.

    The way XP (and subsequently, levels) is to be challenged. One can gain XP by being challenged at skills and things, and still overcome challenges and gain XP. It doesn't matter whether it's through combat or Diplomacy, if they overcome a challenge appropriate for their level, they gain XP. And as long as they're getting in a little training each morning in the courtyard with their men-at-arms, their Base Attack Bonus (or THAC0 for some of us) still goes up.

    This Lord can certainly have gained levels without "killing stuff" or "adventuring". But, beyond that, as has been pointed out, name-level is a guide for PCs, not NPCs. A King could be a third level Aristocrat. doesn't make him a a knowledgable, effective or capable ruler, but, you know - plenty of prefects aren't. Happy
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    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:27 pm  

    I tend to agree with DMPrata's interpretation of Karn Serrand as a former adventurer, though, not as someone who's sat in his castle ruling his fief most of his life. As a paladin, he ought to have been doing paladin things at some point. He might have left his castle in the care of his seneschal while he was off hunting the Questing Beast or whatever, though. There are plenty of kings and lords in Arthurian tales who go off adventuring instead of tending to their responsibilities at home. Or think of Richard Lionheart off crusading while his brother looked after things in England.

    And, of course, it's equally possible that he's new to his position, having been granted the castle for his great deeds after the old rulers died out or were stripped of their lands (though it seems unlikely that the rulers of the Great Kingdom or Ahlissa would think well of a paladin's deeds). But since most of the rulers of the nations of the Flanaess are name level, with PC classes, I'd say that doesn't have to be true, and probably isn't the norm. Belvor got the throne of Furyondy through heredity, even though he managed to become a name-level paladin.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:20 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:
    The point still stands that Karn Serrand didn't reach 13th level by sitting around in his castle. He had to be off dungeon delving and such. Generally speaking, that's not a proper way for the lord of a castle to behave, so I would tend to believe that he was not master of the estate during his early adventuring years.


    I wouldn't consider fighting on the border with Almor for 10+ years to be sitting around a castle. He may well have been adventuring, but it doesn't seem to fit with his character. Hunting the Questing Beast doesn't really seem to fit with someone described as a "protector and an endurer."
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:24 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    I wouldn't consider fighting on the border with Almor for 10+ years to be sitting around a castle.

    My understanding is that the border with Almor was pretty stable during the 570s (when Karn would have been most active). Who would he have been fighting?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:05 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:
    smillan_31 wrote:
    I wouldn't consider fighting on the border with Almor for 10+ years to be sitting around a castle.

    My understanding is that the border with Almor was pretty stable during the 570s (when Karn would have been most active). Who would he have been fighting?


    There was a declared state of war between the GK and Almor by 578. The LGG says there were "semiregular skirmishes between Aerdy's South Province and Nyrond" before open warfare was fought. Where were Nyrondal and Ahlissan forces fighting these skirmishes if not the Almorian borderlands? Maybe Serrend would have stayed out of these skirmishes for whatever reason but he would have been fighting at least between 578-580 and 583-585, though his enemy changed from Almor-Nyrond to Duke Szeffrin in the latter period. Okay 6 years instead of 10+. Either way it doesn't equal sitting around the castle.
    GreySage

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    Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:53 am  

    A paladin , particularly a paladin of Rao, who does nothing but lead campaigns against a good-aligned country seems as poor excuse for a paladin. I think he should have earned his levels fighting evil.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:49 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Where were Nyrondal and Ahlissan forces fighting these skirmishes if not the Almorian borderlands?

    Relmor Bay
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:51 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    A paladin , particularly a paladin of Rao, who does nothing but lead campaigns against a good-aligned country seems as poor excuse for a paladin. I think he should have earned his levels fighting evil.


    I never said I presumed he was leading campaigns against a good aligned country. Defending your fief against incursions from a hostile neighbor is not really un-paladin-like behavior, especially for a paladin of Rao.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:03 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:
    smillan_31 wrote:
    Where were Nyrondal and Ahlissan forces fighting these skirmishes if not the Almorian borderlands?

    Relmor Bay


    Granted but why Relmor Bay and not on the border? It's possible he was running around adventuring in the early to mid 70's, but there was open warfare for six years between the GK and Almor from 78 on. If he wasn't the lord of or at least heir to Goldbolt at that time, why would he be off fighting monsters while his family lands are being overrun by invaders? If he is defending his lands why wouldn't he be gaining levels? Maybe he would have been off fighting evil during the war years out of a greater sense of duty to his god than his family, but it doesn't seem to fit with his character. If he wasn't the lord or heir why would a liege who doesn't really care for him appoint him to be the lord of that fief? It just doesn't add up to me.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:21 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Granted but why Relmor Bay and not on the border? It's possible he was running around adventuring in the early to mid 70's, but there was open warfare for six years between the GK and Almor from 78 on. If he wasn't the lord of or at least heir to Goldbolt at that time, why would he be off fighting monsters while his family lands are being overrun by invaders? If he is defending his lands why wouldn't he be gaining levels? Maybe he would have been off fighting evil during the war years out of a greater sense of duty to his god than his family, but it doesn't seem to fit with his character. If he wasn't the lord or heir why would a liege who doesn't really care for him appoint him to be the lord of that fief? It just doesn't add up to me.

    Well, first, Nyrond & Ahlissa didn't have a border. Almor was a sovereign state pre-Wars, not a battleground. Second, I was trying to suss out who the master of Tarthax was in 572 CY, well before the Great Kingdom's war with the Golden League. I don't dispute that Karn Serrand would have returned home from his adventuring with the declaration of war in 578 CY. I also get the sense, though, that Almor was not the aggressor in those battles, so he probably wouldn't have needed to defend his lands so much.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:35 am  

    First, I never said Almor was a "battleground" or a fief of Nyrond pre-578, or that Ahlissa and Nyrond share a border. I'm making an assumption based on what we know, that there was a certain amount of skirmishing going on before a formal state of war existed. We know there was skirmishing. You presume it was purely naval, I presume it was both land and naval. There was definitely a joint naval command between Almor and Nyrond by 578. My assumption is that if there are hostile naval operations going on there are probably hostile land operations (cross border raiding by Almorian and some supporting Nyrondal forces) going on. Two opinions. Neither one of us can prove either one.
    Secondly, Almor was the aggressor, though probably just by way of taking pre-emptive action. Most of 578 was spent by Almor building up its levies and waiting for Nyrondal reinforcements to arrive so they could invade the Great Kingdom (DRG #65 p. 12). It was Almor and Nyrond that declared war on the GK, not the other way around. Almor was reacting to events in the South Province and Iron League and thought they had no choice but to invade the GK before they were invaded (DRG #63 p. 15). Herzog Chelor, or other forces of the GK probably would have gotten around to invading Almor, but (again, only my opinion) it probably would have taken some time (a year or tow) before that was going to happen, since there's no evidence that GK troops were massing along the Almor border. North Province had been asking for aid from the Overking during this period due to incursions by Nyrond and Almor into southern Bone March. Strangely, aid ended up coming from the Sea Barons. The dates on these actions in North Province aren't spelled out, but 577 is a pretty safe estimate since later articles were discussing events in Needfest of 578. Those Dragon articles have alot of really good information in them, including that the Urnst states, while not part of the Golden League were supporting it, even to the extent of supplying troops for the invasion of Ahlissa.
    Anyway, sorry to have hijacked your thread with this debate. Back to your original question, I think it was probably a relative of Karn Serrand (Father, brother, uncle, whatever) who was lord of Goldbolt in the early 570's, although he could have already been lord. Either way, it seems to me the Serrands were an established family and for reasons I've given above that a member of that family, whether it was Karn or not, was the lord of Goldbolt.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed May 12, 2010 1:20 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    ...Back to your original question, I think it was probably a relative of Karn Serrand (Father, brother, uncle, whatever) who was lord of Goldbolt in the early 570's, although he could have already been lord. Either way, it seems to me the Serrands were an established family and for reasons I've given above that a member of that family, whether it was Karn or not, was the lord of Goldbolt.


    -Agreed, it is probably his ancestral land. The previous lord was probably his father.

    DMPrata wrote:
    ...Well, you don't get to 13th level by sitting around in your castle, so I'm presuming that he was out adventuring in his 20s. Remember too that this is AD&D, so he shouldn't have his castle until name level...


    -Some are right about him being an NPC, and that rule not applying. But even if he were a PC, it wouldn't prevent him from inheriting a castle from whoever established it to begin with (probably a Ftr9 or higher).

    Icarus wrote:
    ...This goes to that age-old misconception that the only way to gain XP is to "adventure" and kill stuff...


    -That too. See my recent post on Population and Class Levels, although I think Lord Serrand have had plenty of time to pick up XPs by killing stuff as well.

    rasgon wrote:
    A paladin , particularly a paladin of Rao, who does nothing but lead campaigns against a good-aligned country seems as poor excuse for a paladin. I think he should have earned his levels fighting evil.


    -Paladins are Lawful as well as Good. If Serrand's Ahlissan lord went to war 578-584, he'd go to, whether his enemy happens to be led by Goodguys or not. The Relmor Bay Campaign was sort of a traditional nation state border dispute, not a battle of GOOD vs. EVIL. Even the Greyhawk War had that aspect. So, he'd fight decently and honorably, but he'd fight. If you were Almorian or Nyrondese, and you had to surrender, Lord Serrand would have been a good choice to surrender to. Happy

    Interesting, though. Perhaps he was conflicted? A little psychological complexity? Question
    GreySage

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    Wed May 12, 2010 4:22 pm  

    I don't know, I think there's a strong chance of a paladin who kills too many "goodguys" losing his paladinhood. He's responsible not just to his feudal lord, but to his god and his code of ethics, and his responsibilities to the latter two are no less lawful than his responsibilities to the feudal system.The conflicting oaths might put him in an impossible situation where he'd lose his paladinhood no matter what, however.

    A paladin is a champion against evil. If he's not fighting evil, the gods don't need him to be a paladin. If a fighter without a paladin's special divinely-granted powers against evil can do his job equally well, why should the gods invest energy in granting him those powers? It's not a matter of him sinning, necessarily, but if he's wasting all his time with border wars against a good-aligned nation, it'd be better to give those powers to someone else. The powers that be might consider him a decent and honest man who obeys his lawful responsibilities as best he can, but if he's not battling the forces of chaos and darkness, he's no paladin. He can continue to be a decent and honest fighter instead.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu May 13, 2010 10:11 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    ...I think there's a strong chance of a paladin who kills too many "goodguys" losing his paladinhood. He's responsible not just to his feudal lord, but to his god and his code of ethics, and his responsibilities to the latter two are no less lawful than his responsibilities to the feudal system.The conflicting oaths might put him in an impossible situation where he'd lose his paladinhood no matter what, however...


    -I did mention "psychological complexity" didn't I? Laughing

    Of course, not every (or even most) Nyrondese or Almorrans were "good guys", and Serrand certainly wasn't the only "good guy" fighting on the Ahlissan side.

    rasgon wrote:
    ...A paladin is a champion against evil. If he's not fighting evil, the gods don't need him to be a paladin...It's not a matter of him sinning, necessarily, but if he's wasting all his time with border wars against a good-aligned nation


    -There are all sorts of ways to fight evil, and all sorts of opportunities. Taking a few weeks every so often to fulfill one's duty to one's lord wouldn't neccessarily get in the way. Rao as god would be in line with that sort of thing, I think (Heironyous would not). Particularly if Serrand could have set a good example of how a Lawful Good guy behaves by doing so.

    Hmm... a military adventure set in 578 where Serrand was the enemy?

    Another option is that Serrand simply found a way to avoid taking the field, but ducking controversy would be even less the Way of the Paladin, I think, although it could be seen as "protecting the flock" (in line with Raoan doctrine, I guess).

    Or perhaps he was a rebel? But then you have to explain why he didn't get squashed in the meantime.
    GreySage

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    Thu May 13, 2010 2:34 pm  

    I was protesting the idea of a paladin who "does nothing" but battle the forces of Good. I think he was probably doing paladin things for much of his experience points, not just fighting in morally ambiguous wars. It's possible his father (or other predecessor) was minding the castle during that period.

    I did put "goodguy" in quotes, but Almor is a good-aligned nation, and killing Almorian soldiers in battle is, at the very least, an ambiguous act. While there were surely plenty of good-aligned characters on the side of the Great Kingdom, paladins have a special role, and there are demands on them that don't exist for other characters.

    I certainly don't think it's impossible for a paladin to fight in a battle whose morality is less than clear cut, but they should be primarily performing activities where a paladin's special abilities - which are mainly focused on battling evil - are of some use. Otherwise, why do they deserve to be a paladin?
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu May 13, 2010 3:59 pm  

    How is Karn evil for opposing the Almorian/Nyrondese invasion?
    Karn would be a poor paladin if he did not seek to defend his lands and a peasant doesn't care if the spear that is thrust through him is held be a nyrondese soldier.

    How are these "good guys" from the GK perspective?
    Remember the Almorian/Nyrondese attacked first in a sneak attack at that. Osson ravaged the entire western lands. Perhaps this is where the "protector and endure" come in. Since the castle didn't fall he endured the siege and protected his people.

    smillan_31 post has got me thinking about the greater strategic aims. Rather then an isolated incident the entire offensive could be part of a grand plan. A plan that provides reasons for the raid of Osson and the frenzied pace of the Nyrondese as well as places the GK in a more competent light then at first blush.

    Alliance: Nyrondese and Iron League with Urnst States offer financial assistance.

    The alliance need to negate the numerical superiority of the GK and so a plan is devised to tie down significant GK forces thereby providing opportunities for local martial superiority.

    - Signs of military mobilization cause the alliance to strike first.
    - Osson forms a cavalry force for speed and catches the Western Lands unprepared.
    - Western Lands ravaged
    - However the southern forces withdraw to the coasts and to the south to defend Zelradton.
    - The alliance had expected the South Province to send forces to the Western Lands leaving the southern ports vulnerable. A planned Nyrondese invasion of Prymp to cripple the southern fleet becomes merely another destructive raid, well done Reynard Exclamation
    - Osson knows he must tie down GK forces and buy time for both Almor and his Nyrondese allies to exploit the confusion.
    - Osson therefore travels southeast
    - Darmen forces hold the Thelly River which along with the reinforced Zelradton take the southern Iron League out of the picture but allows the forces of Osson to cause havoc within the central plains.
    - The proposed Nyrondese thrust in the north becomes bogged down within the Bone March as the Fists and Humanoids prove surprisingly stubborn.
    - However the North Province feels threatened
    - Overking in frustration sends the ill-suited Glories Armry against Osson.
    - Osson defeats Glories Army upon the plains and then"liberates" Medegia.
    - Osson could threaten Rauxes but Nyrondese could break through in the north so Central Armies are tied down can't be sent north or south.
    - North Province formalizes alliance with the Bone March to halt Nyrondese advance. Nydrondese thrust slows so much Urnst "volunteers" offered.
    - Lordship of the Isles join SB. SB interest in the south. Allows the Overking to instruct Sea Barons to aid the Northern Province.
    - The emergence of the SB allows the South Province and Darmen to send troops to the central plains
    - The Bone March Pact and Sea Baron reinforcements causes the Overking to believe the northern threat is contained. Sends brutal penal troops southeast.
    - Osson must break out before overwhelming GK forces arrive. He decides to break out to the west as the fertile plains are more suited to his force then the Grandwood and Lone Heath.
    - If Osson is successful he could make a dash for Almor or even wheel northeast and threaten Rauxes.
    - Darmen forces claim victory and Osson is crushed. Survivors flee into Sunndi.
    - Overking consolidates his martial forces and crushes Medegia and Almor.
    - GK and Nyrond exhaust each other.

    Accepting Almor and Nyrondese cooperation from the outset the actions are much more coherent then merely another pointless Osson raid. The alliance strategy depended upon the Osson remaining at large as long as possible. The Nyrondese had to maintain an almost frantic pace to overun enough land and frontier forces to provide a substantial buffer so it could exhaust the GK on its own land when it finally did consolidate its superior forces.

    Unfortunately, three main assumptions failed to materialize
    - Rather then rush to the defense of the Western Lands the South Province reinforced its naval bases and the south. Which preserved the fleet as a threat and allowed the south to be held which on a tactical level divided the Iron League States.
    - The northern resistance was much fiercer then expected and the gains needed never occured. Which also helps explains Archbold's almost desperate desire to keep the Nyrondese cavalry advancing.
    - Emergence of the SB eliminated the threat to the GK of the southern Iron League States in the short term. This allowed the overking to send reinforcements north other then his central forces. This provided the Overking with the ability to launch a powerful assault on Almor and Nyrond before the collapse of the GK.

    Sorry its so long - feel kinda bad
    Hope some of you find it of interest at least Embarassed
    GreySage

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    Thu May 13, 2010 4:29 pm  

    Crag wrote:
    How is Karn evil for opposing the Almorian/Nyrondese invasion?


    No one said he was. He's just not doing what a paladin is meant to do. As long as he performs his duties as a paladin as well as his duties as a feudal knight, there's no problem. The problem is if he doesn't do paladin things at all. If everything he does are the same things any feudal warrior would do in his situation, he shouldn't be a paladin. He should be an ordinary fighter. He can be a good-aligned fighter, but there's no point in him having paladin abilities. There are lots of good fighters out there who aren't paladins.

    Quote:
    How are these "good guys" from the GK perspective?


    It's not the Great Kingdom's perspective that matters when it comes to a paladin of Rao's abilities. It's Rao's perspective. Defending your homeland against an aggressor isn't evil, but neither is propping up a despotic, devil-aligned tyranny (which the Great Kingdom ultimately is) unambiguously good. Border skirmishes where a paladin fights soldiers from a good-aligned nation are morally ambiguous, and a paladin has a higher calling he has to make time for - or he doesn't need to be a paladin. It's nothing personal, but it's not what Karn Serrand was given his powers for.

    A certain amount of moral ambiguity is fine. I just said that a paladin who does nothing but involve himself in battles where there's no clear moral high ground isn't much of a paladin. If he's off saving damsels and fighting wicked orc tribes in the meantime, that's another matter. But if he doesn't adventure, and all he's doing his maintaining his ancestral lands, he should just be a fighter.

    Quote:
    Sorry its so long - feel kinda bad


    Why would that make you feel bad? You should write as much as you want - if people don't want to read it, they don't have to. I'm sorry I don't have anything useful to add, though.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu May 13, 2010 6:48 pm  

    It was off topic and I did ramble Wink

    What was suppose to be a couple quick paragraphs turned into an recitation of Osson's ride.

    Was the Greyhawk Wars a conflict of overarching aims or merely a series of isolated battles.

    I am eager to hear any opinions
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    Sat May 15, 2010 10:17 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    It's not the Great Kingdom's perspective that matters when it comes to a paladin of Rao's abilities. It's Rao's perspective...


    -Agreed.

    rasgon wrote:
    ...No one said he was. He's just not doing what a paladin is meant to do. As long as he performs his duties as a paladin as well as his duties as a feudal knight, there's no problem. The problem is if he doesn't do paladin things at all. If everything he does are the same things any feudal warrior would do in his situation, he shouldn't be a paladin. He should be an ordinary fighter...


    -My point was that acting as a fedal lord and being a paladin are not mutually exclusive. He's he only supposed to chop the heads of dragons or drive stakes thru vampires hearts? If so, then he's in big trouble, because his cousin is still hanging around... Razz

    Crag wrote:
    ...What was suppose to be a couple quick paragraphs turned into an recitation of Osson's ride...


    -Actally, what WAS the exact route of Osson's ride? What was Serrand doing THEN?
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    Sat May 15, 2010 8:19 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    -Actally, what WAS the exact route of Osson's ride? What was Serrand doing THEN?


    South through the Thelly Forest into Ahlissa. Assuming his army issued from Chathold, and it was definitely meant to be a swift-moving cavalry force, they would have bypassed Goldbolt in doing this. The other half of the army "aggressively patroled and probed the frontier". The massed Aerdi army marched south to meet Osson's cavalry force, since Ahlissa's forces were massed in the west for an invasion of Irongate. Osson avoided this army by riding south into Sunndi to attack and decimate the Glorioles army. He then led his army north over the Glorioles to attack Nulbish, but failed in his siege. At that point he rode into Medegia, hoping to escape by sea via Lordship of the Isles ships, after wreaking havoc there, but they were trapped by the Scarlet Brotherhood-backed coup in the Isles taking that state out of the Iron League. in the Spring they planned to break out to Sunndi by crossing the Hestmark Highlands, but the Aerdi army crushed them when they tried to cross the Flanmi River.
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    Mon May 17, 2010 8:55 pm  

    This topic made me find the answer to a question I've asked myself before, where exactly was the border of Almor with the GK? I finally found my answer by looking that the map in Greyhawk Wars. While not the most detailed map ever, it is pretty clear from it that Goldbolt lay within the borders of Almor before the wars. How it escaped the invasion of Almor and Day of Dust, who knows? Maybe it was too strong and a siege would have worn the GK army out when it needed to be fresh to attack Chathold.

    Accepting this, I see 2 possibilities, although there could certainly be more. 1) Serrand's family ruled Goldbolt as an Almorian fief, held it during the war, and he, as holder of Goldbolt somehow ended up as an ally of Carwend, maybe to make common cause against Szeffrin, and he no longer had a feudal lord. Not a very likely scenario, but not beyond the realm of possibility.
    2) GK forces took Goldbolt, and Carwend or some other GK personage made Serrand master of Goldbolt at least right before Chathold was razed. This doesn't seem very likely to me either.
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    Tue May 18, 2010 8:49 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    South through the Thelly Forest into Ahlissa. Assuming his army issued from Chathold, and it was definitely meant to be a swift-moving cavalry force, they would have bypassed Goldbolt in doing this...


    smillan_31 wrote:
    This topic made me find the answer to a question I've asked myself before, where exactly was the border of Almor with the GK? I finally found my answer by looking that the map in Greyhawk Wars. While not the most detailed map ever, it is pretty clear from it that Goldbolt lay within the borders of Almor before the wars...


    -Thanks, I don't have "Greyhawk Wars" with me. At least that avoids the need to explain Serrand as an Ahlissan lord. Sorry for clogging up space! Wink

    smillan_31 wrote:


    1) Serrand's family ruled Goldbolt as an Almorian fief, held it during the war, and he, as holder of Goldbolt somehow ended up as an ally of Carwend, maybe to make common cause against Szeffrin, and he no longer had a feudal lord. Not a very likely scenario, but not beyond the realm of possibility.

    2) GK forces took Goldbolt, and Carwend or some other GK personage made Serrand master of Goldbolt at least right before Chathold was razed. This doesn't seem very likely to me either.


    #2 seems less likely (and less neccessary) now. As for #1, historically (FWIW), aristocratic families often owned land which made them liable to opposing lords, particularly if the lands had once been united (as Almor had been with the GK). Perhaps this was an example?
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    Tue May 18, 2010 1:00 pm  

    The ItU is clear:
    Goldbolt is an ahlissan castle on the almorian border. Within the western lands the diverse nobles shattered into various philosophies (CE, N, LG). Karn is part of the LG philosophical branch and shows that the GK is more complex then merely Good vs Evil. The authors wanted something a little more nuanced then just Black Hat GK vs White Hat Nyrond.

    Goldbolt is Ahlissan
    Karn is a paladin of Rao
    Opposed the invasion of his lands
    Willing to work albeit begrudingly with other western nobles even evil ones
    Ultimate goal to rebuild and defend the western lands

    Some can accept a paladin that behaves so but others can't...
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    Tue May 18, 2010 3:52 pm  

    Crag wrote:
    The ItU is clear:
    Goldbolt is an ahlissan castle on the almorian border. Within the western lands the diverse nobles shattered into various philosophies (CE, N, LG). Karn is part of the LG philosophical branch and shows that the GK is more complex then merely Good vs Evil. The authors wanted something a little more nuanced then just Black Hat GK vs White Hat Nyrond.

    Goldbolt is Ahlissan
    Karn is a paladin of Rao
    Opposed the invasion of his lands
    Willing to work albeit begrudingly with other western nobles even evil ones
    Ultimate goal to rebuild and defend the western lands

    Some can accept a paladin that behaves so but others can't...

    If Ivid the Undying were clear, I don't think we'd need two pages of discussion. The text never explicitly states what side of the border Goldbolt was on before the Wars. That's what we're trying to resolve here.

    I think it's perfectly reasonable to suppose that the lands around Tarthax belonged to the Serrand family (kin of House Cranden) prior to Almor's secession. They probably found themselves doing an awkward political dance after Almor broke away. I'd posit that the castle was held by Karn Serrand's non-paladin (and non-LG) father during the Wars. While his son was off doing paladin things, the elder Serrand struck an opportunistic deal that spared his lands from the general razing of Almor.

    Karn literally inherited his current (c. 585 CY) political situation. Almor is no more. There's nothing he can do about that now, except try to preserve his lands and strengthen his forces for the eventual showdown with Szeffrin. Lawful good doesn't have to mean lawful stupid.
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    Tue May 18, 2010 5:13 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:
    I think it's perfectly reasonable to suppose that the lands around Tarthax belonged to the Serrand family (kin of House Cranden) prior to Almor's secession. They probably found themselves doing an awkward political dance after Almor broke away. I'd posit that the castle was held by Karn Serrand's non-paladin (and non-LG) father during the Wars. While his son was off doing paladin things, the elder Serrand struck an opportunistic deal that spared his lands from the general razing of Almor.

    Karn literally inherited his current (c. 585 CY) political situation. Almor is no more. There's nothing he can do about that now, except try to preserve his lands and strengthen his forces for the eventual showdown with Szeffrin. Lawful good doesn't have to mean lawful stupid.


    That's the best sounding scenario to me so far. The earliest we can date Karn as the lord of Tarthax is "... shortly after the fall of Chathold", which was the 17th of Goodmonth, 584 CY, when the storm giant prophetess, Hierranea, presented herself to him there. So it's reasonable to assume he was lord there at least by late 584 CY. It's also easy to come up with several scenarios as to how his father could have met his end, given the proximity to Szeffrin, who would have felt that he was rightful overlord of those lands.
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    Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:13 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    DMPrata wrote:
    I think it's perfectly reasonable to suppose that the lands around Tarthax belonged to the Serrand family (kin of House Cranden) prior to Almor's secession. They probably found themselves doing an awkward political dance after Almor broke away. I'd posit that the castle was held by Karn Serrand's non-paladin (and non-LG) father during the Wars. While his son was off doing paladin things, the elder Serrand struck an opportunistic deal that spared his lands from the general razing of Almor.

    Karn literally inherited his current (c. 585 CY) political situation. Almor is no more. There's nothing he can do about that now, except try to preserve his lands and strengthen his forces for the eventual showdown with Szeffrin. Lawful good doesn't have to mean lawful stupid.


    That's the best sounding scenario to me so far. The earliest we can date Karn as the lord of Tarthax is "... shortly after the fall of Chathold", which was the 17th of Goodmonth, 584 CY, when the storm giant prophetess, Hierranea, presented herself to him there. So it's reasonable to assume he was lord there at least by late 584 CY. It's also easy to come up with several scenarios as to how his father could have met his end, given the proximity to Szeffrin, who would have felt that he was rightful overlord of those lands.

    I found a hole in my theory that Karn's father sold out to the GK:
    Carl Sargent, in Ivid the Undying, wrote:
    Serrand is proud of his lineage, which he claims goes back to Queen Yalranda herself, and of its unswerving allegiance to the ethos of Lawful Good throughout the centuries.

    That "unswerving allegiance" bit gives me pause. That's a pretty absolute statement. Maybe your first idea (that Tarthax was seen as irrelevant and/or too defensible) is the best answer after all.
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    Wed May 08, 2013 11:09 am  

    Bump for "Orc Stereotypes" thread:
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=59305#59305
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